• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Evidence against abiogenesis/evolution

Wiccan_Child

Contributor
Mar 21, 2005
19,419
673
Bristol, UK
✟46,731.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Because otherwise the organism would be inhibited (poisoned) by the excrement.
Why? And even if it was, what's to stop brownian motion moving the organisms away from the excerment? Indeed, what makes you think it would have excrement at all? We are not talking about a bacterium here, remember.

If you assume that some current carries off the excrement, then there is no selective pressure to impel the organism to evolve (assuming you accept other evolutionist arguments regarding mutation, etc).
Of course there is: there would be a selection pressure favouring those offspring who were more energy efficient, faster at reproducing, had etc. Why would selection pressures 'turn off' if there was no poisonous excrement in the local environment?

If you say that organisms evolve without selective pressure, then you're resorting to random chance and open the door to the full power of Creationist probability & statistics. For example, one chance in 10^4,478,296.
Yes, I've seen some of these Creationists statistics. The derivations are less than convincing.
 
Upvote 0

FishFace

Senior Veteran
Jan 12, 2007
4,535
169
37
✟28,130.00
Faith
Atheist
Here is an important quote in the article you cited: "However, if any of the organisms' existing enzymes have the slightest ability to enhance reactions with the new resource, selection will strongly favor the duplication of the gene that produces that enzyme, and future mutations will improve the ability of the newly duplicated enzyme to process the new chemical resource." This sort of evolution is unquestionably present, and is a key part of microbial survival. I've built this adaptive ability into my business model. It's important to recognize that the organism has to have the a priori capability of metabolizing the compound--over time, it gets better at the process and its growth accelerates. This is a very good point you made, however.

Nylon bug couldn't digest nylon at all until the frameshift mutation happened, that scientists have now isolated.
Nylon didn't exist at all before the 20th century so even if this feature had arisen before, mutations would knock it out of action relatively quickly.
Nylonase was just a very lucky accident - a single mutation occurred which happened to produce a useful enzyme. Billions of other mutations happen in flavobacterium happen probably every day, and do absolutely nothing.
 
Upvote 0

FishFace

Senior Veteran
Jan 12, 2007
4,535
169
37
✟28,130.00
Faith
Atheist
See if in your lifetime any of the organisms mutates to eat the SO4 2- through sulfate reduction chemosynthesis to turn the SO4 2- into H2S.

Billions of years > Human lifetime.

Besides, in this imaginary scenario, the sulphuric acid would be diluted into nothingness by seawater, and the hydrogen sulphide would be continuously replaced by volcanic activity, such as black smokers.
 
Upvote 0

FishFace

Senior Veteran
Jan 12, 2007
4,535
169
37
✟28,130.00
Faith
Atheist
Ok if we're talking about rabbits, imagine that the very first organism is a rabbit, not a microbe, and the world is full of rabbit food, like carrots. Further imagine that carrots spontaneously appear out of a cave (or volcanic vent, if you prefer) at a rate of 10 carrots per day. After 50 years or so, rabbit population increases to trillions, eating all the carrots. Population of rabbits crashes in the span of two weeks to 50 or so rabbits clustered round the hole, eating the carrots as soon as they appear. Dead rabbits and excrement pile up around the hole. After a few months, the rabbits drown in their own filth because there are no organisms convert the filth into carrots. Rabbits go extinct. There is no time for the rabbits to evolve into tigers to eat each other. As long as even one carrot appeared, it would have no incentive to eat a dead rabbit, so the 50 rabbits outside the hole don't evolve. Two weeks is insufficient time for any of the other trillion rabbits to adopt to eating each other. The end. No rabbits. And definitely no tigers.

Analogy fails. Seawater dilutes excrement from a vastly smaller population than that of rabbits, and volcanic vents provide a superfluity of resources. There are billions of years, not a few decades, for other organisms which digest H2S metabolism products to evolve.

Your response also shows utter ignorance of the point. It doesn't matter how efficient a bacterium is if it's likely to be engulfed by a bacterial colony sitting next to it which evolved multicellularity.
 
