the changing speed of light. dad, this thread is for you

[NailsII]

Before we derail another thread, maybe we should consider the option of starting a new thread or even a debate in an attempt to reach some common ground or mutual understanding.
Or just to slate the hell out of each other's opinions, which might seem more likely.

Doesn't matter a bit! We are not perfect, but saved wicked men. Better than damned wicked men.

And the distinction is?
Wrong is wrong, and any belief system which allows the henous to acheive salvation ha got to be fundamentally wrong, but you obviously cannot grasp this concept.
So, if heaven allows murders and rapists who repnt, what about the poor people they have abused?
Lets say a 3 year old girl is raped and murdered and she is too young to choose her own religion. If she is raised in the wrong one or doesn't understand any of it for whatever reason - which cannot be her fault due to her age - then she goes to hell.
The murderer however, can repent and go to heaven.
Rightousness?
You can keep it.

Nope, we at least are making baby steps on the way! Any miscomprehension there is likely due to your having no real knowledge of what is really good and evil!!!!!!!!!
I think that the believers were the ones told to repent, no? All we need for heaven, that I am aware is belief in Jesus, which inspires some repenting.

You can continue your baby steps to go with your baby maths. Some of us can see through this charade and choose an adult outlook on life.
And as for an atheist having no real knowledge of good and evil, why then is their a much lower crime rate in secular Sweden than god-filled and righteous America?

If they believe, they go. If they believe they will not dream of doing the things you speak of. If some are forgiven for crimes, rejoice, you are a depraved man yourself.

That may be true, I will not confess to any realm of perfection.
But don't think for one minute that the only way to lead a good life (and follow right and wrong) is to believe in Jesus.

So hard it is only in your head, apparently.

Evidence in my own head?
Funny, I thought you were the one who described your inspiration as being beyond the senses and originating in the 'spiritual' centre of your brain all by itself.

It is the blood of Jesus that was spilled, and only Him that makes us righteous before the Father. Not your own stinking works, or mine.

So Abraham was not a Righteous man then, because he died before Jesus was born?

Shall we all bow our heads now?

You are the one who is more familiar with positioning yourself in a posture of bondage, so I will leave this to your judgement.

Today.

As I know you have no evidence for this claim, and even if you did you wouldn't disclose it, I will call you a bare faced liar.

Evidence for that???

I already provided a reference for my position on the cruelty inflicted by the so called saintly Mother Theresa.

Tough. Far as I know there are not many deathbed salvations. But if the odd thief on the cross is sorry, I can dig it.

But that is the point that you are missing completely. The wicked have more to fear on their deathbed in your belief system and so are much more likely to repent.
If you are right, then heaven is full of the henous who converted at te last minute.
Still appealing?

If they talk of Godless lies, their time is limited.

Being godless is not a lie.
Pythagoras theorum does not require a deity in the equation, so is that evil devil-inspired nonsense as well?

You think wrong. Science has nothing at all to do with your pagan same state past myth.

I don't have a belief system, I trust the evidence that is repeatable and corroborated (ie sound scientific enquiry). When that is not available, I go on experience and gut-feelings - the evolved decision making system.
I certainly don't rely on myths, and your belief system is much more pagan-based than you would care to admit.

Such is the knowledge of good and evil.

As we both know, many tools can be used for right and wrong no.

They are right, but so are they.

but they will go to hell, right?

He never got it though! Didn't seem to stop him. Guess he couldn't really care less. Dig a little deeper, man.

But he thought he did.
So did god tell you different?
What did he tell Pat Robertson, another prophet wannabe with a hotline to god.
Maybe the Pope knows, he is the supposed God-rep.
But he seems to care more about appeasing Islam and exorcising demons (quite literally) at the moment.

 

[NailsII]

Even though these answers were not for me, I would like to answer them anyway.

The bible happens to be a little more than thinking. I am not wary of pointing out obvious real limitations of man's abilities and knowledge.

Science is about pushing the limits of knowledge, the bible is a tool for limiting knowledge.
It quashes thinking and rational thought.

How would you know how the brain works during inspiration???? Stick to what you know.

MRi scans perhaps?
Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean there isn't a rational explanation.

This we know, because, .... .... ? They pass through physical things?? Besides, who cares what they do? They are an example of things passing through the world of man, that we don't generally see.

Scientific research has shown us they pass straight through virtually everything.
But as you researched this and provided a link to neutrinos in the first place, you would already know this, right?

No, try and stop me. If the past and future are involved, I cam waltz all over anything you try to throw up as known.

Let me know when you want to start overturning knowledge instead of spinning yarns then.

 

[NailsII]

You don't see too deep.

Syas you who ony reads two books and expects all knowledge, wisdom and guidance to come from there.

Nope, Gen 1 is the order. Count on it. The serpent, by the way was not a snake with legs, far as I know. That simply denotes the limited change POers imagine that the creature actually underwent.

It says it is now a legless, dirt-eating snake, so unless god changed more DNA which wasn't narrated then I will assume it is a snake - and they still show vestigal rear legs and hips.
Genesis 1 is a myth, and your argument only shows how limited the book and your interpretaion of it are.

Reference?
Read what again?

[BIBLE]Luke 12:46[/BIBLE]
The bible of course, you only ever refer to the nice bits.

I thought it was men that murdered the martyrs? And Jesus? And attacked His people? God is not the liar.

But you claimed it was the work of the devil, which I refuted as the actions of men.
you have yet to present any evidence for your interventionist deity, let alone his destructive nemesis.

No, we don't. Adultery is not OK.

Wrong, but no longer punishable by death, so its not as wrong as it use to be.
But polygamy is adultery, and you have already stated in a previous thread that it is OK to be a polygamist and align yourself with the biblical greats.
So how are they different?
And trust me, the story of let him without sin cast the stone is total fiction and does not appear in the earliest biblical records.

The brain receives input. Man gets input from the ears and eyes. Light and sound do influence our thoughts.

I'm sorry but you are factually inaccurate as you are implying that the brain is influenced by stimulii that by-passes the sense organs.
You specifically made up a story of high-energy particles interacting with neurons, are you now wishing to reject this claim?

Look at the post where it mentions that cells are made of this, and this is made of that, and that includes the other.

So if water is made from hydrogen and oxygen, then everything that is made from hydrogen and oxygen (regarless of what else is present) will interact in some way.
Except fats and oils will not interact with water, they are mutually exclusive.
so your point is meaningless and baseless.

The present fundamental forces of this universe affect how the physical body, and brain respond to interactions with things physical, and with things spiritual. Various inputs affecting our thoughts, work a certain way, using the physical mechanics in place. The physical is affected by the spiritual, and as we approach the atomic and quantum levels, there is interaction there. Our current understanding is not at the depth where it can grasp things as anything but physical. So it defines all in those terms. But not from a standpoint of knowledge. But limitations, stemming from ignorance.

You have absolutely no knowledge of the quantum world, because that relies on scientific enquirey which, as it excludes god, you automatically reject.
And if spiritual forces can interact with physical features, they must be measurable and not supernatural.
Yet again you are trying to tie in your non sensicle ideas with logic and reason, and justify it by using terms you don't understand like quantum and spiritual.

Maybe not. But I wonder if you are qualified to speak to what the spiritual really can affect? And if something was affected, spiritually, how would you detect it??

If it interacts with nature and physical objects, it must be measurable.
Glad you admit the neutrino bit was a shoddy attempt at pulling the wool over someones eyes though.

That doesn't tell us what is good and evil. Antibiotics are starting to fail, new diseases come to exist, and vaccinations are seen as something to be avoided by millions.

Vaccinations are only viewed with distrust by those with
poor methodology (ie Dr. Meadows, whose premature conclusion about MMR with insufficient evidence were fool-hardily reported in the world media as fact), poor knowledge or pre-existing scince-hating religious bigotry. I can't believe that someone as intelligent as yourself could accept this as truth, I hope that such an attitude is largely the domain of shaymen and Islam nut-jobs in backwards third-world style hell-holes.
And evolutionary theory explains antibiotic resistance, hopefully medical technology may soon be able to keep up. But again, misuse and ignorance have helped exagerate this problem, which unfortunately is a weakness of minkind - whether spiritually guided or not.

There is more to good and evil than self preservation, and dog eat dog, kill the less fit animal doctrines of devils.

Don't twist this - I asked for a reference.
Of course their is more to good and evil than self preservation, havn't you seen star wars?
And kill the less fit is such a poor way to attempt to describe evolution, I'm sure you are intelligent enough to see this and this was just a little word game to try and wind me up.
But what have devils got to do with it?
Unless you mean Tasmania devils, another animal that creationism and the bible has yet to explain the existance of.

 

[Adivi]

Right, and we assume that they travel a certain speed. I guess we also assume that the weak force was here for a long while!

When we're taking solar measurements, we assume the weak force has existed for the past eight minutes. Which it has, otherwise the people running nuclear power plants would've noticed that the energy output dropped to zero.

 

[dad]

And the distinction is?

That we have eternity to improve, and a Helper.

Wrong is wrong, and any belief system which allows the henous to acheive salvation ha got to be fundamentally wrong, but you obviously cannot grasp this concept.

All men are heinous. Depraved, and desperately wicked. You fail to grasp that point.

