the changing speed of light. dad, this thread is for you

[NailsII]

So neutrons fired at Mary, and Jesus was born? Neutrons fired at Jesus, and He raised from the dead? Neutrons fired at prophesies in the bible, and they come true? Neutrons fired at Adam, and he came to life? Neutrons fired at the flood waters, and they went down? Neutrons fired at the temple in Jerusalem, and not one stone was left on another? Neutrons fired at the state of the past and future, and made them the same?? Get serious.

Neutron:

Neuron:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ron.svg/250px-Quark_structure_neutron.svg.png

 

[dad]

(images)

The human brain is able to be affected by spiritual impulses.
As you know, the neutrons are composed of quarks and leptons.
"Quarks and Leptons are the building blocks which build up matter, i.e., they are seen as the "elementary particles".

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/quark.html#c1

Quarks, such as the strange quark, and the charm quark, are subject to the fundamental forces of this present universe. Such as strong and weak forces.
"Particle decay by the strong or electromagnetic interactions preserve the strangeness quantum number. The decay process for the lambda particle must violate that rule, since there is no lighter particle which contains a strange quark - so the strange quark must be transformed to another quark in the process. That can only occur by the weak interaction, and that leads to a much longer lifetime. The decay processes show that strangeness is not conserved:"
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/quark.html#c4

Then we seem to tie in with the quantum world, which means we really get to the borders of the box! Some feel that the quantum level interactions involve time travel, past and present. If the universe was a different state in the past, and will be in the future, it is no wonder we might consider some of the results strange!

Is it any wonder that the brain involves more than natural mechanics?? Therefore, if one takes the limited, natural, physical only perspective of what science can detect of the brain, and how it works, we would tend, it seems, to think of the brain as more of a self contained hard drive, (subject only to natural input)- than a vibrant, connected, inspiration sensitive tool to run the body, and be able to connect with the spirit of man, and other spiritual input!

 

[Adivi]

The human brain is able to be affected by spiritual impulses.
As you know, the neutrons are composed of quarks and leptons.

Stop confusing neutrons and neurons. A neutron is a particle found in nuclei; it has charge 0, mass slightly more than 1 amu, and is composed of two down and one up quark. A neuron is a cell in your brain. And neutrons don't have leptons inside them; neurons, however, do (electrons are leptons).

"Quarks and Leptons are the building blocks which build up matter, i.e., they are seen as the "elementary particles".

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/quark.html#c1

Quarks, such as the strange quark, and the charm quark, are subject to the fundamental forces of this present universe. Such as strong and weak forces.
"Particle decay by the strong or electromagnetic interactions preserve the strangeness quantum number. The decay process for the lambda particle must violate that rule, since there is no lighter particle which contains a strange quark - so the strange quark must be transformed to another quark in the process. That can only occur by the weak interaction, and that leads to a much longer lifetime. The decay processes show that strangeness is not conserved:"
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/quark.html#c4

Then we seem to tie in with the quantum world, which means we really get to the borders of the box! Some feel that the quantum level interactions involve time travel, past and present. If the universe was a different state in the past, and will be in the future, it is no wonder we might consider some of the results strange!

Is it any wonder that the brain involves more than natural mechanics?? Therefore, if one takes the limited, natural, physical only perspective of what science can detect of the brain, and how it works, we would tend, it seems, to think of the brain as more of a self contained hard drive, (subject only to natural input)- than a vibrant, connected, inspiration sensitive tool to run the body, and be able to connect with the spirit of man, and other spiritual input!

If you're italicizing 'strange quark' and 'charm quark' because of the names, don't. It's just some random name; you could call them ana and kata if you wanted. Besides, what's so spiritual about quarks?

And the time-travel interpretations only involve microscopic differences less than a nanosecond (.000000001 seconds). If the universe's state is changing that rapidly, we'd detect it.



Quantum-mechanical results are weird and counterintuitive, yes, but they're not random (the wavefunctions aren't, at least; the collapse of superpositions is as far as we know pure randomness).

