• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Important Doctrines and Inerrancy: An Axiom

Moriah_Conquering_Wind

Well-Known Member
Mar 6, 2006
23,327
2,234
✟34,174.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Almost everyone knows about the Johannine Comma, and the last part of Mark not appearing in the earliest manuscripts. So what?
Tip of the iceberg ... as any seminarian or even pre-seminarian could tellsy.

What you seem to be doing is making a Chinese Buffet from Scripture, using your subjective standards to ascertain what part of Scripture is trustworthy. Conversely, what is then wrong if another person says "I believe the Scriptures that Stormy rejects are authoritative" if he uses the same Chinese Buffet technique as you?
Do you see my point? I am trying to get you to see the need for objective standards. For example, what would you say about the fact that the references of Jesus and Paul to the OT come from the Septuagint (LXX) a translation of the Hebrew OT into Greek in 270 BC? You have to keep in mind that neither Jesus nor Paul advocate as you do the Chinese Buffet approach to Scripture.
You do err, not knowing the scriptures neither the power of God. ;)
Both JC and Paul RADICALLY reinterpreted scripture in a blatantly divergent manner from the leading "NON buffet" authorities on its wholistic meaning who went before them. In JC's case, enough to arouse sufficient ire from those authorities that they sought to end His LIFE over it. In Paul's case, enough that he became a champion and advocate of the gathering of the Gentiles unto God without the need for them to pass through any stage of Judaism first or simultaneous to receiving Christ as their Saviour, thus arousing the ire of the Jews, even the converted ones, and openly distinguishing himself rebukingly from the very apostles who bes chosen BEFORE himself (including Peter at one point if Moriah recalls correctly).

In fact if one bes to apply the infamous "four tests of a true prophet" which the SDA denomination bandies about so freely these days back in the days of JC from the perspective of the leading "chosen by God" religious authorities of that day, JC Himself would have summarily failed at least three if not all four of those tests. Objectively speaking from a literal view, for example, not everything He predicted came to pass (He did not return before those alive in His day met their deaths), and His new light, far from not contradicting the "old", stood it on its ear and radically reinvented it if not outright surpassing and obsolescing it. He even stated as much openly when He alluded to the impossibility of putting NEW WINE into OLD wineskins because to do so would cause the skins to burst and the value of BOTH to be lost. Those bes the 2 tests Moriah remembers at the moment but there bes the other two as well you can do the math for on your own if you like.

JohnT, you may not admit but it is you who are using the method you accuse Stormy of. You decide what parts of the Scripture you will adhere but have no rationale for doing so.
EVERYONE cherry picks scripture and if you don't believe this, just try asking the average rabid anti-gay crusader sometime whether he eats shellfish or wears clothing made from two different fabrics.

Bottom line: we bes not saved by a book. Scripture may be "profitable" for "instruction" and "correction" but it does NOT save us. Christ Himself alone does that. He even states as much where He gently chides the Jews for searching the scriptures BECAUSE they believe that in them they will find eternal life, when the scriptures testify to Christ, "and yet you will not come to Me, that you might HAVE that life you seek."

Taking scripture as a whole goes way deeper than proof texting. It involves a dynamic relationship with the inspirational Source behind it so that it becomes a personalised conversational experience between the worshipper and God, and gauged and comprehended through the only valid "filter" -- that of the lived-out, manifestedly revealed nature and character of God Himself in and through Christ -- one's comprehension will first be brought into focus by resetting one's primary texts and spiritual axioms, and next be brought into wholeness by conforming every thought and understanding of anything read in scripture to the express image of the divine IN Christ instead of the human proclivity to sneak its taints into things.
 
Upvote 0

StormyOne

Senior Veteran
Aug 21, 2005
5,424
47
65
Alabama
✟5,866.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
thank you Senti and Moriah... your summarizations are on point... John T my brother I would say that given your conservative bent you will probably have a difficult time understanding my comments.... rest assured though I understand where you are coming from quite well, I just don't share your view..... there are things in the bible you don't adhere to, why? The fact that you don't adhere to those things is evidence that you pick what is important to you and ignore other things... no biggie, everyone does it....
 
Upvote 0

JohnT

Regular Member
Oct 27, 2007
823
117
Finger Lakes, NY
✟27,300.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
JohnT, you may not admit but it is you who are using the method you accuse Stormy of. You decide what parts of the Scripture you will adhere but have no rationale for doing so.

How is that so?

All I do is say that what we do have is a faithful record of the original autographa.

In admitting that there are VARIATIONS of certain Scriptures among the manuscripts we do have, that does not mean that there are errors. I have a NT in Greek with a critical apparatus. that tells the reader of all the different variations on a particular verse, and they are dually classified.

One classification shows all the families and particular mss within that family of variants, and the primary classification is the degree of certainty that we have of the present reading in the Greek NT being the best one.

Therefore, I fail to see your point. I base my selection on scholarship, and evidence of ancient manuscripts. I do not see Stormy doing that, and I am not trying to be snobbish when I say that.
 
Upvote 0

StormyOne

Senior Veteran
Aug 21, 2005
5,424
47
65
Alabama
✟5,866.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
no one has the original manuscripts so your belief that we "faithful record of the original autographa" while understandable does not fit with the facts.... It may be an exercise of your faith and to a degree the bible is an article of faith, but I don't share your view that what we have is a faithful record....
 
Upvote 0

StormyOne

Senior Veteran
Aug 21, 2005
5,424
47
65
Alabama
✟5,866.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Therefore, I fail to see your point. I base my selection on scholarship, and evidence of ancient manuscripts. I do not see Stormy doing that, and I am not trying to be snobbish when I say that.

you have admitted that your view is conservative, so it is not surprising that the "scholarship" you use to support your position is also conservative. When I mentioned Kugel you stated that he was consistently "liberal" in his approach, which I am sure you reject...