Upvote 0

Naraoia

Apprentice Biologist
Sep 30, 2007
6,682
313
On edge
Visit site
✟30,998.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Naraoia,

1. No organism could even exist to eat another organism if there is no time for the first predatory organism to evolve.
You haven't convinced anyone here that there wasn't.
2. Immune systems are ultimately no panacea for multicellular organisms. Anyone suffering from AIDS can attest to this. Given enough time, the microbes will kill us all.
No, perhaps given enough time, either we develop HIV resistance (some of us already have it!) or HIV itself will become less damaging to the host (though, seeing as HIV acts over a very long time frame and spreads quite well, I'm not sure how much pressure there is for it to grow "milder"). Parasite-host coevolution is a beautiful arms race.
3. The point is that sunlight as a renewable source of energy directly utilizable by microbes is not available for non-photosynthetic organisms. The first organism would need to derive its food from a point source of emissions, such as a volcano.
Yes, so what?
4. The longest volcanic eruption we know of was 50 years. http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/2000/00_02_03.html. My reasonable hunch is that no eruption would reasonably last for 500k years or more. I’m sorry, those of you who argue otherwise, but completely reversing a metabolic process could not be done with evolution, and even if it could, not as soon as 500k years.
Eh, we're not talking volcanic eruptions. Magma and hot ash and stuff like that is rather too hot even for hyperthermophiles. Things like the Yellowstone hot springs and the Solfatara, more like the enviromnents these things like to live in, have certainly been around for more than 50 years. Anyway, even 50 years is a heck of a lot of time for a fast-reproducing organism like a bacterium. Let's be generous and assume one generation per day for our hypothetical protobacteria - that's 50 × 365 = 18250 generations in fifty years (not counting leap years :p). If we assume a generation time of an hour - and why not, modern bacteria can do even better than that -, the numbers go up to more than 400 000 generations. Stick, how many, four zeros at the end to get the numbers for 500k years. I don't think you really thought about their implications.

It doesn't even take 50 years to adapt to a totally new food source - nylonases evolved in less time than that, and nylon isn't really similar to anything you can eat in nature. Reversing a metabolic pathway would probably be much simpler. Methanogens and anaerobic methanotrophs are something I've found out about just recently. I gather the most accepted view is that they use the same enzymatic apparatus in reversed directions, although the details of anaerobic methane oxidation do seem to be somewhat mysterious.

Also, why can't two opposing metabolic pathways develop simultaneously? The earth spews out all sorts of stuff, not just one step in each nutrient cycle, doesn't it?

5. We already live in a balanced aquarium, which allows the ecosystem to sustain itself. The first cell would not exist in a balanced aquarium.
And it need not. Balance would come about when later cells started to work on what was left by cell 1. And don't say there wasn't enough time. There most likely was.
6. High levels of volcanism don’t help evolution—they hurt evolution through incineration.
Except not all volcanism involves spectacular bursts of lava. And we know hot acid is the ideal place to live for a number of organisms.
7. One volcano popping up elsewhere doesn’t help either. The microbe could not travel from one point source of food to another fast enough. In between would be a vast “desert”
Dormancy?
8. I can’t access Borass’s paper, so I can’t evaluate it (not willing to pay $32). I don’t regard TalkOrigins as credible, if your information cam from there.
Any reason for your feelings against TO apart from not agreeing with its conclusions? Anyway, TomK was kind enough to send me a nice little pdf so I can email the stuff if you really want it.
9. If you don’t regard humans as a “single anything,” would you care to identify a person who is only half-human, or less than 100% human? Charles Darwin and his contemporaries could. I absolutely do not think you’re a racist, by the way.
As for humanity being a single entity, yes it is, in the sense that it doesn't interbreed with anything else (that I know of :p). However, in terms of genetics and disease resistance it's anything but (sickle-cell trait has been done to death but that's definitely not the only example). Polymorphism of all kinds is abundant in humans, and that makes it harder for any single parasite to adapt to all of us. And makes it very hard for me to swallow the idea that parasites would ever totally wipe us out.
10. If you want me to take the time to read Borass’s paper, then you should read my link as well.
I don't want you to do anything. In any case I think the gist of the Chlorella vs Ochromonas case was summarised pretty well. A predator was let loose among unicellular algae, who within a few dozen generations became stably multicellular (colonial). That's the example in a nutshell. References are (1) just in case you don't believe the one who summarises them, (2) you are so interested you want to read more.

Based on your summary, I find it hard to imagine that your link can bring up any good arguments in favour of the humans-are-doomed idea, but if you really want me to read and analyse it I'll be a good little scientist and do it.
 
Upvote 0

Naraoia

Apprentice Biologist
Sep 30, 2007
6,682
313
On edge
Visit site
✟30,998.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I laughed a lot at David Hasselhoff but the other two meet my standards of animal beauty :D

But then I'm a crazy biology student who spends two hours freezing her extremities off and crawling over slippery seaweedy rocks just to admire a few worms, snails and anemones :D
 
Upvote 0

True_Blue

Non-denominational, literalist YEC Christian
Mar 4, 2004
1,948
54
46
California
✟2,444.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Why? And even if it was, what's to stop brownian motion moving the organisms away from the excerment? Indeed, what makes you think it would have excrement at all? We are not talking about a bacterium here, remember.