So, if heaven allows murders and rapists who repnt, what about the poor people they have abused?

Most men are abused in this life, it seems, one way or the other. Whether fighting and suffering and dying useless wars, being robbed by the wealthy, sickened by man's poisons, or drugs, etc.. Oh, did I forget to mention having their faith offended in schools?

Lets say a 3 year old girl is raped and murdered and she is too young to choose her own religion. If she is raised in the wrong one or doesn't understand any of it for whatever reason - which cannot be her fault due to her age - then she goes to hell.

Nope. I think we need to reach the age of decision for that sort of thing. Just like the 44 million (or whatever precise number) babies murdered every year, ripped from the womb. Do you think they went to hell???

The murderer however, can repent and go to heaven.
Rightousness?
You can keep it.

He that hates his brother is a murderer. He that takes more than his share on earth might be responsible for others dying? Drunk drivers, and other drivers sometimes kill people. Hospitals by mistakes kill plenty. Drugs that stores sell kill plenty. Countries like the US have killed millions. In horrible ways. Those that support the countries might have some blame.
Man's wicked heart, and nature is the killer. If God forgives some, then who are wicked you or I, to complain?

And as for an atheist having no real knowledge of good and evil, why then is their a much lower crime rate in secular Sweden than god-filled and righteous America?

I notice this about Sweden.
"Abortion Act of 1974. This states that up until the end of the eighteenth week of the pregnancy the choice of an abortion is entirely up to the woman, for any reason whatsoever. After the 18th and until the 22nd week a woman needs to get permission from the authorities to have an abortion. Permission for these late abortions are usually granted in cases when the fetus or the mother are unhealthy. The issue is largely settled, the question of the legality of abortion is not a political issue, and no relevant debates exist on the matter." wiki

Well, a whole society of wicked mass murderers, without even a conscience left, apparently! Need I go on? Yech. They should thank God from the bottom of their hearts and souls I am not God.

That may be true, I will not confess to any realm of perfection.
But don't think for one minute that the only way to lead a good life (and follow right and wrong) is to believe in Jesus.

Who said anything about a so called good life??? Is that like a Swedish life??

Evidence in my own head?
Funny, I thought you were the one who described your inspiration as being beyond the senses and originating in the 'spiritual' centre of your brain all by itself.

Actually, I consider the brain as more of a hard drive. A place where we store stuff, and process stuff. A lot of the stuff is from the inner being of man, and outside input. It is not where man resides.

So Abraham was not a Righteous man then, because he died before Jesus was born?

He believed Jesus would come.

As I know you have no evidence for this claim, and even if you did you wouldn't disclose it, I will call you a bare faced liar.

"So, when was the last time someone you knew was healed by the bible, or innoculated against a nasty childhood disease by prayer?"
Anti God evolution is a childhood disease. Many are inoculated against it each day. He also can protect us from physical diseases. Many have been healed of drugs, and alcohol abuse, which is a disease, it is claimed. I recently was around a bunch of people that had some sort of flu. I said a little prayer that I might not get it, if possible. Apparently, it was possible.

I already provided a reference for my position on the cruelty inflicted by the so called saintly Mother Theresa.

I see. A book. Ridiculous. I meant proof that mother T wanted people to suffer, as you charge.

Your book, apparently was written by the son of
" (Speaking of Stalin, it is not unimportant that Hitchens' father was a gunrunner for Old Joe, proving once again the maxim "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.")"
!!
"he is a determined atheist, he cannot come to terms with Mother Teresa's spirituality and the millions who adore her.."

"His book, by the way, is a 98 page essay printed on eight-and-a-half by five-and-a-half inch paper, one that is so small it could easily fit into the opening of a sewer. It contains no footnotes, no citations of any kind"

--As for her letter to a donor, seems like it was no crime to me.

""I do not know anything about Mr. Charles Keating's work," Mother Teresa said, "or his business or the matters you are dealing with." She then explains her letter by saying "Mr. Keating has done much to help the poor, which is why I am writing to you on his behalf."

"..Marxist Institute for Policy Studies (a favorite Hitchens cell)"

"She doesn't pick and choose which countries to go to on the basis of internal politics, and this explains why she has visited both right-wing repressive nations like Haiti and left-wing repressive nations like Albania. Hitchens can't stomach this and indicts Mother Teresa for servicing dictatorships. Now if his logic is to be followed here, then most Peace Corps workers and Red Cross personnel are guilty of courting despots."
"An unrelenting secularist, he cannot comprehend how Mother Teresa can console the terminally ill by saying, "You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you." Hitchens is so far gone that he cannot make sense of Christ's admonition that "The poor will always be with you." Not surprisingly, Hitchens says "I remember as a child finding this famous crack rather unsatisfactory. Either one eschews luxury and serves the poor or one does not." But he just doesn't get it: Mother Teresa eschews luxury and serves the poor, yet not for a moment does she believe that she is conquering poverty in the meantime. Only someone hopelessly wedded to a materialist vision of the world would think otherwise."

he chastises Mother Teresa for not working cooperatively with the City of New York when she refused to install an elevator in a building she was acquiring to service the homeless. What he doesn't mention is that the Missionaries of Charity pledged to carry the handicapped up the stairs, making moot the need for an elevator."

"he writes that "it is difficult to spend any time at all in Calcutta and conclude that what it most needs is a campaign against population control."

"... irrational tracts written by vindictive authors."
http://www.catholicleague.org/rer.php?topic=Book+Reviews&id=27

You can have your saint accusing pinko son of a gunrunner, who seems to feel that eliminating the people of Calcutta is better than loving them.

But that is the point that you are missing completely. The wicked have more to fear on their deathbed in your belief system and so are much more likely to repent.

But do the numbers bear that out?

If you are right, then heaven is full of the henous who converted at te last minute.
Still appealing?

I think most decide to believe in the process of life.

Being godless is not a lie.
Pythagoras theorum does not require a deity in the equation, so is that evil devil-inspired nonsense as well?

Does it deny Jesus, and the creation??

I don't have a belief system, I trust the evidence that is repeatable and corroborated (ie sound scientific enquiry).

That doesn't include the same past state or future state myths.

When that is not available, I go on experience and gut-feelings - the evolved decision making system.

No, you might as well toss a pair of dice. Nothing evolved about it.

I certainly don't rely on myths, and your belief system is much more pagan-based than you would care to admit.

No, theirs is much more based on the creation than they are aware.

As we both know, many tools can be used for right and wrong no.

but they will go to hell, right?

How would I know? Many people, during the last seven years of history will fight the Antichrist. I suspect many Muslims will be included there. Many atheists, and Jewish people, and others will also come to believe in that time.
But that does not mean that all nations are not wicked, since they are full of sinful men.

But he thought he did.
So did god tell you different?
What did he tell Pat Robertson, another prophet wannabe with a hotline to god.

I don't know. But who cares what he told Pat, point is, it wasn't God that made him do it. Face it.

Maybe the Pope knows, he is the supposed God-rep.

He was against the war.

But he seems to care more about appeasing Islam and exorcising demons (quite literally) at the moment.

Do you have something against Islam, now?? Or getting rid of demons?

 

[dad]

When we're taking solar measurements, we assume the weak force has existed for the past eight minutes. Which it has, otherwise the people running nuclear power plants would've noticed that the energy output dropped to zero.

There were the fundamental forces and laws before the plants were built. Who cares how long one lasted in a plant one day???

 

[dad]

Even though these answers were not for me, I would like to answer them anyway.
Science is about pushing the limits of knowledge, the bible is a tool for limiting knowledge.

Well, it can try, in it's weak little way. You can try to push over a mountain, if you like as well. PO science only has so much to push with.

It quashes thinking and rational thought.

No, it quashes the delusions of wicked little man's foolish fables.

MRi scans perhaps?
Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean there isn't a rational explanation.

You use MRI on people during spiritual inspirations? prove it, perhaps.

Scientific research has shown us they pass straight through virtually everything.
But as you researched this and provided a link to neutrinos in the first place, you would already know this, right?

Science is in no position to speak about everything, it means everything physical, or in the fishbowl. That matters not. Sound waves might pass through us as well, but we pick stuff up, sometimes, on the way through!!

Let me know when you want to start overturning knowledge instead of spinning yarns then.

Well, let me know when you get some, more than man's dust on the scale type stuff. When we see what man proposes, if it opposes truth, I'll try to see to it that God disposes it. Meanwhile, we wouldn't need a tea spoon to overturn the dirt dished up so far.

 

[dad]

It says it is now a legless, dirt-eating snake, so unless god changed more DNA which wasn't narrated then I will assume it is a snake - and they still show vestigal rear legs and hips.

Well, we don't know if that is because the snake evolved along the way, rather than the creature that the snake came from originally, now do we??!

Genesis 1 is a myth, and your argument only shows how limited the book and your interpretaion of it are.

False. If you want to talk nonsense, without proof, you are just blowing smoke.

[bible]Luke 12:46[/bible]
The bible of course, you only ever refer to the nice bits.

36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

So??

But you claimed it was the work of the devil, which I refuted as the actions of men.
you have yet to present any evidence for your interventionist deity, let alone his destructive nemesis.

The devil works with sinful men.

Wrong, but no longer punishable by death, so its not as wrong as it use to be.

Wrong enough to dump the wife.