So here is my observation, you want me to agree with your basic premise that the bible is inerrant, and I don't. You believe that it is inerrant because of the information provided by scholars you agree with and respect. I don't share that belief nor do I think all scholars agree that the manuscripts are without contamination.

While I understand what you are saying, I simply don't agree, and I am okay with our not being on the same page with this issue... are you?
 
Upvote 0

sentipente

Senior Contributor
Jul 17, 2007
11,651
4,492
Silver Sprint, MD
✟54,142.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Politics
US-Others
How is that so?

All I do is say that what we do have is a faithful record of the original autographa.
If the record is faithful and the autographa are inerrant then the record must also be inerrant. But that poses a problem because any blind man can see, from reading what we have, that it is too full of internal contradictions to be inerrant. Unless, of course, that we now are expected to believe that the Source is not really inerrant. In which case it would be folly to claim that the autographa are inerrant. Oh, what a tangled web we weave when . . .
 
Upvote 0

Telaquapacky

Unconquerable Good Will
Sep 5, 2006
457
20
Central California
✟23,170.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
People choose their faith based on emotional needs, not on microscopic Bible study. Once the choice is made, the Bible is seen through a lens that makes it appear that the doctrines of the already-chosen church are at least mostly true, or more true than the other churches.
Dat's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

So everybody treats the Bible like a Chinese buffet. That's why we ought to spend more time prayerfully reading it through and let God talk to us the same way He talked to the writers, instead of cut-and-pasting bits and pieces into a Frankenstein monster.
 
Upvote 0

Telaquapacky

Unconquerable Good Will
Sep 5, 2006
457
20
Central California
✟23,170.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
So everybody treats the Bible like a Chinese buffet.
The beauty of a buffet is that you can have sweet and sour pork and I can have kung pao tofu and we can sit at the same table. But if they're serving family style, it's a problem. The Bible may be like a buffet, but the churches are like family style. You sort of have to like what everyone else likes. I pass three SDA churches on the way to the congregation where I attend. The one in my own town is way too traditional for me, the second one is Spanish-speaking, and the third one consists of half a dozen septegenarians.
 
Upvote 0

StormyOne

Senior Veteran
Aug 21, 2005
5,424
47
65
Alabama
✟5,866.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The beauty of a buffet is that you can have sweet and sour pork and I can have kung pao tofu and we can sit at the same table. But if they're serving family style, it's a problem. The Bible may be like a buffet, but the churches are like family style. You sort of have to like what everyone else likes. I pass three SDA churches on the way to the congregation where I attend. The one in my own town is way too traditional for me, the second one is Spanish-speaking, and the third one consists of half a dozen septegenarians.
I like the analogy of the buffet, and the problem comes in when people who have selected what they want to be on their plate attempt to mandate everyone else have the same thing on their plates... that if people aren't eating what they are eating then they are not "true" buffet diners....
 
Upvote 0

JohnT

Regular Member
Oct 27, 2007
823
117
Finger Lakes, NY
✟27,300.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
you have admitted that your view is conservative, so it is not surprising that the "scholarship" you use to support your position is also conservative. When I mentioned Kugel you stated that he was consistently "liberal" in his approach, which I am sure you reject...

So here is my observation, you want me to agree with your basic premise that the bible is inerrant, and I don't. You believe that it is inerrant because of the information provided by scholars you agree with and respect. I don't share that belief nor do I think all scholars agree that the manuscripts are without contamination.

While I understand what you are saying, I simply don't agree, and I am okay with our not being on the same page with this issue... are you?

You missed what is the most important part: I deal with evidence, others deal with conjecture, like Kugel.

He believes in 2 Isaiah s who wrote the book. Jesus quotes from both parts, and says the3y are authoritative. OTOH Kugel opines and has no firm evidence on which to stand. By definition that is conjecture, not scholarship.

You may label my approach as conservative, which it is, but to use that term to outright dismiss my position is wrong. Doing that denies a whole library of evidence, and therein is the weakness of the position you take.

I'll take facts over feelings any day.
 
Upvote 0

JohnT

Regular Member
Oct 27, 2007
823
117
Finger Lakes, NY
✟27,300.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I have no idea what that last sentence is supposed to mean.
Nor does it mean that from the extant codices and papyrii etc, we are unable to ascertain the original words in the original languages

I was using the categories of the old manuscripts that we have.
A Codex is an entire Bible, of which we have several: Vaticanus, in the Vatican, Sinaticus, in the British Museum, I think, and I believe Alexandrus is in St Petersberg. They are written on vellum, and very durable.

Papyri are the portions of the Bible written on papyrus sheets.

When talking about the inerrancy issue, knowledge of these is important
 
Upvote 0

StormyOne

Senior Veteran
Aug 21, 2005
5,424
47
65
Alabama
✟5,866.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You missed what is the most important part: I deal with evidence, others deal with conjecture, like Kugel.

He believes in 2 Isaiah s who wrote the book. Jesus quotes from both parts, and says the3y are authoritative. OTOH Kugel opines and has no firm evidence on which to stand. By definition that is conjecture, not scholarship.

You may label my approach as conservative, which it is, but to use that term to outright dismiss my position is wrong. Doing that denies a whole library of evidence, and therein is the weakness of the position you take.

I'll take facts over feelings any day.
that is your right, and it works for you.... as I said somewhere else, I don't share your view, and given that Kugel (evidence that he is a bible scholar with degrees and you have yet to establish your bona fides) seems to bring more to the table in terms of what he knows about the bible i.e. biblical languages and such, I would tend to give his comments more weight than I do yours....

As for evidence, depending on who is interpreting it, it can be used for or against....
 
Upvote 0