Words that Calvinists IGNORE

[bbbbbbb]

<musing> . . . pitiful understanding of the Bible

Is that the best, and only, response you can provide? To denigrate another's interpretation of the Bible as being pitiful is one thing, but to have no coherent interpretation of one's own is quite another. Please provide your understanding of these verses.

 

[Ormly]

Is that the best, and only, response you can provide? To denigrate another's interpretation of the Bible as being pitiful is one thing,

Wasn't it pitiful in your estimation?

 

[JimfromOhio]

<musing> . . . pitiful understanding of the Bible

Sarcasm is sneering, jesting, or mocking a person, situation or thing. Sarcasm's aim is to belittle someone, and to laugh at their expense as "cutting" with it. Sarcasm has no place in the believer's life because it is unbecoming a Christian (1 Corinthians 13:5 says "Love does not act unbecomingly"). Ephesians 5:4 "Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving." Sarcasm humor may not be funny to the victim but its funny to those who understand the barb as it feeds their intellectual egos. Sarcasm is scornful, contemptuous and taunting. Proverbs 21:24 The proud and arrogant man-"Mocker" is his name; he behaves with overweening pride.

 

[Ormly]

Sarcasm is sneering, jesting, or mocking a person, situation or thing. Sarcasm's aim is to belittle someone, and to laugh at their expense as "cutting" with it. Sarcasm has no place in the believer's life because it is unbecoming a Christian (1 Corinthians 13:5 says "Love does not act unbecomingly"). Ephesians 5:4 "Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving." Sarcasm humor may not be funny to the victim but its funny to those who understand the barb as it feeds their intellectual egos. Sarcasm is scornful, contemptuous and taunting. Proverbs 21:24 The proud and arrogant man-"Mocker" is his name; he behaves with overweening pride.

I intended it to be a bit jarring. There has been no love from this person but only his mocking of everyone else's faith while he offers up his "pitiful" replies.

 

[nill]

That doesn't justify returning the same.

 

[nobdysfool]

That doesn't justify returning the same.

You've just seen how he justifies his responses to any Calvinist. He does not speak as Jesus would, and he does not exhibit the character and patience of Christ in any way.

 

[chestertonrules]

lol..The purpose was eternal, and it also involved the salvation of the gentiles...

NO kidding. You still haven't addressed these explicit scripture passages which tell us God's purpose.

God wants all men to seek him. That is why he created us.

God wants all men to be saved. God loves the world.

Acts 17

26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

1 Tim 2

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father: that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

 

[nill]

chestertonrules:
"NO kidding. You still haven't addressed these explicit scripture passages which tell us God's purpose."​

He did, in the very sentence you quoted.

chestertonrules:
"1 Tim 2

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."​

Correct. All men, not just Jews.

chestertonrules:
"John 3:16 For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. "​

Correct. The world, not just Jews. This works in well with the "whoever" or "everyone who" part--not just Jews.



A major part of Christ's accomplishments we see revealed in Ephesians 2:11-22 and spelled out in numerous other passages in the Bible.

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."

 

[chestertonrules]

chestertonrules:
"NO kidding. You still haven't addressed these explicit scripture passages which tell us God's purpose."
​

He did, in the very sentence you quoted.

chestertonrules:
"1 Tim 2

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
​

Correct. All men, not just Jews.

chestertonrules:
"John 3:16 For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. "
​

Correct. The world, not just Jews. This works in well with the "whoever" or "everyone who" part--not just Jews.



A major part of Christ's accomplishments we see revealed in Ephesians 2:11-22 and spelled out in numerous other passages in the Bible.

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."

ALL MEN. EVERY MAN. THE WORLD.


Not just the Calvinists!!

Jesus did not limit his atonement.

 

[nill]

chestertonrules:
"ALL MEN. EVERY MAN. THE WORLD."​

Yes, every person. Not just Jews, but Gentiles, as well.

chestertonrules:
"Not just the Calvinists!!"​

Correct, not just Calvinists, and not even for all Calvinists.

chestertonrules:
"Jesus did not limit his atonement."​

He did. He didn't atone for people who don't believe in him, did he? Otherwise, they wouldn't have to pay for their sins.

 

[chestertonrules]

chestertonrules:
"ALL MEN. EVERY MAN. THE WORLD."
​

Yes, every person. Not just Jews, but Gentiles, as well.

chestertonrules:
"Not just the Calvinists!!"
​

Correct, not just Calvinists, and not even for all Calvinists.

chestertonrules:
"Jesus did not limit his atonement."
​

He did. He didn't atone for people who don't believe in him, did he? Otherwise, they wouldn't have to pay for their sins.

He atoned for the sins of the whole world.

All we have to do is accept his gift.

The weakness in on our side, not his.

 

[nill]

chestertonrules:
"He atoned for the sins of the whole world.

All we have to do is accept his gift.

The weakness in on our side, not his."​

That is not what an atonement is. Atonement = payment. If all sins are atoned for, then no sins will be paid by the sinners. It is a given that not every person is reconciled to God. Thus, not every person's sins are atoned for.