But polygamy is adultery, and you have already stated in a previous thread that it is OK to be a polygamist and align yourself with the biblical greats.

God didn't seem to slay Abraham, or others for having more than one wife. I am not sure that it would work as well today.

So how are they different?
And trust me, the story of let him without sin cast the stone is total fiction and does not appear in the earliest biblical records.

If it got in there, I would suspect there is a good reason. If I noticed that bit was not included, I would add it in as well. Nice story. It also is just like Jesus. I see no reason to doubt it at all.

I'm sorry but you are factually inaccurate as you are implying that the brain is influenced by stimulii that by-passes the sense organs.
You specifically made up a story of high-energy particles interacting with neurons, are you now wishing to reject this claim?

"QUARK: SIMPLY ENERGY. CAN’T BE SEEN UNDER ANY MICROSCOPE. – quarks are packets of energy with masslike quality. They are not only too small to be seen under a microscope, they are thought not exist in nature except as pairs or triplets

ATOM: MADE FROM QUARKS. HAS PROTONS, NEUTRONS. THESE MAKE MOLECULES. – three quarks make a proton, and three are needed to make a neutron. An atom will have one or more protons and zero or more neutrons. But it will also have an electron for each proton, and this is not made from quarks. So, an atom is made from quarks, but not just quarks

MOLECULE: THESE ARE MADE FROM ATOMS. EXAMPLES OF MOLECULES ARE: HYDROGEN, OXYGEN.

ORGANELLE: MADE OF MOLECULES AND ARE THE SMALL ORGANS IN EACH CELL. EXAMPLES IN AMINAL CELLS ARE: NEUCLEUS, RIBOSOME, LYSOSOME.

CELL: MADE UP OF ORGANELLES. CELLS ARE THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF LIFE. – Cells are compsed of organelles, but more: the are also made of cytoplasm containing those organelles and wrapped in a cell membrane"

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/answers2...6062513AAE81Bk


If cells, such as brain cells, and neurons, are composed of more elementary things, how would we know what reacts to what, in a process involving the spiritual???

If neutrinos, or anti neutrinos are involved in processes, can we really rule them out as possibly having any influence on man's input??
"Outside the nucleus, free neutrons are unstable and have a mean lifetime of 885.7±0.8 seconds (about 15 minutes), decaying by emission of a negative electron and antineutrino to become a proton:[2]"
wiki

So if water is made from hydrogen and oxygen, then everything that is made from hydrogen and oxygen (regarless of what else is present) will interact in some way.
Except fats and oils will not interact with water, they are mutually exclusive.
so your point is meaningless and baseless.

No, not everything has to interact. But, in the case of man, when we get down to the quantum level, and atomic level, and sub atomic level interactions, we can't just rule out spiritual interactions in the mix somehow.

You have absolutely no knowledge of the quantum world, because that relies on scientific enquirey which, as it excludes god, you automatically reject.

False. No is a big word. I can usually spell quantum, that is some knowledge. I have also read of some of the mysteries of it. That means I am on equal footing with others that do not know. Having the good fortune to know other things that likely affect the quantum, I can have a better chance at putting together the pieces. The spiritual realities, and past and future states cover everything better than they can.

And if spiritual forces can interact with physical features, they must be measurable and not supernatural.

If they are, why can't you measure them!?

Yet again you are trying to tie in your non sensicle ideas with logic and reason, and justify it by using terms you don't understand like quantum and spiritual.

I think that I understand the spiritual a wee bit, and the quantum a very wee bit. Science does not understand the quantum, save how it works, it seems, and has no clue about the spiritual!!! They couldn't tie their shoelaces together, lest they stuck their foot in the fishbowl.

If it interacts with nature and physical objects, it must be measurable.
Glad you admit the neutrino bit was a shoddy attempt at pulling the wool over someones eyes though.

Trillions of little bits passing through the body per second illustrate that there are things going on we can't see. The interactions of quantum level particles, we really can't say a lot about, when the spiritual is added to the mix, now can we??

Vaccinations are only viewed with distrust by those with
poor methodology (ie Dr. Meadows, whose premature conclusion about MMR with insufficient evidence were fool-hardily reported in the world media as fact), poor knowledge or pre-existing scince-hating religious bigotry.

I distrust them implicitly. They can go to hell.

I can't believe that someone as intelligent as yourself could accept this as truth, I hope that such an attitude is largely the domain of shaymen and Islam nut-jobs in backwards third-world style hell-holes.

People have a right to reject the modern medicine men! I certainly take them with a grain of salt. I consider the child killers criminals. I consider the shrinks largely insane. I consider the medical profession over rated. They have a place, but it is a smaller place than some of the little would be gods think it is.

And evolutionary theory explains antibiotic resistance, hopefully medical technology may soon be able to keep up. But again, misuse and ignorance have helped exagerate this problem, which unfortunately is a weakness of minkind - whether spiritually guided or not.

Tough. If they didn't unhitch their medical wagon from the death star of pond evolution, they deserve to be frowned on.

Don't twist this - I asked for a reference.

What sort of reference? Bible?

Of course their is more to good and evil than self preservation, havn't you seen star wars?

Yes, but I never got my life code from it.

And kill the less fit is such a poor way to attempt to describe evolution, I'm sure you are intelligent enough to see this and this was just a little word game to try and wind me up.

I do not consider animalistic demeaning fables intelligent. I consider the pond, an insult to dignity and intelligence, and man, and God.

But what have devils got to do with it?
Unless you mean Tasmania devils, another animal that creationism and the bible has yet to explain the existance of.

Devils doctrines are usually designed to destroy faith in God. Spirits influence the world of men. The theories that cast out God are no accident, they are inspired.
1Ti 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[NailsII]

That we have eternity to improve, and a Helper.

So god is not just then, after all.
He is the great rehabilitator, who cares little for the victims as he seems fit to banish them to hell or re-acquaint them with their attackers in heaven.

All men are heinous. Depraved, and desperately wicked. You fail to grasp that point.

All men are capable of such acts, but their is a big distinction between ability and action - you have obviously failed to see this concept.

Most men are abused in this life, it seems, one way or the other. Whether fighting and suffering and dying useless wars, being robbed by
the wealthy, sickened by man's poisons, or drugs, etc.. Oh, did I forget to mention having their faith offended in schools?

And that's on a par with being raped and murdered?
And as for offending your faith, I didn't see you as the type to just sit their and wait to be offended as many religious people do.

Nope. I think we need to reach the age of decision for that sort of thing. Just like the 44 million (or whatever precise number) babies
murdered every year, ripped from the womb. Do you think they went to hell???

As I have previously pointed out, only around 1 in seven sexual encounters in humans leads to a viable pregnancy.
You dodn't need to be brilliant at maths to see how many 'babies' are automatically rejected by the body before the woman even knows she is pregnant, or
shortly after.
Is this murder, or just a consequence of our evolution (or something else).
Makes you wonder though, if the 'soul' is apparant as soon as the cell is fertilised, then that's a lot of incoming for god to deal with.
Oh no, of course - they go straight to hell because they havn't been given the opportunity to love Jesus. Silly me.

He that hates his brother is a murderer. He that takes more than his share on earth might be responsible for others dying? Drunk drivers,
and other drivers sometimes kill people. Hospitals by mistakes kill plenty. Drugs that stores sell kill plenty. Countries like the US have killed millions.
In horrible ways. Those that support the countries might have some blame.

My point here is simple - think of the victims.
Someone who is hated will have much more sympathy with their enemy than someone who is tortured, raped and murdered painfully.
But in heaven there is no such distinction.
And that absolutely appalls me.
To hate is not to murder, otherwise there would have been many more Jews stoned to death under Moses' leadership.

Man's wicked heart, and nature is the killer. If God forgives some, then who are wicked you or I, to complain?

my heart is an
organ that pumps blood around my body in response to electrical stimulation.
Or os this devil science because it contradicts the bible as well?
Abraham found it useful to complain to god, so maybe if I am wrong i will give it a go.

I notice this about Sweden.
* snip *
Well, a whole society of wicked mass murderers, without even a conscience left, apparently! Need I go on? Yech. They should thank God from the bottom of
their hearts and souls I am not God.

So they are all murderers for having liberal abortion laws?
I note that you again dodged the question and attempted to misdirect me with a curve-ball, you should have been a polititan.
The question I am still waiting to be answered is why is there a greater crime rate in Christian-dominated America compared to secular Sweden.
Not so long ago in britain we used to need have two GP's signatures to perform an aborion, but I think now it only requires one.
The reasons for this are quite clear, to allow for a medical procedure to be carried out in a safe environment.
Logic dictates that, as the procedure is going to be done anyway (whether the law allows it or not) then steps should be taken to allow an abortion to be
carried out in a safe and clean environment to protect the lives of those who choose to have it done.
And that makes perfect sense to me.
This is not a big issue for me; no-one has aborted one of my potential children (to the best of my knowledge) but I sympathise with those who wish to have it
done. Personally I believe the decision lies with the mother and the best way for her to make the decision is to be well informed and not have to worry about
dying from blood poisoning in a dirty back-street illegal clinic.
Lest we forget, it is quite possible to induce miscarriage through a dangerous mix of alcohol and medicines readily available over the counter (and some not
so readily available) - but is this murder as well?