 

[thaumaturgy]

Quarks, such as the strange quark, and the charm quark, are subject to the fundamental forces of this present universe. Such as strong and weak forces.

Hey, let's draw all sorts of really deep and meaningful spiritual concepts from the names given to subatomic particles!

Of course, you would be lead to becoming a Buddhist that way. I'm sure you know why.

In case you don't, I'll 'splain it to you.

Murray Gell-Man, while attempting to put together a framework for the various subatomic particles realized there was an 8-fold symmetry derived from the current algebra (the mathematical framework of the quantum field theory) in the classification scheme. Gell-Man, a polymath by nature, found it to be an interesting concept and grabbed an idea he'd heard about in Buddhism called the Noble 8-Fold Path and stuck the name "8-Fold Way" onto this. I don't believe he thought it was in any way spiritual, just a parallel concept. Kind of a fun bit of mental word-play. But I've only read one biography of Gell-Man and it was years ago, so I'm kinda rusty on this.

Of course Gell-Man named the quarks quarks after a line in James Joyce's Finnegans Wake. (SOURCE)

So, if this is all so very meaningful, I suspect you'll quickly become a Buddhist with an obsession for early-mid 20th century experimental literature.

Then we seem to tie in with the quantum world, which means we really get to the borders of the box!

I will hazard a guess that you are incapable of understanding the mathematics underlying quantum mechanics. It isn't easy stuff and you appear to have difficulty with simple algebra (which you have lumped into the condescending status of "baby math"), so you probably shouldn't be talking too bravely about the edges of a box you don't even understand the size of.

But remember, some of the strangest aspects of quantum come in when you realize that what happens at a quantum level doesn't always translate up to the macro world. In the quantum level we have subatomic particles that can do things ensembles of subatomic particles (like people and things) don't normally do on the length and time scales we exist in.

Some feel that the quantum level interactions involve time travel, past and present.

Here's some handy Google terms, so the next time you bring this up you'll have some random snippets you can highlight various words form:

Richard Feynman
Feynman Diagram
QED
Quantum electrodynamics

If the universe was a different state in the past, and will be in the future, it is no wonder we might consider some of the results strange!

Shouldn't you have at least a nodding acquaintance with what we do know before you go off in hopes of finding even stranger things?

Is it any wonder that the brain involves more than natural mechanics??

It does? How do you know?

able to connect with the spirit of man, and other spiritual input!

That must make you comfortable, because it doesn't require anyone to technically "understand" anything. You can just chalk it all up to the "Spiritual". It's a nice big black box to hide your stunning lack of curiosity in.

 

[NailsII]

The spiritual is not known, which is why it is unmeasurable. What you may describe as spiritual may be due to a pattern of neurons firing that you cannot pin down into conventional language - i am not a psychologist, so I can only speculate.

So neutrons fired at Mary, and Jesus was born? Neutrons fired at Jesus, and He raised from the dead? Neutrons fired at prophesies in the bible, and they come true? Neutrons fired at Adam, and he came to life? Neutrons fired at the flood waters, and they went down? Neutrons fired at the temple in Jerusalem, and not one stone was left on another? Neutrons fired at the state of the past and future, and made them the same?? Get serious.

The human brain is able to be affected by spiritual impulses.
* snip *

So this is how we arrived here, I can only assume someone misread my post and googled neutron instead of neuron.

But it does raise one interesting point, if 'spiritual impulses' (whatever that means) are measurable (which is what you have indicated, if you have evidence that it really does effect the brain then it must be measurable) and so the spiritual is not supernatural and not a mystery after all.

 

[dad]

So this is how we arrived here, I can only assume someone misread my post and googled neutron instead of neuron.

But it does raise one interesting point, if 'spiritual impulses' (whatever that means) are measurable (which is what you have indicated, if you have evidence that it really does effect the brain then it must be measurable) and so the spiritual is not supernatural and not a mystery after all.

Right you are, the brain uses nuerons. They also are sensitive to the spiritual, of course.

"Neurons communicate via chemical and electrical synapses," -wiki

So, we basically still get down to the elementary elements than make up cells!
Even though you are right, I did get the words mixed up, but it boils down to the same thing.


