My Apple Challenge IV

[AV1611VET]

Does the apple appear instantaneously? In other words does any time elapse while it is being created ex nihilo? If time does elapse how much?

You walk into a room with a table and a box sitting on top of the table. The box is 1 cubic foot in size and shape, and has no bottom.

I lift the box straight up to show you there is nothing on the table, then I put the box back down.

When I lift the box up a second time, there sits an apple on the table.

Question: Assuming this was an actual act of ex nihilo creation, what would be different than if I would have used sleight-of-hand to produce the apple?

I'm looking for a specific scientific answer.

Note: This answer is extremely easy; don't try to make it harder than it actually is.

The reason for this challenge, is that I'm tired of people saying God used "magic" to create this world. I want to show a clear-cut, easy, scientific difference between creatio ex magic and creatio ex nihilo.

.

 

[Vene]

Gotcha, don't question the analogy.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

.

You didn't answer my question. Perhaps you haven't thought through this challenge sufficiently in spite of the number of times you have posted it.

 

[LeSabot]

• In terms of the Conservation of Mass/Energy principle, explain the difference between the two apples.

If all you are looking for is a basic physics lesson, that can be arranged. However, making this random restriction that we disregard all of physics after about 1930 seems pretty arbitrary. So basically it comes down to whether you are looking to learn something or if you are simply trying to have some gotcha moment based on your own misunderstandings and improper portrayal of the complexity of the situation.

 

[AV1611VET]

If all you are looking for is a basic physics lesson, that can be arranged.

Just a simple answer --- is that asking too much?

I don't need a lesson on Cesium when I ask what time it is.

 

[LeSabot]

Just a simple answer --- is that asking too much?

I don't need a lesson on Cesium when I ask what time it is.

The issue comes in when the simple answer you are looking for is wrong. Just as you said, when you ask what time it is, you don't need a lesson in Cesium. However, if you are actually interested in the nature of time, one would be remiss to not mention that the second is defined in terms of a vibration of a Cesium atom. That is why I ask if you are actually looking to learn something, or if you are just trying to manipulate imprecision to get some jollies. I won't let my students get away with that sort of intellectual laziness, but they would never try it because they are going to school to learn.

 

[Tomk80]

And once again AV wants to get a useless answer to something he thinks is an analogy but in reality is plain nonsense, hoping to gain... What exactly?

Garbage in, garbage out, so the outcome of this thread is probably not surprising anyone.

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

Gen 3:6 And when AV saw that the apple was to be desired to make one wise, he took the apple and did eat, and gave also unto the Creation and Evolution forum; and when they did not bite, he did offer it again and again.

Assyrian has created something interesting ex nihilo. (And by ex nihilo I mean one of AV's "challenge" threads.)

 

[AV1611VET]

The issue comes in when the simple answer you are looking for is wrong.

How do you know what answer I'm looking for? Why don't you try answering it first, and I'll determine if the answer is right or wrong. You seem to be the only one having this problem. Remember: this is just a simple hypothetical; an extra-credit question on the last page of the final.

If my students (if I had any) started filing up to my desk with all sorts of questions like you're doing, I'd just remove the last page and tell them to sit down.

 

[AV1611VET]

And once again AV wants to get a useless answer...

Surprise me --- for once. Show me there indeed is a valid answer to a simple question.

 

[LeSabot]

Wow --- the first post nailed it --- good job!

How do you know what answer I'm looking for?

So, you were saying?

 

[AV1611VET]

So, you were saying?

I know --- this is why I'm totally flabbergasted at why you guys are dragging this on. You evidently just can't leave a good painting alone without carving your initials in the frame, can you?

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

How do you know what answer I'm looking for? Why don't you try answering it first, and I'll determine if the answer is right or wrong.

Because it's already been answered and you've given your "grade" on this answer. Bit hard to give an original answer when you've seen the "correct" answer in the teacher's manual.

You seem to be the only one having this problem.