Who said anything about a so called good life??? Is that like a Swedish life??

Leading a good life is a moral aim in my opinion, and one that many people strive for.
Thankfully, many of us don't need a big-brother threat to keep us on the straight and narrow, we are capable of being nice without threats of eternal
damnation.

Actually, I consider the brain as more of a hard drive. A place where we store stuff, and process stuff. A lot of the stuff is from the
inner being of man, and outside input. It is not where man resides.

Wow, i gotta see your 'puter - my hard drive only stores things.
I have to rely on a seperate device to process stuff, its called a.......... processor.
I think we are merely more than the sum of our parts.

He believed Jesus would come.

I'm not entirely sure of the first prophesy of Jesus' arrival in the OT, can you provide a reference for me please?

Anti God evolution is a childhood disease. Many are inoculated against it each day. He also can protect us from physical diseases. Many
have been healed of drugs, and alcohol abuse, which is a disease, it is claimed. I recently was around a bunch of people that had some sort of flu. I said a
little prayer that I might not get it, if possible. Apparently, it was possible.

Evolution is not anti-god, Darwin's theory (and Wallaces, for that matter) and all subsequent modifications do not comment on god or the bible.
Disease:
an impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Evolution does not fit the criteria of a disease. If it did, then you might have a point.
But you knew exactly what I meant, I was refering to the germ theory of disease.
Homeopathy also claims to heal alcoholics/drug addicts and allergies, but not diabetes or amputation - do you think there is a reason for this?
While I am pleased you have stayed cold-free, I'm sure that your use of prayer was incidental rather than causitive.
The insult still stands - unless you can show me some evidence that the bible or prayer can have a measurable effect on a contagious germ-based infection or
hereditary disease, then you are telling porkies. For bonus points, you could show how prayer helps amputated limbs grow back - but note there are no false
legs or prosthetic arms at Lourdes......

I see. A book. Ridiculous. I meant proof that mother T wanted people to suffer, as you charge.

Your book, apparently was written by the son of (Speaking of Stalin, it is not unimportant that Hitchens' father was a gunrunner for Old
Joe, proving once again the maxim "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.")"
You can have your saint accusing pinko son of a gunrunner, who seems to feel that eliminating the people of Calcutta is better than loving them.

Not wanted, merely allowed. To say wanting is to imply that she inflicted it, and as we all know good Christians do not induce pain in others.
Funny how I suggest a book, and you sneer - yet hold your book up as the be-all-and-end-all.
Hitchens is a lot of things, and many peopl ecan paint a less than colourful pictue of him. But what his father did is basically irrelevant.
As for eliminating the poor, it is interesting to note that many disease-ridden and economically stunted countries have run-away rates of childbirth which
excasperate the problems some what. It would appear to be a logical conclusion that control of birth rates might appear to alleviate the symptoms a little.

But do the numbers bear that out?

I'm not worried about stats here, one would be enough to sour everything for me.
But I'd wager on a high number of convicted murderers trying to take out the ultimate after-life insurance.

I think most decide to believe in the process of life.

think or hope?

Does it deny Jesus, and the creation??

Like all of good scientific enquirey, it is not concerned with god. It neither includes nor excludes god.

That doesn't include the same past state or future state myths.

They are your myths, I will leave you to decide.

No, you might as well toss a pair of dice. Nothing evolved about it.

But tossing a dice does not allow for experience, no direction of what works and what doesn't. That is why evolution belies its simplistic origins and
implies an illusion of intelligent intervention.

No, theirs is much more based on the creation than they are aware.

Whose, the Pagans?

How would I know? Many people, during the last seven years of history will fight the Antichrist. I suspect many Muslims will be included
there. Many atheists, and Jewish people, and others will also come to believe in that time.

But if they stay muslims of Jews, they are still condemned
no matter which side they fight on. And that sucks.

But that does not mean that all nations are not wicked, since they are full of sinful men.

sO repenting sinful men are OK then?
no matter what the sin?

I don't know. But who cares what he told Pat, point is, it wasn't God that made him do it. Face it.

But he obviously didn't tell him not to.
Robertsons'prophesies leave a lot to be desired also - so are they talking to god or themselves?

He was against the war.

Good for him.

Do you have something against Islam, now?? Or getting rid of demons?

There are no demons to get rid of, and i have nothing against
any group. I try to take each individual as I find them and judge them on their own merits. It was merely an observation.

 

[NailsII]

Well, it can try, in it's weak little way. You can try to push over a mountain, if you like as well. PO science only has so much to push
with.

Only faith can move mountains, but I have love in my life so do I have nothing?
PO science, refering to what exactly?
What does PO mean?
Besides, science doesn't push over mountains, it merely builds them from evidence.

No, it quashes the delusions of wicked little man's foolish fables.

Eesop's fables? Surely you jest, sir.

You use MRI on people during spiritual inspirations? prove it, perhaps.

Why not?
It has been attempted to use brain scans to detect brain activity during telepathic encounters; it might be interesting to scan someone while praying.
Or it might not.
If I apply for a research grant, would you volunteer for me?

Science is in no position to speak about everything, it means everything physical, or in the fishbowl. That matters not. Sound waves might
pass through us as well, but we pick stuff up, sometimes, on the way through!!

I'm pretty sure sound waves are propagated vibrations which we can pretty much feel as they stimulate touch receptors in our skin.
High pressure waves such as those from bomb detonations at close range can turn internal organs to a pulp - is this what you mean by 'pick stuff up, on the
way through?

Well, let me know when you get some, more than man's dust on the scale type stuff. When we see what man proposes, if it opposes truth,
I'll try to see to it that God disposes it. Meanwhile, we wouldn't need a tea spoon to overturn the dirt dished up so far.

So how are you so sure that your interpretation really is the truth, as opposed to that of say a theistic evolutionist who believes the laws of physics have
always been constant?

 

[NailsII]

Well, we don't know if that is because the snake evolved along the way, rather than the creature that the snake came from originally, now
do we??!

Are you suggesting common descent in the garden of eden?

False. If you want to talk nonsense, without proof, you are just blowing smoke.

OK, god says he would take the snakes legs away, yet we see vestigal hind legs (COMPLETE WITH HIPS) in some snakes such as pythins today.
So either god lied or its a myth.

36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they
may open unto him immediately.

Just so they don't get stabbed, eh.

So??

the beauty of servitude; that your life is not worth [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth], regardless of the mosaic laws of murder.

The devil works with sinful men.

From what I read, the devil works with god and destroys the family and possessions of believers.

Wrong enough to dump the wife.

So, no longer punished by stoning, but by eternal torture instead - so which is worse?
But again, you could always repent.......

God didn't seem to slay Abraham, or others for having more than one wife. I am not sure that it would work as well today.

Not just more than one wife, didn't Abraham have a mistress?
Isn't that adultery?

If it got in there, I would suspect there is a good reason. If I noticed that bit was not included, I would add it in as well. Nice
story. It also is just like Jesus. I see no reason to doubt it at all.

I didn't say it isn't a nice story, it is probably my favourite verse (after 1
Cor 13 which I chose for my wedding).
But it is exactly because it was not included, it was added around the 3rd or 4th century.
The nice bit is jesus making markets in the sand; obviously spelling out the sins of those around him without a word spoken and to save personal
embarresment.

If cells, such as brain cells, and neurons, are composed of more elementary things, how would we know what reacts to what, in a process
involving the spiritual???

Then everything would react thus, including water.
And I don't think that water molecules are effected by the spiritual.....

If neutrinos, or anti neutrinos are involved in processes, can we really rule them out as possibly having any influence on man's input??

Yes, in the same way we can rule out the planets and stars effecting daily aspects of our personal life.
for one, they cannot confer any information and so cannot transmit a message.

No, not everything has to interact. But, in the case of man, when we get down to the quantum level, and atomic level, and sub atomic
level interactions, we can't just rule out spiritual interactions in the mix somehow.

I think we can you know.

False. No is a big word. I can usually spell quantum, that is some knowledge. I have also read of some of the mysteries of it. That means
I am on equal footing with others that do not know. Having the good fortune to know other things that likely affect the quantum, I can have a better chance
at putting together the pieces. The spiritual realities, and past and future states cover everything better than they can.

Forgive my bluntness, I didn't mean to imply you have zero knowledge, that would obviously be incorrect.
I personally know very little of the quantum world, but I know that quantum theory does not imply that the laws of physics have ever changed, or have ever
been different since the early moments of inflation. String theory on the other hand, does accept changing laws of physics, but again only at the very
beginning of time and space, certainly only a few moments in - not a few days to allow for creation and super-extended light movements to appease the night-
time gazs of the first humans.

If they are, why can't you measure them!?

Simple answer - they're probably not there.

I think that I understand the spiritual a wee bit, and the quantum a very wee bit. Science does not understand the quantum, save how it
works, it seems, and has no clue about the spiritual!!! They couldn't tie their shoelaces together, lest they stuck their foot in the fishbowl.

Trillions of little bits passing through the body per second illustrate that there are things going on we can't see. The interactions of
quantum level particles, we really can't say a lot about, when the spiritual is added to the mix, now can we??

Maybe these super-intelligent spiritual messengers are the only source of beneficial mutation, without which common descent would be unthinkable.

