Words that Calvinists IGNORE

[chestertonrules]

• 1) ALL PEOPLE

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  John 12:31-32

• 2) ALL DIE, ALL MADE ALIVE

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• 3) LIFE FOR ALL

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• 5) IMPRISONED ALL, MERICIFUL TO ALL

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

• 6) THE WHOLE WORLD

• My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  1 John 2:1-2

• 7) SIN OF THE WORLD

• The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
  John 1:29

 

[nill]

Word that chestertonrules IGNORES:

Context.

Apparently, you charge Calvinists with being lazy, that they simply ignore Scripture rather than study it intently. That's rather ignorant of you.

But you wrote this because you like to feel good about yourself after maliciously ranting about something. There is nothing good you want to come from this. Just you and your words.

 

[chestertonrules]

Word that chestertonrules IGNORES:

Context.

Apparently, you charge Calvinists with being lazy, that they simply ignore Scripture rather than study it intently. That's rather ignorant of you.

But you wrote this because you like to feel good about yourself after maliciously ranting about something. There is nothing good you want to come from this. Just you and your words.

Feel free to set me straight. Perhaps you'll conclude that Calvinism is false.

That would be something good coming from this! It happens all the time.

 

[nill]

Feel free to set me straight. Perhaps you'll conclude that Calvinism is false.

You want to argue--that's it. And not only that, you want to argue stupidly, spouting off what Calvinists do and do not believe, all the while defending your claims with infantile arguments that are based on really, really bad reasoning, emotional appeal, and a serious lack of honest and actual study (this thread that was only created less than hours ago is idiotic in pretending that the content it presents hasn't already been addressed centuries ago and continuously ever since then to the present day--mainly due to people like you). What's your purpose? Not to discuss, that's for sure. I might talk with you when you're ready to grow up and stop acting like a toddler.

 

[chestertonrules]

You want to argue--that's it. And not only that, you want to argue stupidly, spouting off what Calvinists do and do not believe, all the while defending your claims with infantile arguments that are based on really, really bad reasoning, emotional appeal, and a serious lack of honest and actual study (this thread that was only created less than hours ago is idiotic in pretending that the content it presents hasn't already been addressed centuries ago and continuously ever since then to the present day--mainly due to people like you). What's your purpose? Not to discuss, that's for sure. I might talk with you when you're ready to grow up and stop acting like a toddler.

I want you to tell me why the verses I posted don't destroy the doctrine of limited atonement specifically and Calvinism generally.

If they do, then you should accept the truth. If they don't, please explain why they don't.

Obviously, you can't do it, or you would have by now.

 

[nill]

I want you to tell me why the verses I posted don't destroy the doctrine of limited atonement specifically and Calvinism generally.

Hahahahaha!!!

If they do, then you should accept the truth. If they don't, please explain why they don't.

No.

Obviously, you can't do it, or you would have by now.

Obviously.

 

[nill]

I have defeated the anti-Calvinists! No one can defeat me! I have toppled and absolutely destroyed all arguments against Calvinism! I believe the BIBLE alone!

Here is my proof!

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. (Romans 5:18)

Are all people everywhere who have ever lived or ever will live justified??!!

Folks, I believe the Bible! Trust me, folks, I have destroyed anti-Calvinist arguments! I am the way and the truth, folks! Folks, I folks and folks folksy folksing! Folk the folk folks--

Oh sorry. Thought you were Van for a second. I get you confused sometimes.

 

[chestertonrules]

I have defeated the anti-Calvinists! No one can defeat me! I have toppled and absolutely destroyed all arguments against Calvinism! I believe the BIBLE alone!

Here is my proof!

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. (Romans 5:18)

Are all people everywhere who have ever lived or ever will live justified??!!

Folks, I believe the Bible! Trust me, folks, I have destroyed anti-Calvinist arguments! I am the way and the truth, folks! Folks, I folks and folks folksy folksing! Folk the folk folks--

Oh sorry. Thought you were Van for a second. I get you confused sometimes.

Unlike you, I will be glad to explain my understanding of the verse you provided.

