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Supporting The Troops Is Supporting The War

joebudda

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I was thinking about this thread while I was at school tonight.

Your logic is wrong, Joe. If those who fight in the war are the cause of the war, or the source of the war, and they should simply refuse to fight to end the war...
Correct, if individuals choose not participate in the war there would be no war.
That would mean that no one should ever fight for the rights or freedom of anyone else.
No it wouldn't.
That means that American slavery should have continued until the slaves were able to rise up and earn their own independence.
And what was the main reason for that fight? They were all fighting for their independence, their individual rights that Britain was trying to take from them.

This is why there is a Declaration of Independence.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,

So it was individuals fighting for their own individual rights because some other individuals thought they had some right to control the lives of other individuals.

This is why they were careful to say that it is the right of the individuals to abolish any form of government if it is in contrast of the rights that all individuals have. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
 
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uberd00b

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Interesting point. How can you not support the war while supporting the troops actions (which are...the war).

Maybe support means "be nice to them as they foolishly joined the forces with high ideals and never expected to be abused so badly by their government". That would be supporting naivety though.

I'm not sure why we must support the troops, if they're big enough and stupid enough to join the armed forces surely they can handle the consequences of their decision?
 
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MachZer0

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I am sick of seeing all of these magnetic ribbons on everyone’s car that read “support the troops, not the war”. These people are a bunch of hypocrites. Because supporting the “troops” is supporting the war.

War is fought by individuals willing to fight a war. It is fought by individuals willing to kill others by their own actions. If these “troops” were not “supporting” the war there would be no war. If these individuals really wanted the war to end they can stop perpetuating the war by their individual actions or lack thereof.

So supporting the “troops” is supporting the war. If someone supports these individuals killing other individuals they are supporting the killing of individuals, ergo supporting the war. To attempt to justify it boils down to hypocrisy.

If I am not seeing something that shows how this conclusions is incorrect I would appreciate if someone would point out why or how.
Think of it as karma. If people are being killed by our troops, it is just karma catching up to them.
 
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MachZer0

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What do you mean when you say that?

Do you support the actions of the individuals that lead to the death of other individuals, isn't this what we would call "war"?
I support the actions of individuals (our troops) that lead to the death of other individulas in this war. If those individuals don't want to be dead, they can cease the insurgency and participate in the new government of Iraq in a peaceful manner. Otherwise, I support having our troops introduce them to dying
 
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Psalms34

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"If men were angels, there would be no need for government."

I think Hamilton said that, not sure. Also, in my opinion, if Men were Angels, there would be no war.

But we aren't Angels, are we?
[/size][/color]
Angels war, actually. Probably even more destructive than humans of these days and definetely more so than in Hamilton's time. We just don't usually see it in our dimension (or whatever you want to call it), but the armies of angels have been seen on earth in the past, and they will so again. Angels are quite the warriors, and so will the saints be as well I believe.

I'm not sure why we must support the troops, if they're big enough and stupid enough to join the armed forces surely they can handle the consequences of their decision?
Taken straight from John Kerry diary? After all it is actually what caused his defeat. If he had never said such nonsense, he would have ...swiftly won the presidency w/o the swift boat vets criticism. Anyway, you are from the UK… so you are saying UK troops are that stupid? Perhaps you do them a disservice? I don’t really have a problem if you don’t support OUR troops, our troopers aren’t stupid, just like ccgirl actually being in Canada saying garbage against US soldiers, so what?!? Most of the nations are completely saturated with leftist propaganda anyway, you gotta actually want to know the truth to find it in this mess, and most people have no love for the truth, let alone care enough find out for whatever reason. Knowledge may have increased in these last days, but so has the propaganda machines and their form of knowledge.
 
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Lisa0315

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Correct, if individuals choose not participate in the war there would be no war.

No it wouldn't.

And what was the main reason for that fight? They were all fighting for their independence, their individual rights that Britain was trying to take from them.

This is why there is a Declaration of Independence.


So it was individuals fighting for their own individual rights because some other individuals thought they had some right to control the lives of other individuals.

This is why they were careful to say that it is the right of the individuals to abolish any form of government if it is in contrast of the rights that all individuals have. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

I am talking about the Civil War not the Revolutionary War. I am talking about a war in which one people fought another people for the freedom of still yet another people.

According to your logic, this was wrong to do. There should have been no war unless the slaves themselves rose up to free themselves.

Wrong!!!!

Lisa
 
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Lisa0315

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I think if you poll the troops and ask "How can we support you", the vast majority will say "Bring us home".

Maybe so, but that is not what the OP is saying. He BLAMES the troops for being there to begin with.