I distrust them implicitly. They can go to hell.

Vaccinations or shoddy scientist?
And on what grounds?

People have a right to reject the modern medicine men! I certainly take them with a grain of salt. I consider the child killers
criminals. I consider the shrinks largely insane. I consider the medical profession over rated. They have a place, but it is a smaller place than some of the
little would be gods think it is.

True, you have the right. But is it wise?
And child killers; is the parent who allows his child to skip a vaccination not guilty if the child dies from that disease?
What if he starts a mini-epidemic and kills several more?
I heard a joke the other night in a Will Smith film, Persuit of Happyness (sic).

A man was drowning and he asked God to save him. A boat came by and offered help, but the man refused. Again he asked for God's help, until a larger
boat came along. A second time the manelected to stay in the water, explaining that God would help him.
The man drowned, and when he arrived in heaven he asked God why He had not helped.
God said "I sent you two boats........."

paraphrased, of course.

Tough. If they didn't unhitch their medical wagon from the death star of pond evolution, they deserve to be frowned on.

Note though that Pasteur's work was based on its own imperical evidence, and not from the theories of others.

What sort of reference? Bible?

If that's all you can offer, i would be unwise to refuse it.

Yes, but I never got my life code from it.

Just as well, or we might be fighting with lightsabers by now........

I do not consider animalistic demeaning fables intelligent. I consider the pond, an insult to dignity and intelligence, and man, and
God.

sO are you saying to me that natural selection is a myth?

Devils doctrines are usually designed to destroy faith in God. Spirits influence the world of men. The theories that cast out God are no
accident, they are inspired.

By holy men, it would seem.
But again, Evolution by natural selection does not comment on God, full stop (period).

1Ti 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits,
and doctrines of devils;

Again, spirits, demons, devils - sounds more like a Harry bloody Potter book.....

 

[dad]

So god is not just then, after all.
He is the great rehabilitator, who cares little for the victims as he seems fit to banish them to hell or re-acquaint them with their attackers in heaven.

He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. If some of the sort you refer to end up in heaven, they certainly will not be able to bother anyone.

All men are capable of such acts, but their is a big distinction between ability and action - you have obviously failed to see this concept.
And that's on a par with being raped and murdered?
And as for offending your faith, I didn't see you as the type to just sit their and wait to be offended as many religious people do.

My faith I am not worried about. But those that offend the little ones are engaged in a crime against humanity.

As I have previously pointed out, only around 1 in seven sexual encounters in humans leads to a viable pregnancy.
You dodn't need to be brilliant at maths to see how many 'babies' are automatically rejected by the body before the woman even knows she is pregnant, or
shortly after.

I think we are concerned with the ones that do result in a young child.

Is this murder, or just a consequence of our evolution (or something else).
Makes you wonder though, if the 'soul' is apparant as soon as the cell is fertilised, then that's a lot of incoming for god to deal with.
Oh no, of course - they go straight to hell because they havn't been given the opportunity to love Jesus. Silly me.

It is bad enough that the world whacks the babies, claiming they go to hell as well, is monstrous.

My point here is simple - think of the victims.
Someone who is hated will have much more sympathy with their enemy than someone who is tortured, raped and murdered painfully.
But in heaven there is no such distinction.

You know, I doubt many of that sort will get saved. Even the so called good men seem to be a problem.

And that absolutely appalls me.
To hate is not to murder, otherwise there would have been many more Jews stoned to death under Moses' leadership.
my heart is an
organ that pumps blood around my body in response to electrical stimulation.
Or os this devil science because it contradicts the bible as well?
Abraham found it useful to complain to god, so maybe if I am wrong i will give it a go.

Your PO pumper is not what the bible refers to as the heart, far as I know. Therefore your PO science is moot.

So they are all murderers for having liberal abortion laws?

Yes, in my opinion.

I note that you again dodged the question and attempted to misdirect me with a curve-ball, you should have been a polititan.
The question I am still waiting to be answered is why is there a greater crime rate in Christian-dominated America compared to secular Sweden.

Because Sweden legalized it's crimes, for one thing! And the US is a pagan nation, for another. One would not expect Christian behavior from the masses there, at all.

Not so long ago in britain we used to need have two GP's signatures to perform an aborion, but I think now it only requires one.
The reasons for this are quite clear, to allow for a medical procedure to be carried out in a safe environment.
Logic dictates that, as the procedure is going to be done anyway (whether the law allows it or not) then steps should be taken to allow an abortion to be
carried out in a safe and clean environment to protect the lives of those who choose to have it done.

So, if a serial killer is going to kill anyhow, I guess they should give him a grant? Maybe supply the knife, or gun? If a crook is going to steal anyhow, I guess they may as well not bother locking the door, or vault? If a teacher is going to molest, I suppose they should provide a special room for him?? Some logic.

And that makes perfect sense to me.
This is not a big issue for me; no-one has aborted one of my potential children (to the best of my knowledge) but I sympathise with those who wish to have it
done.

Great, ..so? Some sympathize with Hitler.

Personally I believe the decision lies with the mother and the best way for her to make the decision is to be well informed and not have to worry about
dying from blood poisoning in a dirty back-street illegal clinic.

My sympathies lie with the child. Sorry. If a murderer goes partially deaf from shooting so many people, I should be concerned more than with their problem?

Lest we forget, it is quite possible to induce miscarriage through a dangerous mix of alcohol and medicines readily available over the counter (and some not
so readily available) - but is this murder as well?

Well, if done knowingly, it certainly isn't good parenting.

Leading a good life is a moral aim in my opinion, and one that many people strive for.
Thankfully, many of us don't need a big-brother threat to keep us on the straight and narrow, we are capable of being nice without threats of eternal
damnation.

I can see that. My, man is so good these days.

Wow, i gotta see your 'puter - my hard drive only stores things.
I have to rely on a seperate device to process stuff, its called a.......... processor.
I think we are merely more than the sum of our parts.

Well, our brain does seem to be able to process as well.

I'm not entirely sure of the first prophesy of Jesus' arrival in the OT, can you provide a reference for me please?

Here are a few.
"27- No bones broken: Psalm 34:20.... John 19:32-36. - Ps 34:20 He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (Ex 12:46)
- Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

28- His side pierced: Zechariah 12:10.... John 19:34. - Zec.12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
- Jn 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. ​

29- Deserted by God: Psalm 22:1.... Matthew 27:46."
http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm

Evolution is not anti-god, Darwin's theory (and Wallaces, for that matter) and all subsequent modifications do not comment on god or the bible.

Yes, they sure do, in leaving God out of creation, and cooking up the pond nonsense.

Disease:
an impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Evolution does not fit the criteria of a disease. If it did, then you might have a point.
But you knew exactly what I meant, I was refering to the germ theory of disease.
Homeopathy also claims to heal alcoholics/drug addicts and allergies, but not diabetes or amputation - do you think there is a reason for this?
While I am pleased you have stayed cold-free, I'm sure that your use of prayer was incidental rather than causitive.

Evolution, in the form of the pond or thermal vent, first life form fable
is a disease of the mind, and body politic of man.

The insult still stands - unless you can show me some evidence that the bible or prayer can have a measurable effect on a contagious germ-based infection or
hereditary disease, then you are telling porkies. For bonus points, you could show how prayer helps amputated limbs grow back - but note there are no false
legs or prosthetic arms at Lourdes......

Easy, the arm just grows back, or leg. Apparently, this sort of miracle has not been common since the days of the early church. There was no Lourdes, then.

Not wanted, merely allowed. To say wanting is to imply that she inflicted it, and as we all know good Christians do not induce pain in others.

I never met a good Christian yet. Doubt I ever will in this life. No wonder they needed to get saved.

Funny how I suggest a book, and you sneer - yet hold your book up as the be-all-and-end-all.
Hitchens is a lot of things, and many peopl ecan paint a less than colourful pictue of him.

Yes, hardly an unbiased source.

But what his father did is basically irrelevant.

A son of a gun (runner), godless communist background is noteworthy, when it comes to one's commentary on a saint!

As

for eliminating the poor, it is interesting to note that many disease-ridden and economically stunted countries have run-away rates of childbirth which
excasperate the problems some what. It would appear to be a logical conclusion that control of birth rates might appear to alleviate the symptoms a little.

So, if the planet was wiped out, I guess that would really cure it?

I'm not worried about stats here, one would be enough to sour everything for me.
But I'd wager on a high number of convicted murderers trying to take out the ultimate after-life insurance.
think or hope?

In other words, you don't know what you are talking about, really. OK.

Like all of good scientific enquirey, it is not concerned with god. It neither includes nor excludes god.

It cavorts around the fishbowl, and projects fables from there to infinity, and beyond. In the fables it tells, the actual bible creation is opposed, contradicted, denied, and blasphemed.

But tossing a dice does not allow for experience, no direction of what works and what doesn't. That is why evolution belies its simplistic origins and
implies an illusion of intelligent intervention.

Gut feelings from the wicked guts of sinful man, are not the best guiding light.

Whose, the Pagans?
But if they stay muslims of Jews, they are still condemned
no matter which side they fight on. And that sucks.

Tell them that.

sO repenting sinful men are OK then?
no matter what the sin?

Yep.