The sacrifice of Christ LEADS TO(not guarantees) justification for ALL men. ALL MEN then have a choice to make. Accept or reject the grace offered.

The scripture is clear, as are the others I've posted.


Why can't you explain why the verses I posted don't defeat the doctrine of limited atonement?

Perhaps your mind has been clouded by man made dogma.

 

[Van]

Chestertonrules, let me quibble with your version of Romans 5:18. "So then through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." NASB So the idea seems to be that because of Adam's transgression, the result God causes was condemnation to all men. But because of Christ's one act of righteousness, God accepted His sacrifice as justification for all mankind. So in a general sense, all men have been justified, but in a specific sense, no one receives the justification until they are spiritually placed in Christ.

What Calvinists must avoid, is the idea that mankind can be justified, yet no individual within mankind receives the benefits of that justification until they are spiritually placed in Christ.

Christ provides the means of salvation for the whole world, He is the propitiation for the whole world, but only those who are spiritually placed in Christ receive the benefits of that propitiation. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, and so in that sense, all mankind has been bought, but only when God places us spiritually in Christ do we receive the benefits of that purchase, that ransom, that justification, that redemption.

 

[nill]

Unlike you, I will be glad to explain my understanding of the verse you provided.

The sacrifice of Christ LEADS TO(not guarantees) justification for ALL men. ALL MEN then have a choice to make. Accept or reject the grace offered.

The scripture is clear, as are the others I've posted.


Why can't you explain why the verses I posted don't defeat the doctrine of limited atonement?

Perhaps your mind has been clouded by man made dogma.

Sorry, but even a five-year-old could understand this. If you read Paul that way, you'd have to say,

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. (Romans 5:18)

The trespass only LED TO (not guaranteed) condemnation for ALL MEN (which would concludes that some men could have escaped condemnation, and did in fact avoid it altogether), and so (Greek, "IN THIS MANNER") the act of righteousness only LEADS TO justification (not guarantees) and life for all men (which would conclude that some men could have not received justification, and did in fact miss it altogether).

Here's the problem, of course: the whole nonsense of CONTEXT. Because in Romans 5:19--the very next verse--it only says "MANY" will be made righteous, not ALL, and only "MANY" made sinners, not ALL. So in true chestertonrules fashion, I disregard verse 18 and instead spam the forum with just verse 19, declaring that I've destroyed all anti-Calvinist arguments by virtue of just posting one verse of Scripture out of context from the rest of the Bible.

What you miss is what it means to have Christ as an intercessor, our representative before the Father. You are absolutely missing the interplay. They're called the first and second Adam for a reason. Romans 5 is hitting this home over and over again. Why would Paul talk about condemnation and justification in one verse using "all" and in the very next sentence say "many"? Because the point is not in the words "all" and "many" by themselves, which--guess what--you're trying to argue here (and failing quite miserably, I might add)!

 

[chestertonrules]

Chestertonrules, let me quibble with your version of Romans 5:18. "So then through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." NASB So the idea seems to be that because of Adam's transgression, the result God causes was condemnation to all men. But because of Christ's one act of righteousness, God accepted His sacrifice as justification for all mankind. So in a general sense, all men have been justified, but in a specific sense, no one receives the justification until they are spiritually placed in Christ.

What Calvinists must avoid, is the idea that mankind can be justified, yet no individual within mankind receives the benefits of that justification until they are spiritually placed in Christ.

Christ provides the means of salvation for the whole world, He is the propitiation for the whole world, but only those who are spiritually placed in Christ receive the benefits of that propitiation. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, and so in that sense, all mankind has been bought, but only when God places us spiritually in Christ do we receive the benefits of that purchase, that ransom, that justification, that redemption.

First of all, Jesus is God, but more to the point, your description doesn't square with this:

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32


I was attempting to expose limited atonement as unbiblical, and I think I did.

Jesus died for all men, the world, all people, etc.

He calls to all, but some refuse his call. God's grace is required for salvation, but he does not withhold it from certain men and grant it to others. Those who are saved are those who choose to follow.