Of course there is: there would be a selection pressure favouring those offspring who were more energy efficient, faster at reproducing, had etc. Why would selection pressures 'turn off' if there was no poisonous excrement in the local environment?

To best of my knowledge, all life forms have excrement (except perhaps viruses), and to the best of my knowledge, growth of all life forms is inhibited if the concentration of excrement reaches a certain threshold. CO2 is toxic to humans. O2 is toxic to organisms that excrete it.

Necessity is the mother of invention. In a steady state environment where an organism thrives, it won't change.
 
Upvote 0

Chalnoth

Senior Contributor
Aug 14, 2006
11,361
384
Italy
✟43,653.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
To best of my knowledge, all life forms have excrement (except perhaps viruses), and to the best of my knowledge, growth of all life forms is inhibited if the concentration of excrement reaches a certain threshold. CO2 is toxic to humans. O2 is toxic to organisms that excrete it.
This is true. All organisms have waste products. But this doesn't help your case: early on, before life really got its start, it would have been confined to nutrient-rich areas, such as volcanic vents. Thus the waste products would have been diluted to almost nothing.

Necessity is the mother of invention. In a steady state environment where an organism thrives, it won't change.
You're assuming here that the organism is already perfectly fit to its environment. Why?
 
Upvote 0

True_Blue

Non-denominational, literalist YEC Christian
Mar 4, 2004
1,948
54
46
California
✟2,444.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
You haven't convinced anyone here that there wasn't.
No, perhaps given enough time, either we develop HIV resistance (some of us already have it!) or HIV itself will become less damaging to the host (though, seeing as HIV acts over a very long time frame and spreads quite well, I'm not sure how much pressure there is for it to grow "milder"). Parasite-host coevolution is a beautiful arms race.
Yes, so what?
Eh, we're not talking volcanic eruptions. Magma and hot ash and stuff like that is rather too hot even for hyperthermophiles. Things like the Yellowstone hot springs and the Solfatara, more like the enviromnents these things like to live in, have certainly been around for more than 50 years. Anyway, even 50 years is a heck of a lot of time for a fast-reproducing organism like a bacterium. Let's be generous and assume one generation per day for our hypothetical protobacteria - that's 50 × 365 = 18250 generations in fifty years (not counting leap years :p). If we assume a generation time of an hour - and why not, modern bacteria can do even better than that -, the numbers go up to more than 400 000 generations. Stick, how many, four zeros at the end to get the numbers for 500k years. I don't think you really thought about their implications.

It doesn't even take 50 years to adapt to a totally new food source - nylonases evolved in less time than that, and nylon isn't really similar to anything you can eat in nature. Reversing a metabolic pathway would probably be much simpler. Methanogens and anaerobic methanotrophs are something I've found out about just recently. I gather the most accepted view is that they use the same enzymatic apparatus in reversed directions, although the details of anaerobic methane oxidation do seem to be somewhat mysterious.

Also, why can't two opposing metabolic pathways develop simultaneously? The earth spews out all sorts of stuff, not just one step in each nutrient cycle, doesn't it?

And it need not. Balance would come about when later cells started to work on what was left by cell 1. And don't say there wasn't enough time. There most likely was.
Except not all volcanism involves spectacular bursts of lava. And we know hot acid is the ideal place to live for a number of organisms.
Dormancy?
Any reason for your feelings against TO apart from not agreeing with its conclusions? Anyway, TomK was kind enough to send me a nice little pdf so I can email the stuff if you really want it.
As for humanity being a single entity, yes it is, in the sense that it doesn't interbreed with anything else (that I know of :p). However, in terms of genetics and disease resistance it's anything but (sickle-cell trait has been done to death but that's definitely not the only example). Polymorphism of all kinds is abundant in humans, and that makes it harder for any single parasite to adapt to all of us. And makes it very hard for me to swallow the idea that parasites would ever totally wipe us out.
I don't want you to do anything. In any case I think the gist of the Chlorella vs Ochromonas case was summarised pretty well. A predator was let loose among unicellular algae, who within a few dozen generations became stably multicellular (colonial). That's the example in a nutshell. References are (1) just in case you don't believe the one who summarises them, (2) you are so interested you want to read more.

Based on your summary, I find it hard to imagine that your link can bring up any good arguments in favour of the humans-are-doomed idea, but if you really want me to read and analyse it I'll be a good little scientist and do it.

Nylon isn’t an entirely new substance—it’s made out of coal. Almost all manufactured goods are hydrocarbons. The very complexity of a molecule is an energy source. I imagine that pretty much any complex substance a human might make can be degraded by microbes already in existence. This is one reason why I am not worried that man-made pollution can irreparably harm the environment.