But he obviously didn't tell him not to.
Robertsons'prophesies leave a lot to be desired also - so are they talking to god or themselves?

God would have told him not to. Guess he didn't listen, or ask. As for Pat, sorry, I don't know much about him.

Good for him.
There are no demons to get rid of,

No? Like you know?

and i have nothing against
any group. I try to take each individual as I find them and judge them on their own merits. It was merely an observation.

As for back peddling on comments about Islam, that is fine.

 

[NailsII]

He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. If some of the sort you refer to end up in heaven, they certainly will not be able to bother anyone.

That's not the issue.
If someone commits a henous crime such as rape or murder (in general, you understand) then I thin they should be excluded from any chance of entering eternal salvation.

My faith I am not worried about. But those that offend the little ones are engaged in a crime against humanity.

I am pleased that you are mature enough to resist such unpleasantries and not take it all so seriously.
There are many who are not so wise.....

I think we are concerned with the ones that do result in a young child.

so a miscarriage is acceptable because it occurs naturally, but any man-induced intervention is murder?
Forgive me if I seem a little blunt or aeven niave, but I have never discussed abortion openly before.

It is bad enough that the world whacks the babies, claiming they go to hell as well, is monstrous.

So, is there a get-out clause then?
All i know is that to enter heaven one must accept Jesus as you lord and saviour.
What happens if you are too young to contemplate such an act - is there a biblical reference for the death of a small child and their place in the afterlife?

You know, I doubt many of that sort will get saved. Even the so called good men seem to be a problem.

Indeed.
But it still doesn't change the rules of salvation, those who accept get saved.

Your PO pumper is not what the bible refers to as the heart, far as I know. Therefore your PO science is moot.

That is because many works of literature refer to the heart as the seat of emotion, which it clearly is not.
We may feel the pangs of love of loss in our chest, but that is not the area of the body that is effected.

Yes, in my opinion.

A little harsh, perhaps. What about thise who campaigned agaisnst these laws?

Because Sweden legalized it's crimes, for one thing! And the US is a pagan nation, for another. One would not expect Christian behavior from the masses there, at all.

And so execution by lethal injection is OK then.
What about prostitution?
Adultery isn't illegal either......

So, if a serial killer is going to kill anyhow, I guess they should give him a grant? Maybe supply the knife, or gun? If a crook is going to steal anyhow, I guess they may as well not bother locking the door, or vault? If a teacher is going to molest, I suppose they should provide a special room for him?? Some logic.

I see you have found very obvious hole in my argument.
But like I said, this issue does not effect me and I guess I have taken the easy way out by siding with the pro-choice lobby.
Maybe I should do some soul-searching, it is possible we may end up agreeing on this.

Great, ..so? Some sympathize with Hitler.

It may be difficult to continue debating an issue for which I have such little opinion.
But is it wrong to be not bothered?

My sympathies lie with the child. Sorry. If a murderer goes partially deaf from shooting so many people, I should be concerned more than with their problem?

Oh I entirely agree (in principle).
the only issue I feel that should be resolved is at what time the unborn legally becomes a sentient individual with rights.
As modern medicine can sustain a good percentage of children born around 20 weeks gestation, then clearly to abort anywhere near or even after this time is justifiably a murder.

Well, if done knowingly, it certainly isn't good parenting.

Nor is it meant to be.
I would like to point out I am in no way advocating such action!!

I can see that. My, man is so good these days.

Hardly.

Well, our brain does seem to be able to process as well.

Quite effectively it would seem.

Here are a few.
"27- No bones broken: Psalm 34:20.... John 19:32-36. - Ps 34:20 He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (Ex 12:46)
- Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
28- His side pierced: Zechariah 12:10.... John 19:34. - Zec.12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
- Jn 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
29- Deserted by God: Psalm 22:1.... Matthew 27:46."
http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm

Thank you, I will look at these in more detail at a later date.
I didn't realise there were so many prophesies in the bible.....
just one question though:
Who is Immanuel?
[BIBLE]Isaiah 7:14[/BIBLE]

Yes, they sure do, in leaving God out of creation, and cooking up the pond nonsense.

The pond nonsense, as you describe it, is based on evidence and hard facts.
Which brings up the same old question: if god had created life as genesis describes, why did he choose to make it look like he didn't?

Evolution, in the form of the pond or thermal vent, first life form fable is a disease of the mind, and body politic of man.

Evidence works in forensics and medicine, so why not with life in general?

Easy, the arm just grows back, or leg. Apparently, this sort of miracle has not been common since the days of the early church. There was no Lourdes, then.

And I suppose you have some kind of evidence to back up this claim?

I never met a good Christian yet. Doubt I ever will in this life. No wonder they needed to get saved.

You must be very hard to please.
I have met many good Christians, and many good agnostics, atheists, muslims.
Even met a nice American once.....

Yes, hardly an unbiased source.

In order to seek the truth it is often neccessary to look at both sides of the coin.
Hitchens was the Devil's Advocate, he wasn't asked to paint a nice picture (the catholic church would do that anyway, and the world's media had previously framed it).

A son of a gun (runner), godless communist background is noteworthy, when it comes to one's commentary on a saint!

Maybe it is his ability to uncover evidence that stands out more than some other questionable character traits.

So, if the planet was wiped out, I guess that would really cure it?

nOw you're being sarcastic - I'm sure you understand the point.

In other words, you don't know what you are talking about, really. OK.

I think it would be quite difficult to build up accurate stats of mass murders or all-round sinning champions who convert on their death bed.
So I didn't even try, or even hazard a guess. I still think the point is they shouldn't be able to.

It cavorts around the fishbowl, and projects fables from there to infinity, and beyond. In the fables it tells, the actual bible creation is opposed, contradicted, denied, and blasphemed.

You should have been a poet.
Maths doesn't include God, so why should physics/biology/chemistry etc?
All that shows is that if there is a god, he isn't a permanant intervener who has to keep everything in motion.
Need I remind you that before Newton's work on gravity, it was a safe assumption that God must have a hand in keeping the planets in motion.

Gut feelings from the wicked guts of sinful man, are not the best guiding light.

But the best we have sometimes.

Tell them that.

It's your story, maybe you should break it to them.

Yep.

I still don't think that can be right.

God would have told him not to. Guess he didn't listen, or ask. As for Pat, sorry, I don't know much about him.

Would a president of the USA defy God?
Given God's track record on those who disobey him (such as Lot's wife). [BIBLE]Genesis 19:26[/BIBLE]
And you're better off not knowing Pat Robertson, he' a despicable example of a human being who acts like God's chosen one in order to extort money from the vunerable, evangelical style.
But if you want to see the man himself, here's a collection of his more public moments....
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pat+robertson&search_type=

No? Like you know?

Demons, for heavens sake.
Just think about it - sounds more like a horror movie.

As for back peddling on comments about Islam, that is fine.

I have no qualms with back pedaling, as long as the right path is reached in the end.
I also have no problem with Islam and have Muslim friends. A few concerns for its radical element yes, but I have concerns about Christianity's radical factions (especially those in the whitehouse)

 

[dad]

Only faith can move mountains, but I have love in my life so do I have nothing?

Well, sounds like quite a bit to me.

PO science, refering to what exactly?
What does PO mean?

Physical Only. As in the present nature only.

Besides, science doesn't push over mountains, it merely builds them from evidence.

That involves things present, not things imagined in the past from the present imagined launching pad.

Eesop's fables? Surely you jest, sir.

Fables like Darwinian ponds, and man evolving from plants!

Why not?
It has been attempted to use brain scans to detect brain activity during telepathic encounters; it might be interesting to scan someone while praying.
Or it might not.
If I apply for a research grant, would you volunteer for me?

No. But even if you saw activity, you would need to interpret what was actually going on.

I'm pretty sure sound waves are propagated vibrations which we can pretty much feel as they stimulate touch receptors in our skin.
High pressure waves such as those from bomb detonations at close range can turn internal organs to a pulp - is this what you mean by 'pick stuff up, on the
way through?

No. Like listening to an inspired song, or talk on the radio, and picking up on the spirit.

So how are you so sure that your interpretation really is the truth, as opposed to that of say a theistic evolutionist who believes the laws of physics have
always been constant?

Far as I can tell, the reason d'etre of interpreting the bible with an old ages filter, is the perceived need to align it with science.I perceive no such need, and apparently God doesn't either, since He spoke of the flood, and Adam, and Adam's kids living so long, etc.

 

[dad]

Are you suggesting common descent in the garden of eden?

If that means that the evolving started with the created kinds, yes. If not, no. I certainly don't mean some first life form spawning plants, and bacteria, and worms, on up to Adam, or some such!!

OK, god says he would take the snakes legs away, yet we see vestigal hind legs (COMPLETE WITH HIPS) in some snakes such as pythins today.
So either god lied or its a myth.

Well, I don't recall God saying He would take any legs away. He just said the creature would now get down on the ground, in the dirt.
"upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: "

So, if some grand creature, had to change into a snake, that doesn't rule out later evolution, does it? In other words, perhaps it could have needed to crawl as it migrated outward from Eden, at some point. Then later, lost the legs. Who knows?

Just so they don't get stabbed, eh.
the beauty of servitude; that your life is not worth [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth], regardless of the mosaic laws of murder.
From what I read, the devil works with god and destroys the family and possessions of believers.
So, no longer punished by stoning, but by eternal torture instead - so which is worse?
But again, you could always repent.......