 

[nobdysfool]

Isn't it funny how the anti-Calvinists can pontificate with absolute certainty what Calvinism teaches, and what Calvinists say, but they have yet to properly state even one doctrine of Calvinism correctly?

They must be mind-readers! They must be able to read the thoughts and intents of the hearts of Calvinists with pinpoint accuracy, for them to be telling Calvinists what they believe, and how lost they are.

Feeding the wild beasts just makes them bolder. Sometimes the best thing to do is just let them wear themselves out. They'll lose interest when they aren't getting a rise out of Calvinists. That's their whole intent here, is to start fights, and bait Calvinists, and ultimately get them banned.

I'm going to go pop some popcorn. This looks to be an entertaining food fight.

 

[chestertonrules]

Isn't it funny how the anti-Calvinists can pontificate with absolute certainty what Calvinism teaches, and what Calvinists say, but they have yet to properly state even one doctrine of Calvinism correctly?

They must be mind-readers! They must be able to read the thoughts and intents of the hearts of Calvinists with pinpoint accuracy, for them to be telling Calvinists what they believe, and how lost they are.

Feeding the wild beasts just makes them bolder. Sometimes the best thing to do is just let them wear themselves out. They'll lose interest when they aren't getting a rise out of Calvinists. That's their whole intent here, is to start fights, and bait Calvinists, and ultimately get them banned.

I'm going to go pop some popcorn. This looks to be an entertaining food fight.

My intent is to make you think. So far, I have failed.

Please explain why the verses I posted don't explicitly negate limited atonement.

Good luck!

 

[justsurfing]

You're only contesting one point of Calvinism: Limited Atonement. God is 100% Sovereign. Salvation is 100% Grace. Only the elect receive salvation in this lifetime. Total inability is sound.

Calvinists believe the Atonement is Limited because they know the Atonement is Efficacious. Therefore, everyone atoned for IS saved in the final end result. As John Murray has stated in "The Atonement" - the only scriptural way The Atonement can be Unlimited... is if it results in the final restoration of all mankind.
The Atonement is efficacious. Period. Either the atonement is limited... or no one spends eternity in hell. Period. He's got an inescapable scriptural conclusion, imo. So, either:

1. The Atonement is Limited and hell is eternal for those on the left on Judgment Day, or
2. The Atonement is Unlimited and the Lake of Fire is not eternal punishment.

Please read John Murray's paper on The Atonement.

http://graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=13|46|270

To try to argue that God in His Sovereignty limited His Sovereignty so that man could have free will... is like saying God limited His Omniscience so man could have free thinking. There's no sound logic to these rationales. If Calvinism's point of Limited Atonement is false - the God in His Sovereignty has made Jesus Christ the Savior of all men efficaciously. It's spiritually impossible for there to be any other conclusion to Unlimited Atonement. God is Sovereign and can save all He wills to save.

Grace and peace

Feel free to set me straight. Perhaps you'll conclude that Calvinism is false.

That would be something good coming from this! It happens all the time.

 

[justsurfing]

It doesn't matter that the Bible teaches that The Atonement is unlimited in who was atoned for. You're also stating that The Atonement is limited in extent and not everyone is saved. You've created an oxymoron. Fatal flaw.

Calvinists believe the atonement is limited not on the basis of scripture stating that the atonement is limited - but on the basis you've limited the extent of the efficacy of the atonement by stating that people are eternally punished. Please read The Atonement by John Murray - a reformed theologian. He proves the Atonement is 100% efficacious. Therefore, the extent of the reach of the Atonement in salvation exactly matches who was atoned for in the Atonement.

Limited result? Limited Atonement. That's the logic. This point cannot be successfully challenged or refuted if punishment is eternal.

Everyone Jesus died for is going to be saved. Period. Efficacious Atonement. The only explanation of an Unlimited Atonement is all mankind really being made alive in Christ... in salvation. Efficacy. If the scripture truly proves the Atonement is unlimited... all mankind really is restored (as John Murray - reformed theologian - stated would be the only outcome of such a belief for very sound scriptural reason. His paper is excellent.)