"QUARK: SIMPLY ENERGY. CAN’T BE SEEN UNDER ANY MICROSCOPE. – quarks are packets of energy with masslike quality. They are not only too small to be seen under a microscope, they are thought not exist in nature except as pairs or triplets

ATOM: MADE FROM QUARKS. HAS PROTONS, NEUTRONS. THESE MAKE MOLECULES. – three quarks make a proton, and three are needed to make a neutron. An atom will have one or more protons and zero or more neutrons. But it will also have an electron for each proton, and this is not made from quarks. So, an atom is made from quarks, but not just quarks

MOLECULE: THESE ARE MADE FROM ATOMS. EXAMPLES OF MOLECULES ARE: HYDROGEN, OXYGEN.

ORGANELLE: MADE OF MOLECULES AND ARE THE SMALL ORGANS IN EACH CELL. EXAMPLES IN AMINAL CELLS ARE: NEUCLEUS, RIBOSOME, LYSOSOME.

CELL: MADE UP OF ORGANELLES. CELLS ARE THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF LIFE. – Cells are compsed of organelles, but more: the are also made of cytoplasm containing those organelles and wrapped in a cell membrane"

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/answers2/frontend.php/question?qid=20071206062513AAE81Bk


--About the point that the spiritual affecting the physical makes it no mystery, there is a catch. We can't detect the spiritual, and all we see are the receptors, so to speak. Since we are made to be in this physical world, and it for us, however, receptors of things, or impulses spiritual, also have other purposes.

 

[dad]

Hey, let's draw all sorts of really deep and meaningful spiritual concepts from the names given to subatomic particles!

OK, beats the limited meanings they can come up with.

Of course, you would be lead to becoming a Buddhist that way. I'm sure you know why.

No, but I have a feeling I am about to find out.

In case you don't, I'll 'splain it to you.

Murray Gell-Man, while attempting to put together a framework for the various subatomic particles realized there was an 8-fold symmetry derived from the current algebra (the mathematical framework of the quantum field theory) in the classification scheme. Gell-Man, a polymath by nature, found it to be an interesting concept and grabbed an idea he'd heard about in Buddhism called the Noble 8-Fold Path and stuck the name "8-Fold Way" onto this. I don't believe he thought it was in any way spiritual, just a parallel concept. Kind of a fun bit of mental word-play. But I've only read one biography of Gell-Man and it was years ago, so I'm kinda rusty on this.

Of course Gell-Man named the quarks quarks after a line in James Joyce's Finnegans Wake. (SOURCE)

Well, some spiritual world concepts might have a counterpart here. But since he would have no idea, it really doesn't gel here. But I guess some have some humor in naming things.
Like this guy who discovered a fossil.
"But the real prize of the Mt. Stephen assemblage is an arthropod Collins has dubbed "Santa Claws" because of the five pairs of claws attached to its head (and because Collins thought of the fossil as a gift). Santa Claws has two unusual flaps on its side and a beaverlike tail, both of which Collins suspects helped to steer the fearsome creature"
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/New+creatures+from+Cambrian-a04023816

So, if this is all so very meaningful, I suspect you'll quickly become a Buddhist with an obsession for early-mid 20th century experimental literature.

No thanks. No more than I'll start hunting scorpion like critters with beaver tails. In fact, I hope God renames most of that nonsense, including the constellations, some of them. -Mountain ranges, oceans, seas, etc etc.

I will hazard a guess that you are incapable of understanding the mathematics underlying quantum mechanics.

I will hazard a guess that you are incapable of understanding that mathematics is not the main factor in the strangeness of some things underlying quantum mechanics.

It isn't easy stuff and you appear to have difficulty with simple algebra (which you have lumped into the condescending status of "baby math"), so you probably shouldn't be talking too bravely about the edges of a box you don't even understand the size of.

The box limits are the limits of this physical temporary universe, and it's laws. No need to talk bravely of that. Any more than one would talk bravely of Mickey Mouse.