My little business has been studying methanogens in detail, among other microbes, to devise exotic ways to make money from them. There is compelling experimental evidence showing that it’s impractical to expect microbes to evolve to reverse their metabolic pathway such that they are no longer inhibited by excretion of a particular substance. We’ve structured our business model accordingly. If you were right, Drs. Deng and Coleman, who created ethanol-excreting cyanobacteria, would be richer than Bill Gates right now: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=91056. Their idea went nowhere because the bacteria were destroyed when concentrations of ethanol reached a certain level. If you can spend a few years coaxing cyanos to develop high ethanol tolerance through natural selection, up to 50 g/L (let alone eating the ethanol itself), you’ll be the richest human being ever. You’ll also go a long way toward showing evolution is practical.

I’m going to stick to my assertion that clumping of unicellular organisms does not a multicellular organism make.

Right now I’m suffering from a rather nasty cold, so my mood is rather in favor of microbes at the moment.
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Nylon isn’t an entirely new substance—it’s made out of coal. Almost all manufactured goods are hydrocarbons. The very complexity of a molecule is an energy source. I imagine that pretty much any complex substance a human might make can be degraded by microbes already in existence. This is one reason why I am not worried that man-made pollution can irreparably harm the environment.
You should be worried, because plastics cannot normally be broken down by microbes. That is why they last a very long time and why recycling them is so important. Your confidence in man-made pollution not harming our environment is sorely misplaced. There are companies now trying to engineer microbes that can economically degrade plastics, as well as oil and other substances that are not normally degradable.
 
Upvote 0

Chalnoth

Senior Contributor
Aug 14, 2006
11,361
384
Italy
✟43,653.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Nylon isn’t an entirely new substance—it’s made out of coal. Almost all manufactured goods are hydrocarbons. The very complexity of a molecule is an energy source. I imagine that pretty much any complex substance a human might make can be degraded by microbes already in existence. This is one reason why I am not worried that man-made pollution can irreparably harm the environment.
But until nylonase evolved, no organism had an enzyme that could digest nylon. That's the point. All that you've argued here is that it is possible, in principle, to digest nylon. So what? We already knew that.

My little business has been studying methanogens in detail, among other microbes, to devise exotic ways to make money from them. There is compelling experimental evidence showing that it’s impractical to expect microbes to evolve to reverse their metabolic pathway such that they are no longer inhibited by excretion of a particular substance.
Oh, really? Okay, then, guess it can't happen. Oh, wait:
In normal anaerobic E. coli metabolism L-fucose is transported into the cell and converted into dihydroxyacetone phosphate (which is used for further metabolism) and lactaldehyde (which is a waste product). The lactaldehyde is then converted to propanediol which is actively excreted from the cell by a "facilitator" - a chemical that eases movement of another chemical through the cell membrane in either direction. When E. coli lines are exposed to an aerobic environment rich in propanediol, some individuals are able to utilize this former waste as a food source. This is made possible by a change to the enzyme that formerly converted the lactaldehyde to propanediol to reverse its action and convert the propanediol to lactaldehyde. The lactaldehyde can then be processed by the previously existing aerobic pathways that use lactaldehyde as a carbon and energy source.
From the same source we've already linked to you:
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html
 
Upvote 0

Wiccan_Child

Contributor
Mar 21, 2005
19,419
673
Bristol, UK
✟46,731.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
To best of my knowledge, all life forms have excrement (except perhaps viruses), and to the best of my knowledge, growth of all life forms is inhibited if the concentration of excrement reaches a certain threshold. CO2 is toxic to humans. O2 is toxic to organisms that excrete it.
Nope: plants 'breathe' O[sub]2[/sub] at night.

And in any case, we are talking about the first organism, not humans. A simple self-replicating molecule incased in a simple phospholipid double-membrane might not make any excrement, let alone excrement that is toxic.

Please, show that the first organism must:
a) excrete toxic chemicals
b) be unable to move away from said excrement

Because, even if you're right about the excrement, simple thermal motion would cause the toxins to spread uniformly throughout the 'ocean' of chemicals.

Necessity is the mother of invention. In a steady state environment where an organism thrives, it won't change.
Not at all: the thing would mutate. It's offspring would occasionally have mutations. Some of these would be make them less likely to reproduce, some more likely. The latter, then, would breed faster and better, eventually overtaking it's ancestors strain and becoming the dominant strain. Repeat for a billion years, and you'll have a highly diverse array of organisms.

You assume that, just because something thrives, that there is no room for improvement. Necessity is the mother of all invention, yes, but evolution isn't about invention: it's about trial-and-error over billions of generations.
 
Upvote 0