Grace and peace.

First of all, Jesus is God, but more to the point, your description doesn't square with this:

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32


I was attempting to expose limited atonement as unbiblical, and I think I did.

Jesus died for all men, the world, all people, etc.

He calls to all, but some refuse his call. God's grace is required for salvation, but he does not withhold it from certain men and grant it to others. Those who are saved are those who choose to follow.

 

[justsurfing]

I'm going to state this clearly. Please bring your proof that hell is not eternal and that everyone is saved and Jesus really is the Savior of all men.
You must refute hell being eternal to refute the position of Limited Atonement. You must prove that the reprobate go through the lake of fire, all evil is destroyed, and then the reprobate are recreated by God. Otherwise, the atonement is limited. Period. Even though the scripture says the atonement is unlimited.

You've detected an error. The Calvinist system states limited atonement while the many scriptures you've stated clearly state unlimited atonement. But what's the error?? Translation error in stating unlimited atonement... or translation error in stating an eternal punishment??

You've stumbled upon an error in systematic theology that cannot be solved with a KJV translation. Did it occur to anyone there may be a translation error that breaks the impasse??

Or are we trying to make our doctrine 'fit' and not using original language sola scripture?? Is God so inconsistent as to state an unlimited atonement in scripture describing what Jesus did on the cross - and then state that not everyone who was atoned for will be saved? When the atonement is efficacious for all who are atoned for?? Or is it because there is a translation error and we're not using an original language literal translation - or we wouldn't have this apparent conflict??

Grace and peace.

 

[nobdysfool]

My intent is to make you think. So far, I have failed.

Please explain why the verses I posted don't explicitly negate limited atonement.

Good luck!

LOL! The joke is on you, dude. I did the thinking a long time ago, and with every passing day, as I study God's Word, I see more clearly, and it ain't the stuff you're pushing.

As for wasting my time with you, I'll pass. You wouldn't accept what I have to say, anyway. If you're honest, you'll admit that's true.

 

[nobdysfool]

I'm going to state this clearly. Please bring your proof that hell is not eternal and that everyone is saved and Jesus really is the Savior of all men.
You must refute hell being eternal to refute the position of Limited Atonement. You must prove that the reprobate go through the lake of fire, all evil is destroyed, and then the reprobate are recreated by God. Otherwise, the atonement is limited. Period. Even though the scripture says the atonement is unlimited.

You've detected an error. The Calvinist system states limited atonement while the many scriptures you've stated clearly state unlimited atonement. But what's the error?? Translation error in stating unlimited atonement... or translation error in stating an eternal punishment??

You've stumbled upon an error in systematic theology that cannot be solved with a KJV translation. Did it occur to anyone there may be a translation error that breaks the impasse??

Or are we trying to make our doctrine 'fit' and not using original language sola scripture?? Is God so inconsistent as to state an unlimited atonement in scripture describing what Jesus did on the cross - and then state that not everyone who was atoned for will be saved? When the atonement is efficacious for all who are atoned for?? Or is it because there is a translation error and we're not using an original language literal translation - or we wouldn't have this apparent conflict??

Grace and peace.

Great points! Your posts are a breath of fresh air!

 

[beloved57]

• 1) ALL PEOPLE

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  John 12:31-32

• 2) ALL DIE, ALL MADE ALIVE

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• 3) LIFE FOR ALL

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• 5) IMPRISONED ALL, MERICIFUL TO ALL

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

• 6) THE WHOLE WORLD

• My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  1 John 2:1-2

• 7) SIN OF THE WORLD

• The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
  John 1:29

all those words apply to the elect..

 

[justsurfing]

Hi nobdysfool,

Awwww... thank you. Did you read that article by John Murray on The Atonement?? It was so great, I would have given him a standing ovation live and in person. It was excellent. One of the best works I've ever read on The Atonement.

I try to be patient... with this whole view that God is not Sovereign.

It's just a good thing He is!!

Grace and peace.

Great points! Your posts are a breath of fresh air!