Er, no actually. Many people have asked for clarifications of this (and other) "challenge" hypothetical(s). In my case, I'd want to know how and what we can measure. Cabal's answer seems correct enough, but how could we actually determine the net energy change of the universe? Do we get to arrange an experiment before it happens in order to make the measurement? In which case, couldn't we just arrange it so that prestidigitation is impossible? (Then the appearance of an apple must be ex nihilo.)

Remember: this is just a simple hypothetical; an extra-credit question on the last page of the final.

Four threads on an EC question? OK...

If my students (if I had any) started filing up to my desk with all sorts of questions like you're doing, I'd just remove the last page and tell them to sit down.

Good thing you don't have any, then, if you'd be that disrespectful of your students. As a teacher, you have a responsibility to write clear questions that test what you want to test. Don't blame the students for a poorly written question.

 

[Cabal]

Cabal's answer seems correct enough, but how could we actually determine the net energy change of the universe?

AV, am I right in saying that in comparison with the original apple challenge, the fact that this is done in a smaller space means we wouldn't necessarily have to know the net energy change of the universe, just a room? The energy of a room shouldn't change that much while the experiment takes place?

 

[Tomk80]

Surprise me --- for once. Show me there indeed is a valid answer to a simple question.

There is no answer to garbage.

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

AV, am I right in saying that in comparison with the original apple challenge, the fact that this is done in a smaller space means we wouldn't necessarily have to know the net energy change of the universe, just a room? The energy of a room shouldn't change that much while the experiment takes place?

Fair enough, but my main point is still how would we measure it (a posteriori)? If we can set up the experiment a priori, it seems the whole question is pointlessly contrived.

 

[Cabal]

Fair enough, but my main point is still how would we measure it (a posteriori)? If we can set up the experiment a priori, it seems the whole question is pointlessly contrived.

I realise that. However, I think measurement of the actual ex nihilo isn't the point this challenge is trying to illustrate - merely that an energy difference would exist were you to compare slight of hand vs ex nihilo. But yeah, the realm of thought experiment stuff only it would seem.

 

[[serious]]

There are ways which you could differentiate a system in which a apple was created ex nihlio and one in which the apple was already present. I would ask the person to create such an apple in a controlled setting in which I could measure the mass of the system throughout the process. If he refused to perform the trick under such conditions I would assume it was slight of hand as other tested apple production tricks are. Either that or David Copperfield is God.

EDIT: I could also look to see if there is a hidden compartment in the box or table. I could also check to see if there were means of gripping the apple in the box so it wouldn't be exposed when the box was lifted. If the guy claimed the compartment was part of the created history of the apple I'd call shenanigans.

*cough* *cough* twin nested hierarchy *cough*

 

[AV1611VET]

Er, no actually. Many people have asked for clarifications of this (and other) "challenge" hypothetical(s). In my case, I'd want to know how and what we can measure. Cabal's answer seems correct enough, but how could we actually determine the net energy change of the universe? Do we get to arrange an experiment before it happens in order to make the measurement? In which case, couldn't we just arrange it so that prestidigitation is impossible? (Then the appearance of an apple must be ex nihilo.)

No!

If you'll bother to read my OP correctly, you'll see I cannot give you what you want here without answering it.

In other words, the answer I'm looking for is simply:

• The amount of mass in the universe would increase in proportion to the amount of mass in the apple.

But what you want me to do --- right from the start --- even before you write down an answer --- is set up some way to measure the amount of mass/energy before the apple was created, and after it was created.

That would give the answer away.

That's like saying:

• Okay, class, here's your final exam. Before I give it to you though, look at the last page and notice the extra credit question: 2 + 3 = ?
• Before you answer this, let me show you how to write the number "5".

 

[AV1611VET]

AV, am I right in saying that in comparison with the original apple challenge, the fact that this is done in a smaller space means we wouldn't necessarily have to know the net energy change of the universe, just a room? The energy of a room shouldn't change that much while the experiment takes place?

Correct --- I'm simply asking what would change --- not how much would it change.