Lisa
 
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uberd00b

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Anyway, you are from the UK… so you are saying UK troops are that stupid?
They signed up.
Perhaps you do them a disservice?
I don't think so. There is no clamour over here to support the troops (or at least very little, and what little we have is aped behaviour from over your side of the pond I think). What do they expect? A shoulder to cry on? They joined the army, if they thought it was going to be handing out stuffed toys and sweets to kids they're in for a rude awakening.

Two of my good friends joined the forces, one because he wanted to kill people, the other because he had not a lot else to do. The second guy is the sort of guy you take out for a drink and inevitably end up pulling him off some random stranger who "looked at him funny".
I don’t really have a problem if you don’t support OUR troops,
This has nothing to do with nationality from my point of view.
our troopers aren’t stupid
They signed up.

It's a job*, if they can't handle it and require "support" what the heck where they doing signing up in the first place?

* and not a very good one at that. You get idiots screaming orders at you, the pay is lousy and people try and kill you.
 
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joebudda

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Think of it as karma. If people are being killed by our troops, it is just karma catching up to them.

Why the need to make stuff up to justify it?

Any justification is just an opinion to condone the killing of others.

I personally believe that opinions are not as important the the lives of individuals.
 
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Lisa0315

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Why the need to make stuff up to justify it?

Any justification is just an opinion to condone the killing of others.

I personally believe that opinions are not as important the the lives of individuals.

Are you for or against abortion? Are you for or against the death penalty?

Lisa
 
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joebudda

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I support the actions of individuals (our troops) that lead to the death of other individulas in this war. If those individuals don't want to be dead, they can cease the insurgency and participate in the new government of Iraq in a peaceful manner. Otherwise, I support having our troops introduce them to dying

So now you justify it (your opinion) by blaming the death of individuals on the individuals themselves for being there.

This is collectivism at it finest. Not only do you group these 90,000 civilians out of their identity but you also blame them for falling into this collective you created for them.
 
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joebudda

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"If men were angels, there would be no need for government."

I think Hamilton said that, not sure. Also, in my opinion, if Men were Angels, there would be no war.

But we aren't Angels, are we?
[/SIZE][/COLOR]

But there really isn't government. There are individuals who believe and act as if they control other individuals, but it is nothing but a concept forced onto individuals whether they believe in the illusion or not.

So people are forced with threats and punishment to be obedient little subjects to these individuals who claim that this concept (government) gives them some imagined authority to force their will onto others.
 
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joebudda

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I am talking about the Civil War not the Revolutionary War. I am talking about a war in which one people fought another people for the freedom of still yet another people.

According to your logic, this was wrong to do. There should have been no war unless the slaves themselves rose up to free themselves.

Wrong!!!!

Lisa
This is the third time I had to write this out, the site is freaking out.

Individuals forcing their will onto other individuals is wrong, no mater what justification we use to persuade ourselves. And justifications are nothing more then opinions, they don't even exist accept in the minds of those who justify it. This allows us to delude ourselves into believing that individual rights are not as important as some opinion. The reality is the result, not the justification, the result is the marginalizing of individuals no mater what the justification is.

The slave owners were not recognizing the individual rights of the individuals marginalized as slaves. The slaves should have risen up to stand up for their individual rights. Like many were doing at the time and for decades prior. And lets not forget that it was also a war to break down the power the southern plantation owners had over the government.

And being these "armies" were individuals who choose to force their will onto other individuals only furthers my point. It is the actions of individuals in war that cause war.

Yet if we look at the rest of the western world at the time they didn't need a war to end slavery. It was phased out without the need for the excess death caused in the war because of the opinion that some individuals had no "right to life".

So what you are doing is nothing more then presenting a red herring. You are saying that some war is good, or at least you are insinuating it. If you support any war you support the illusion of collectivism by removing individuality and rights from individuals. And it is in doing this you create the opinion that the lives of the dead individuals are worth less then this opinion (justification).

Just like the Nazis, their opinion (justification) was more important then the lives of the Jews. The "greater good" entailed grouping these individuals (Jews) into some collective where these individuals (Nazis) were able to justify their actions as "good". This made a group of individuals (Jews) lives worth less because they were part of this imaginary collective having no individuality or rights because of these other individuals (Nazis) justification (opinion, greater good).
 
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joebudda

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Maybe so, but that is not what the OP is saying. He BLAMES the troops for being there to begin with.

Lisa
I believe that individuals control themselves.
If they are not responsible for their own actions then what are they, mindless drones, robots, puppets hanging from strings?

There is no draft so these individuals decided for themselves to fight in this war.

I am unsure why you would assume these individuals don't control their own actions. Maybe cognitive dissonance?
 
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