There is no hell at the moment that I heard of. That comes later. Now, apparently there is a prison. There are different levels of rewards and punishments.

Not just more than one wife, didn't Abraham have a mistress?
Isn't that adultery?

What made it adultery, the mosaic law? There was no such thing.

I didn't say it isn't a nice story, it is probably my favourite verse (after 1
Cor 13 which I chose for my wedding).

For someone choosing bible verses at their wedding, you sound a little less than sold out on it.

But it is exactly because it was not included, it was added around the 3rd or 4th century.
The nice bit is jesus making markets in the sand; obviously spelling out the sins of those around him without a word spoken and to save personal
embarresment.

The hard copy of a known story was added, that changes nothing of it's value.

Then everything would react thus, including water.
And I don't think that water molecules are effected by the spiritual.....
Yes, in the same way we can rule out the planets and stars effecting daily aspects of our personal life.
for one, they cannot confer any information and so cannot transmit a message.
I think we can you know.

Water does not seem to react to an inspired song. Why would heavenly vibes affect it?

Forgive my bluntness, I didn't mean to imply you have zero knowledge, that would obviously be incorrect.
I personally know very little of the quantum world, but I know that quantum theory does not imply that the laws of physics have ever changed, or have ever
been different since the early moments of inflation.

What some imply does not mean that they know. The behavior goes beyond known laws. For example the speed of light. Explanations of why this happens are usually revolved around assuming the laws somehow must cover it one way or the other. I disagree.

String theory on the other hand, does accept changing laws of physics, but again only at the very
beginning of time and space, certainly only a few moments in - not a few days to allow for creation and super-extended light movements to appease the night-
time gazs of the first humans.

In box changes that the string theory fantasizes about, still require a same past state. Like the big bang first imaginary moments, they say it goes beyond physics, I think. But ask them precisely in what way, and you will soon see they really have no idea what they are talking about after all!!

Simple answer - they're probably not there.

Probability is not determined by hunches.

Maybe these super-intelligent spiritual messengers are the only source of beneficial mutation, without which common descent would be unthinkable.

Well, there was no common descent, so don't blame intelligent beings for it! We came from created kinds.

Vaccinations or shoddy scientist?
And on what grounds?

On the grounds they kill people. Not all people, but some. Others are made sick, it is claimed. Basically, even if they happen to be harmless, they are a sign of trust in medicine men to me.

True, you have the right. But is it wise?
And child killers; is the parent who allows his child to skip a vaccination not guilty if the child dies from that disease?

No. Life is full of diseases, dangers, and evil things. A parent that does their best, as God leads them is not to blame for the bad things in the world.

What if he starts a mini-epidemic and kills several more?

There is a major epidemic as we speak, and everyone is going to die. Blaming someone for not trusting doctors, and drugs is a fool's game. Two can play at that. Doctors can be blamed for all that goes wrong, however well intentioned as well.

I heard a joke the other night in a Will Smith film, Persuit of Happyness (sic).
paraphrased, of course.

Yes, I heard that one. How about the man in a church in Rome, that was praying, 'God, my wife, she no good, my job, she no pay much, my house, she leaks, ...etc etc' -when a big hand appears, thumb touching pointer finger, and flicks the man away, and a voice is heard. 'Ah, shut it up your face'

Note though that Pasteur's work was based on its own imperical evidence, and not from the theories of others.
If that's all you can offer, i would be unwise to refuse it.
Just as well, or we might be fighting with lightsabers by now........
sO are you saying to me that natural selection is a myth?

Depends how far you want to fly the little concept. Hot soup is not a myth, unless one tries to stick the entire universe in it.

By holy men, it would seem.
But again, Evolution by natural selection does not comment on God, full stop (period).

Not if we accept Adam and Eve and the garden as the place where He selected.

Again, spirits, demons, devils - sounds more like a Harry bloody Potter book.....

There is a reason that sort of book is popular.

 

[dad]

That's not the issue.
If someone commits a henous crime such as rape or murder (in general, you understand) then I thin they should be excluded from any chance of entering eternal salvation.

So Abraham, who was involved in the first war, to rescue Lot, who was taken captive, is a bad guy? He likely killed some people winning the battle? How about David?

so a miscarriage is acceptable because it occurs naturally, but any man-induced intervention is murder?

If God has a natural rejection system, who are we to question it? If someone overdoes it, or otherwise causes a miscarriage, who are we to cast stones? If someone has a child hacked out of the womb, that is another matter.

So, is there a get-out clause then?
All i know is that to enter heaven one must accept Jesus as you lord and saviour.
What happens if you are too young to contemplate such an act - is there a biblical reference for the death of a small child and their place in the afterlife?

I seem to recall hearing that spoken of. I can't think of it off hand. I believe that they must reach the age of decision. That is the name of the game.

That is because many works of literature refer to the heart as the seat of emotion, which it clearly is not.
We may feel the pangs of love of loss in our chest, but that is not the area of the body that is effected.

Well, it is central enough to be used as representative of the inner man.

A little harsh, perhaps. What about thise who campaigned agaisnst these laws?

If people are opposed to wicked laws, then I think we ought to blame the ones responsible for them.

And so execution by lethal injection is OK then.

One could debate the best means of ending a killer's life.

What about prostitution?

What about it???

Adultery isn't illegal either......

No, in many countries it is not. So? What, man's wicked little laws are some measure of right and wrong???

I see you have found very obvious hole in my argument.
But like I said, this issue does not effect me and I guess I have taken the easy way out by siding with the pro-choice lobby.
Maybe I should do some soul-searching, it is possible we may end up agreeing on this.

Fair enough.

It may be difficult to continue debating an issue for which I have such little opinion.
But is it wrong to be not bothered?

I am not the judge of right and wrong. Being past feeling, however, might not be a great sign.

Oh I entirely agree (in principle).
the only issue I feel that should be resolved is at what time the unborn legally becomes a sentient individual with rights.
As modern medicine can sustain a good percentage of children born around 20 weeks gestation, then clearly to abort anywhere near or even after this time is justifiably a murder.

The measure of a child's life is not at what point modern pagans can sustain the child, without the help of the mother.

Thank you, I will look at these in more detail at a later date.
I didn't realise there were so many prophesies in the bible.....
just one question though:
Who is Immanuel?
[bible]Isaiah 7:14[/bible]

I looked it up and found this.
"[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Definition[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] Immanuel = "God with us" or "with us is God" [/FONT]

1. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]
   [*] symbolic and prophetic name of the Messiah, the Christ, prophesying that He would be born of a virgin and would be 'God with us'[/FONT]

"
http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=06005

The pond nonsense, as you describe it, is based on evidence and hard facts.

Name them. I do not believe you. Not at all.

Which brings up the same old question: if god had created life as genesis describes, why did he choose to make it look like he didn't?

You might as well ask why He made the earth look dark to a blind man. I can say, it doesn't look that way to me at all.

Evidence works in forensics and medicine, so why not with life in general?

It works fine, and you do not have any for the pond. So??

And I suppose you have some kind of evidence to back up this claim?

Indirect. The multitudes of sick and lame were brought to Jesus, and He healed them ALL! Are you seriously suggesting that there were none, in any of the thousands and ten thousands brought to Him, that lost a limb?? Lepers were healed, and I think you know that some of them might be missing a limb?
" "He hides his son and scolds doctors for spreading rumours. They are afraid that if they admit it, the whole family will be affected because the entire village will cut them off. Now, the son has lost one arm and one leg," Yang said."
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=117&art_id=qw1158139440409B243

You must be very hard to please.
I have met many good Christians, and many good agnostics, atheists, muslims.
Even met a nice American once.....

Nice doesn't mean good.

In order to seek the truth it is often neccessary to look at both sides of the coin.
Hitchens was the Devil's Advocate, he wasn't asked to paint a nice picture (the catholic church would do that anyway, and the world's media had previously framed it).

Maybe it is his ability to uncover evidence that stands out more than some other questionable character traits.

Maybe he has no relation to the truth, and doesn't much care? Maybe his book is not evidence, but vague insinuations, accusations, associations, machinations, instigations, allegations, lamentations, and fabrications?

nOw you're being sarcastic - I'm sure you understand the point.

Well, if it is a good thing to not have hundreds of people, it is a great thing to not have millions of people, and a fantastically wonderful thing to not have any people! Don't blame me, it wasn't my idea.

I think it would be quite difficult to build up accurate stats of mass murders or all-round sinning champions who convert on their death bed.
So I didn't even try, or even hazard a guess. I still think the point is they shouldn't be able to.

I hear that they are rare.

You should have been a poet.
Maths doesn't include God, so why should

Maths can't count Him out, why should you?

physics/biology/chemistry etc?
All that shows is that if there is a god, he isn't a permanant intervener who has to keep everything in motion.

If I turn my car on, I need not run all the way to where I drive, under the hood, keeping it running. God's universe is self running, unless He wants to adjust something. That includes this temporary physical universe. It was meant to operate.

Need I remind you that before Newton's work on gravity, it was a safe assumption that God must have a hand in keeping the planets in motion.

That is ridiculous. Need I remind you there were a few idiots then as well?