But remember, some of the strangest aspects of quantum come in when you realize that what happens at a quantum level doesn't always translate up to the macro world.

That was my point, and the reason given was that the past and future states are not our state. Not sure how you think this is some sort of news.

In the quantum level we have subatomic particles that can do things ensembles of subatomic particles (like people and things) don't normally do on the length and time scales we exist in.

Duh, ya think??

Here's some handy Google terms, so the next time you bring this up you'll have some random snippets you can highlight various words form:

Richard Feynman
Feynman Diagram
QED
Quantum electrodynamics

Thanks, here is a few for you, I can be nice as well.
Mickey Mouse
Different state future and past
Unknown
Not explained by physics laws

Shouldn't you have at least a nodding acquaintance with what we do know before you go off in hopes of finding even stranger things?

You can't, assuming that the present is the same state as the past and future, which may be the reason it is strange -to you!! Not to me.

It does? How do you know?

Because the bible was inspired, so it had to bypass brains of mere men to some degree.

That must make you comfortable, because it doesn't require anyone to technically "understand" anything. You can just chalk it all up to the "Spiritual". It's a nice big black box to hide your stunning lack of curiosity in.

I am the one that is curious about the spiritual, rather than ignorantly denying it. Without it, there will be many things you cannot understand. Just because it marginalizes knowledge of this PO state, does not mean it is not something that can't be understood somewhat. It just means that understanding more than the limited temporary physical only world is part of any deeper understanding.

 

[AV1611VET]

Hey, dad! How's it going?

 

[dad]

Hey, dad! How's it going?

Hi, all's well on the western front, thanks.
Edit: Gosh, thanks for the reps, just noticed.

 

[NailsII]

Right you are, the brain uses nuerons. They also are sensitive to the spiritual, of course.

* snip *

--About the point that the spiritual affecting the physical makes it no mystery, there is a catch. We can't detect the spiritual, and all we see are the receptors, so to speak. Since we are made to be in this physical world, and it for us, however, receptors of things, or impulses spiritual, also have other purposes.

So the brain is susceptable to spiritual impulses?
Do you have any evidence for this?
Anything that can stimulate the brain can be measured, as it has physical effects it cannot be supernatural.
Are you saying that we need 'spiritual receptors' to able to detect the presence of god?
Or are you just contradicting yourself (again)?
Apart from the stupid notion that as neurons are made of molecules/atoms/sub-atomic particles then they behave like them, is there anything meaningful in this post?

Hey, dad! How's it going?

Not very well AV, he's tripping over everything at the moment.
Maybe you should lend a hand, or even throw a towel in for him.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not very well AV, he's tripping over everything at the moment.
Maybe you should lend a hand, or even throw a towel in for him.

Oh, I'm sure dad can handle it just fine. I'm sure you wouldn't want dad and me as tag-team partners ---

 

[NailsII]

Oh, I'm sure dad can handle it just fine. I'm sure you wouldn't want dad and me as tag-team partners ---

I don't see why not. The more the merrier in my opinion....

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't see why not. The more the merrier in my opinion....

To be truthful, I'm not sure we could handle all the constant begging for evidence for things spiritual.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Oh, I'm sure dad can handle it just fine. I'm sure you wouldn't want dad and me as tag-team partners ---

"We want to pump...you up!"
"Jah"

 

[thaumaturgy]

I will hazard a guess that you are incapable of understanding that mathematics is not the main factor in the strangeness of some things underlying quantum mechanics.

Because the bible was inspired, so it had to bypass brains of mere men to some degree.

And you have a brain capable of understanding such enormous concepts? Yet you can't handle simple algebra. Funny. You talk so big, yet I think this applies:

[BIBLE]Matthew 7:16[/BIBLE]

The fruit you bring forth (calling math you don't understand "baby math", calling geology you don't comprehend "doo doo") says ever so much about the nature of the tree. And how deep the roots go.

Without it, there will be many things you cannot understand.

Well, the spiritual doesn't seem to help you understand much around here.

