My Apple Challenge IV

[Assyrian]

Not one of these again... Can we just sticky one of the first 3 and put a moratorium on these apple threads?

Gen 3:6 And when AV saw that the apple was to be desired to make one wise, he took the apple and did eat, and gave also unto the Creation and Evolution forum; and when they did not bite, he did offer it again and again.

 

[Greeble]

The reason for this challenge, is that I'm tired of people saying God used "magic" to create this world. I want to show a clear-cut, easy, scientific difference between creatio ex magic and creatio ex nihilo.

Your example illustrates the difference between stage magic and creation of something out of nothing. There's a difference between illusion and the paranormal. Both are called magic.

 

[Nathan Poe]

sorry, but magic is a perfect term for the ad hoc rationalizing creationists do.

Not perfect, since I find "bovine excrement" to be a better term.

 

[Greeble]

Not perfect, since I find "bovine excrement" to be a better term.

Creation Ex Vacca?

 

[milkyway]

"AV1611VET:
God has demonstrated superiority and transcendence over all three of those."


No, "God" hasn't demonstrated anything - not a jot.

Humans, however, have long demonstrated a strong ability to invent special stories to try and explain things they don't understand. Many of these stories involve gods in various forms and are often very interesting. But neither "God" nor gods have shown they exist outside a fertile imagination.

 

[AV1611VET]

But neither "God" nor gods have shown they exist outside a fertile imagination.

Tell that to people like Yasser Arafat, who, I'm sure, thought the same thing.

 

[AV1611VET]

sorry, but magic is a perfect term for the ad hoc rationalizing creationists do.

Not perfect, since I find "bovine excrement" to be a better term.

You guys must do a lot of magic shows together then?

 

[Naraoia]

I guess that depends on your definition of "nothing". Feel free to produce a rigorous definition of that.

Indeed

 

[Vene]

I hand you 2 apples. I say one was created ex nihilo and the other was grown from a tree. I hand you a note saying which is which. Do you believe the note? Why?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Tell that to people like Yasser Arafat, who, I'm sure, thought the same thing.

Yasser Arafat is dead, AV -- do you talk to the dead?

 

[milkyway]

Tell that to people like Yasser Arafat, who, I'm sure, thought the same thing.

Not sure why you give special credence to Yasser Arafat's religious leanings, but I'm sure his deity was as real as any other.

 

[Naraoia]

Tell that to people like Yasser Arafat, who, I'm sure, thought the same thing.

Was Yasser Arafat an atheist? Or what "same thing" are you referring to?

 

[AV1611VET]

Tell that to people like Yasser Arafat, who, I'm sure, thought the same thing.

Yasser Arafat is dead, AV -- do you talk to the dead?

Tell that to people like Yasser Arafat, who, I'm sure, thought the same thing.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Tell that to people like Yasser Arafat, who, I'm sure, thought the same thing.

Other dead people?

AV, you're posting gibberish on the hope it'll be mistaken for something cryptic and profound -- as even you can plainly see, it's not working.

So, assuming you have a point, what is it?

 

[AV1611VET]

Not sure why you give special credence to Yasser Arafat's religious leanings, but I'm sure his deity was as real as any other.

Do you remember making this statement:

But neither "God" nor gods have shown they exist outside a fertile imagination.

If you think JEHOVAH doesn't exist, then see if you can move Israel back to where they "belong" without meeting Him.

Get the picture now?

 

[LeSabot]

Oopsie!

No fair using available energy, numbers, or mathematics.

God has demonstrated superiority and transcendence over all three of those.

The answer initially provided of "a net increase in energy" could still be wrong, since we don't know that the sum amount of energy in the universe is constant. M-Theory proposes mechanisms that could cause a constant flux in the total amount of system energy. Working within that framework, even if we had an accurate and precise evaluation of the total energy in the universe, we could still not determine the prior existence or non-existence of this apple.

But, again, it comes down to the ability for these theories to be tested, so as soon as we have apples manifesting themselves in closed boxes we can investigate further what the truth actually is.

 

[AV1611VET]

But, again, it comes down to the ability for these theories to be tested, so as soon as we have apples manifesting themselves in closed boxes we can investigate further what the truth actually is.

Please read my OP carefully ---

Question: Assuming this was an actual act of ex nihilo creation...

--- no investigation necessary --- I've removed all the hard stuff for you.

If you don't have an answer, it's no big deal. It's already been answered.

 

[LeSabot]

If you don't have an answer, it's no big deal. It's already been answered.

And I contend that the answer that you were apparently looking for is not wholly substantive. With the current understanding of physics there is no way of ruling out prestidigitation as a cause. There could potentially be no testable difference to determine if the apple was poofed into existence or simply manipulated by slight of hand.

I totally fail to see the point in this thread, but I would hate for you to receive undeserved jollies because of some incorrect conclusion or linguistic chicanery.

 

[AV1611VET]

And I contend that the answer that you were apparently looking for is not wholly substantive. With the current understanding of physics there is no way of ruling out prestidigitation as a cause.

I'll tell you what --- just for you --- I'll make this simpler --- (even though I warned you not to try and make this too hard):

• I place two apples in front of you. The green apple was created ex nihilo, and the red apple was picked from a tree.
• In terms of the Conservation of Mass/Energy principle, explain the difference between the two apples.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

You walk into a room with a table and a box sitting on top of the table. The box is 1 cubic foot in size and shape, and has no bottom.

I lift the box straight up to show you there is nothing on the table, then I put the box back down.

When I lift the box up a second time, there sits an apple on the table.

Question: Assuming this was an actual act of ex nihilo creation, what would be different than if I would have used sleight-of-hand to produce the apple?

I'm looking for a specific scientific answer.

Note: This answer is extremely easy; don't try to make it harder than it actually is.

The reason for this challenge, is that I'm tired of people saying God used "magic" to create this world. I want to show a clear-cut, easy, scientific difference between creatio ex magic and creatio ex nihilo.

Does the apple appear instantaneously? In other words does any time elapse while it is being created ex nihilo? If time does elapse how much?