Would a president of the USA defy God?

Yes.

Given God's track record on those who disobey him (such as Lot's wife). [bible]Genesis 19:26[/bible]
And you're better off not knowing Pat Robertson, he' a despicable example of a human being who acts like God's chosen one in order to extort money from the vunerable, evangelical style.

Well, some people seem to want to be the Shepherd's Crook.

But if you want to see the man himself, here's a collection of his more public moments....
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pat+robertson&search_type=

Well, I googled some quotes. He does have some things somewhat right. But he seems intertwined in the US so much, it is hard to separate the Christian beliefs from the patriot beliefs.
"1) "You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war ... We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability. We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with." –Pat Robertson, calling for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez"

Personally, I recommend that Christians do not talk of some pagan murdering nation as "we".

Demons, for heavens sake.
Just think about it - sounds more like a horror movie.

Face it, this world is rife with them, and getting rifer, apparently, as we near the grand finale.

I have no qualms with back pedaling, as long as the right path is reached in the end.

OK, some people have less of a ship to steer than others, I suppose.

I also have no problem with Islam and have Muslim friends. A few concerns for its radical element yes, but I have concerns about Christianity's radical factions (especially those in the whitehouse)

I don't understand why some people are warmongers, and feel that God wants them to mass murder people. I can't find that in the bible anywhere, or in the life of Jesus, or the apostles.
I think it became apparent to me long ago, when I saw some clip of holy men blessing opposing armies. Each priest, or minister, whatever they were, saying, basically, 'God is on your side'!! Ridiculous.

 

[NailsII]

Well, sounds like quite a bit to me.

Thnk you, I will take that as a compliment.

Physical Only. As in the present nature only.

* nods *
But as that is all we have evidence for, how can there be any suggestion that something else happened with different physical laws?

That involves things present, not things imagined in the past from the present imagined launching pad.

What part of science do you consider to be imagined?

Fables like Darwinian ponds, and man evolving from plants!

But men did not evolve from plants.
I could give you a biology 101 if you so desire, but I have the feeling you wouldn't be interested....

No. But even if you saw activity, you would need to interpret what was actually going on.

Which is why I wouldn't get a research grant; I lack the neccesary qualifications to carry out such an analysis.

No. Like listening to an inspired song, or talk on the radio, and picking up on the spirit.

I often find inspiration in a large JD.

Far as I can tell, the reason d'etre of interpreting the bible with an old ages filter, is the perceived need to align it with science.I perceive no such need, and apparently God doesn't either, since He spoke of the flood, and Adam, and Adam's kids living so long, etc.

So God invented science, but failed to pass on any of its wisdom in his revelations to mankind. In fact, He positively quashed science with talk of demons, expelling those with skin diseases instead of treating them..... need I continue?

 

[Nitron]

Arguing with dad means many threads reach their centenary.

 

[Nitron]

dad,

If you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you. So far you have made three claims- a) that the supernatural exists b) that it is separated from the physical c) that it was not always that way. Provide evidence.

 

[NailsII]

If that means that the evolving started with the created kinds, yes. If not, no. I certainly don't mean some first life form spawning plants, and bacteria, and worms, on up to Adam, or some such!!

Basic fact - there are around 1,800,000 different species on this planet that we know of. As I don't think you accept that speciation can occur, then that means that there could well have been many more than that number at the time of Adam and Eve (judging by the masssive amount of fossilised evidence that has been uncovered). So, regardless of dates (because you don't accept radio-isotope dating to be accurate), is it logical to assume that Adam named them all?
[BIBLE]Genesis 2:20[/BIBLE]Matchbox calculation: at 10 seconds per species, it would have taken Adam over 200 days if he carried out this task non-stop, 24/7 (which is unlikely, as he would have obeyed the sabbath). So without allowing for rest, sleep or having to find these creatues, does this seem logical to you?

Well, I don't recall God saying He would take any legs away. He just said the creature would now get down on the ground, in the dirt.
"upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: "

Ok, so crawl on your belly it is. What about the water snake (Helicops, Liophis, Nerodia or Xenochrophis)? Or Chrysopelea, the flying snake? Non of which eat dust, I might add.

So, if some grand creature, had to change into a snake, that doesn't rule out later evolution, does it? In other words, perhaps it could have needed to crawl as it migrated outward from Eden, at some point. Then later, lost the legs. Who knows?

a good response. I am open to the possibility that modern snakes are descended from a previous reptile, but not in 6,000 years. That's not possible (unless they reproduced on a daily basis, perhaps).

I can't get over the irony though of your assertion that humans couldn't have evolved from apes, but other creatures could have evolved in less than six thousand years.....

There is no hell at the moment that I heard of. That comes later. Now, apparently there is a prison. There are different levels of rewards and punishments.

But it is still God who does all the killing, man comes a poor second best in the body count.

What made it adultery, the mosaic law? There was no such thing.

[BIBLE]Exodus 20:14[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Genesis 16:1-4[/BIBLE]
As the were not married, I'd call that adultery.

For someone choosing bible verses at their wedding, you sound a little less than sold out on it.

I was raised as a church-going Christian so I do have a little biblical knowledge.
Just because I don't agree with the existance of a god doesn't mean i will ignore the wisdom the books contain.
That would be like never reading Lord of the Rings because I don't believe in wizards or hobbits....

The hard copy of a known story was added, that changes nothing of it's value.

Words of wisdom sir, but I thin kthe reason the story was added later is because it never actually happened.

Water does not seem to react to an inspired song. Why would heavenly vibes affect it?

they don't because they don't exist.
And the burdern of proof lies with you on this one.

What some imply does not mean that they know. The behavior goes beyond known laws. For example the speed of light. Explanations of why this happens are usually revolved around assuming the laws somehow must cover it one way or the other. I disagree.

I have no qualms with the laws of physics being variable and subject to change.
But it is an extraordinary claim, and as we all know they require extraordinary evidence.....

In box changes that the string theory fantasizes about, still require a same past state. Like the big bang first imaginary moments, they say it goes beyond physics, I think. But ask them precisely in what way, and you will soon see they really have no idea what they are talking about after all!!

Pre-big bang and during early inflation the 'state' would have been completely different, as would the laws of physics. Potentially, at least.
This is obvious by use of the word 'physics' meaning to describe the physical world, if I have understood this correctly then pre-big bang there would have been no physical universe, only a point of immense energy.

Probability is not determined by hunches.

But it is a possibility you might want to consider.
While absence of evidence is shaky evidence of absence, it does nonetheless proclude the possibility.

Well, there was no common descent, so don't blame intelligent beings for it! We came from created kinds.

Which evolved into non-created kinds? If that is possible, why not common descent? If we were created, why did God choose to employ descent with modification, which gives the illusion of common descent and evolution by natural selection?

On the grounds they kill people. Not all people, but some. Others are made sick, it is claimed. Basically, even if they happen to be harmless, they are a sign of trust in medicine men to me.

I think you have been mis-informed.
vaccines very rarely kill anyone (but it may happen, it is a possibility). Failure to vaccinate 80% of the population is giving grounds for a mass of needless suffering and potentially death on a large scale.
medicine men, makes it sound like some uncivilised shaymen dancing around a fire and burning scented oils.
Trust in evidence is a better way of looking at it, dedicated imperical research, but if you have a better cure for HIV (and I did say cure, we all know there are many ways to prevent it) then please share it with us. Prayer is ineffective, although I can't for sure whether your previous assertion that you can pray for non-infection may be useful. Bu I doubt it somehow.

No. Life is full of diseases, dangers, and evil things. A parent that does their best, as God leads them is not to blame for the bad things in the world.

And refusing a proven treatment or vaccine for your child is irresponcible and down-right dangerous - and certainly not doing your best.
If my religion asked me to risk my child's life, I would simply turn my back on that religion (easy for me to say i know) but if God wants to judge me on looking after my child, then so be it. i believe Jesus preached about the virtues of looking after one's family.

There is a major epidemic as we speak, and everyone is going to die. Blaming someone for not trusting doctors, and drugs is a fool's game. Two can play at that. Doctors can be blamed for all that goes wrong, however well intentioned as well.

Of course doctors make mistakes; to err is human after all. But to ignore sound medical advice is foolhardy, especially if it puts the life of your own children at risk.
Just because death is inevitable is no reason to hasten its effects!!!

Yes, I heard that one. How about the man in a church in Rome, that was praying, 'God, my wife, she no good, my job, she no pay much, my house, she leaks, ...etc etc' -when a big hand appears, thumb touching pointer finger, and flicks the man away, and a voice is heard. 'Ah, shut it up your face'

Not got quite the same ring to it, though.
The reason I shard it was for your opinion - would you care to enlighten me?

Depends how far you want to fly the little concept. Hot soup is not a myth, unless one tries to stick the entire universe in it.

I don't understand how you can be so dismissive of the evidence.

Not if we accept Adam and Eve and the garden as the place where He selected.

What garden?
Where is it?
Missouri?

There is a reason that sort of book is popular.

because it is fun, and magic had a little inspiration for all of us.
Especially as children, magic is so cool.
It's a shame that the bubble bursts as we get older and most of us begin to trust physical observations and notice patterns in the natural world and laws (or theories in the case of gravity) which just don't seem to be breakable - until you see the magician on stage....