Just because it marginalizes knowledge of this PO state

Do not be confused: YOU are the one who marginalizes knowledge of the "PO state". That's likely because you are incapable of understanding even the simple stuff here. So you hide your ignorance behind a big blustery wall of condescension.

And we see the fruit and know the tree.

 

[dad]

So the brain is susceptable to spiritual impulses?
Do you have any evidence for this?

Evidence spans history. Inspiration from the spiritual is long established in the records. In the arts, sciences, and every area of man's endeavors. Some claim inspiration from beyond the natural. Ancient cultures are rife with gods, and spirits. Presidents have claimed inspiration, generals, you name it. Good and bad. The natural mind of man is dead to the things of the spirit, but the mind can be brought to life somewhat if man is born of the spirit.

Anything that can stimulate the brain can be measured, as it has physical effects it cannot be supernatural.
Are you saying that we need 'spiritual receptors' to able to detect the presence of god?

We were built with what we need, but if we want stuff to work right, we need to use it right.

Or are you just contradicting yourself (again)?
Apart from the stupid notion that as neurons are made of molecules/atoms/sub-atomic particles then they behave like them, is there anything meaningful in this post?

We can break down cells, brain cells, to the more elementary parts. Along the line, we get into neutrons. As we talked about connecting the physical to the spiritual, yes, the subatomic and quantum levels become very meaningful.

 

[dad]

"We want to pump...you up!"
"Jah"

No need, thanks. I prefer to trust someone getting signals from the right spirit.

 

[dad]

And you have a brain capable of understanding such enormous concepts? ..

I understand it seems enormous to you. As I said, the math isn't the reason for quantum strangeness. Neither is algebra the thing that applies to heavenly light speed, or loaves and fishes.

The fruit you bring forth (calling math you don't understand "baby math", calling geology you don't comprehend "doo doo") says ever so much about the nature of the tree. And how deep the roots go.

Thanks, it is a pretty shallow tree, as I pointed out. Your math, and rock reading skills are marginalized.

Well, the spiritual doesn't seem to help you understand much around here.

Maybe not the things you preach, but they don't matter, as concerns the core issues.

Do not be confused: YOU are the one who marginalizes knowledge of the "PO state".

Thank you! I try. It deserves to be put in it's little place, rather than worshiped, as some have done.

That's likely because you are incapable of understanding even the simple stuff here. So you hide your ignorance behind a big blustery wall of condescension.

Always easy to say, but the proof is in the pudding, and you have no case. Your perceived self cleverness is what keeps you in the dark, and at the dead end of natural only so called science. I have no intention of trying to get you out of there, since you desire to be there. There are some who never ran away from God, to end up in that dead end, and they have some hope of seeing that there is more than you can offer.

And we see the fruit and know the tree.

You can see the PO, and know the PO. You seem to think it is evil to expose the PO as not all that there is. No. A good tree gets it's sap from God, doesn't try to make a sap out of God.

 

[thaumaturgy]

...

 

[NailsII]

To be truthful, I'm not sure we could handle all the constant begging for evidence for things spiritual.

Fair point, but I'm sure you can see where we're coming from and why we ask for it.
And as Dad has suggested that the brain is susceptable to spiritual forces, this effect should be measurable and in effect not supernatural.
But my guess is that spiritual encounters are entirely brain-centred; it is merely a feeling (possibly of great love or respect, learned during prayer as a family and earning the adoration of our parents while carrying out these religious rituals). As such they are not external and do not effect the brain, they eminate from the brain and cause effects in our thinking and state of mind.