 

[chestertonrules]

chestertonrules:
"He atoned for the sins of the whole world.

All we have to do is accept his gift.

The weakness in on our side, not his."
​

That is not what an atonement is. Atonement = payment. If all sins are atoned for, then no sins will be paid by the sinners. It is a given that not every person is reconciled to God. Thus, not every person's sins are atoned for.

Why are the sins of some not atoned for? Why is it a given?

 

[Ormly]

chestertonrules:
"He atoned for the sins of the whole world.

All we have to do is accept his gift.

The weakness in on our side, not his."
​

That is not what an atonement is. Atonement = payment. If all sins are atoned for, then no sins will be paid by the sinners. It is a given that not every person is reconciled to God. Thus, not every person's sins are atoned for.

Atonement in this case has to do with wiping away of Adam's transgression that the penalty of death; eternal separation from God that affects both the just and the unjust, the righteous and the unrighteous, be removed. In that light all men are affected by the sacrifice of Jesus, hence all men have been atoned for. What man does with the atonement; how he treats it in his knowledge, is another matter. "He who believes the report and is baptised into Christ, will be saved". He who believes not, will be lost.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Christ&#8217;s death objectively atoned for all the sin of the world; by believing we receive this objective atonement and its benefits. I disagree with Lutheranism's believe that when Jesus died on the cross He atoned for the sins of all people of all time, even those who have not or will not come to faith in Christ. However, Reformed churches have historically taught a "limited atonement" of Christ, i.e., that Christ's death on the cross atoned only for the sins of "the elect".

 

[nobdysfool]

Why are the sins of some not atoned for? Why is it a given?

If all sins are atoned for by Christ, then there remains no more punishment or judgment for those sins, because God cannot demand satisfaction twice, once from Christ, and then again from man. That violates His Justice, as well as making the work of Christ to be of insufficient value, since man is still judged for his sins if he is not in Christ, under the belief that Atonement is universal.

Non-Calvinists don't want to admit it, but the outcome and result of Christ's atonement is limited in their theology also.

The difference between Calvinist doctrine and non-Calvinist doctrine on the Atonement, is why the Atonement is limited in it's outcome and result.

No one seriously argues the sufficiency of the Atonement to cover all the sins of all mankind. No Calvinist would deny the sufficiency of the Atonement. Calvinist doctrine states that the Atonement is Sufficient for all, but Efficient only for the Elect.

Calvinists differentiate between it's value and it's application. The Atonement is efficacious only for those who receive it, for those who believe and receive Christ. For those who do not, it benefits them nothing.

The limiting factor is not God, because He makes many statements throughout scripture that indicate that He will not turn away any who come. He is not preventing them from coming. But none will come who He does not draw, by the Holy Spirit. Only those He draws will come, and will believe and receive. Why? Because it is the work of the Holy Spirit that they believe and receive.

 

[Ormly]

Christ&#8217;s death objectively atoned for all the sin of the world; by believing we receive this objective atonement and its benefits. I disagree with Lutheranism's believe that when Jesus died on the cross He atoned for the sins of all people of all time, even those who have not or will not come to faith in Christ. However, Reformed churches have historically taught a "limited atonement" of Christ, i.e., that Christ's death on the cross atoned only for the sins of "the elect".

This is because you refuse to make the distinction between Adam's trangression that effected the whole world that was satisfied by the atonement that wiped it away, even for those who do not come to Christ, and one's personal sins for which he alone is responsible. Luther was right about what he understood on that account of the atonement. Thankfully we have an advocate with the Father that Adam never enjoyed. But that is again, is just more of what the atonement did for mankind. now if all of mankind would see it to understand it and embrace it everyone would be saved however, most won't. But then again, evangelism is what spreading THAT word is supposed to be about.

 

[JimfromOhio]

This is because you refuse to make the distinction between Adam's trangression that effected the whole world that was satisfied by the atonement that wiped it away, even for those who do not come to Christ, and one's personal sins for which he alone is responsible. Luther was right about what he understood on that account of the atonement. Thankfully we have an advocate with the Father that Adam never enjoyed. But that is again, is just more of what the atonement did for mankind. now if all of mankind would see it to understand it and embrace it everyone would be saved however, most won't. But then again, evangelism is what spreading THAT word is supposed to be about.

Regarding those who can't personally acknowledge their sins, I always believed that Infants, dying in infancy, including those who are mentally disabled are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, (Luke 18:15-17) who works when, and where, and how He pleases: so also are all others who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. It is not up to us but God's convictions and our responses.

 

[Ormly]

Regarding those who can't personally acknowledge their sins, I always believed that Infants, dying in infancy, including those who are mentally disabled are regenerated, .

They don't need regeneration. "Where there is no law, sins penalty is not imputed", ergo, they are without sin; innocent. . .Paul.
Now, if you reply please reference that as a true statement; fact, ok?

 

[JimfromOhio]

They don't need regeneration. "Where there is no law, sins penalty is not imputed", ergo, they are without sin; innocent. . .Paul.
Now, if you reply please reference that as a true statement; fact, ok?

ALL are born sinners, not one is immuned from sin except Christ.