And you have a brain capable of understanding such enormous concepts? Yet you can't handle simple algebra. Funny. You talk so big, yet I think this applies:

To be fair, I consider myself an educated man but maths and physics tend to leave me left behind big time.
So I don't blame dad for not getting the maths picture; it is just unfortunate that he tried to fudge his way through it nstead of admitting his limitations.
We all have them, after all.
This is basically all I know about quantum physics, as depicted on a cereal packet:
Quantum Physics warnings
WARNING: This product warps space and time in its vicinity.
WARNING: This product attracts every other piece if matter in the universe, including the products of other manufacturers, with a force proportional to the product of the masses and inversely proportional to the distance between them.
CAUTION: The mass of this product contains the energy equivalent of 85 million tons of TNT per net ounce of weight.
HANDLE WITH EXTREME CARE: This product contains minute electrically charged particles moving at velocities in excess of five hundred million miles per hour.
CONSUMER NOTICE: Because of the ``uncertainty principle,'' it is impossible for the consumer to find out at the same time both precisely where this product is and how fast it is moving.
ADVISORY: There is an extremely small but nonzero chance that, through a process known as ``tunneling,'' this product may spontaneously disappear from its present location and reappear at any random place in the universe, including your neighbor's domicile. The manufacturer will not be responsible for any damages or inconveniences that may result.
READ THIS BEFORE OPENING PACKAGE: According to certain suggested versions of the Grand Unified Theory, the primary particles constituting this product may decay to nothingness within the next four hundred million years.
THIS IS A 100% MATTER PRODUCT: In the unlikely event that this merchandise should contact antimatter in any form, a catastrophic explosion will result.
PUBLIC NOTICE AS REQUIRED BY LAW: Any use of this product, in any manner whatsoever, will increase the amount of disorder in the universe. Although no liability is implied herein, the consumer is warned that this process will ultimately lead to the heat death of the universe.
NOTE: The most fundamental particles in this product are held together by a ``gluing'' force about which little is currently known and whose adhesive power can therefore not be permanently guaranteed.
ATTENTION: Despite any other listing of product contents found herein, the consumer is advised that, in actuality, this product consists of 99.9999999999% empty space.
NEW GRAND UNIFIED THEORY DISCLAIMER: The manufacturer may technically be entitled to claim that this product is ten-dimensional. However, the consumer is reminded that this confers no legal rights above and beyond those applicable to three-dimensional objects, since the seven new dimensions are ``rolled up'' into such a small ``area'' that they cannot be detected.
PLEASE NOTE: Some quantum physics theories suggest that when the consumer is not directly observing this product, it may cease to exist or will exist only in a vague and undetermined state.
COMPONENT EQUIVALENCY NOTICE: The subatomic particles (electrons, protons, etc.) comprising this product are exactly the same in every measurable respect as those used in the products of other manufacturers, and no claim to the contrary may legitimately be expressed or implied.
HEALTH WARNING: Care should be taken when lifting this product, since its mass, and thus its weight, is dependent on its velocity relative to the user.
IMPORTANT NOTICE TO PURCHASERS: The entire physical universe, including this product, may one day collapse back into an infinitesimally small space. Should another universe subsequently re-emerge, the existence of this product in that universe cannot be guaranteed.

Evidence spans history. Inspiration from the spiritual is long established in the records. In the arts, sciences, and every area of man's endeavors. Some claim inspiration from beyond the natural. Ancient cultures are rife with gods, and spirits. Presidents have claimed inspiration, generals, you name it. Good and bad. The natural mind of man is dead to the things of the spirit, but the mind can be brought to life somewhat if man is born of the spirit.

Again, you complicate the picture by invoking the supernatural. Humans have a history of warfare, conquest and inflicting suffering - this is nothing to do with god, it is in our nature. Andjust because we have a history of it doesn't make it good, just or even right.
Ancient cultures are rife with gods that fill gaps, I hope you wouldn't push your own deity into said box - because it is getting smaller by the day.

We were built with what we need, but if we want stuff to work right, we need to use it right.

Now i actually agree with this sentance.
Our bodies would work much better if we looked after them, spent more time exercising than eating KFC would be a good start.
However, I find it strange that such a conclusion fits in better with evolutionary theory than with creationism.
Because if we were created we were created badly, if we evolved then we evolved with limitaions.

We can break down cells, brain cells, to the more elementary parts. Along the line, we get into neutrons. As we talked about connecting the physical to the spiritual, yes, the subatomic and quantum levels become very meaningful.

Are you suggesting that 'free' neutrons hae an affinity for those bound up in atoms, and specifically those in biological systems?