Homosexuality is Slavery!

[Phinehas2]

Dear catlover

There were Eunuchs in Jesus' day---you call that natural?

Yes there were eunuchs then as Jesus NT teaching shows, but to those born that way or made that way by men, they exist, some however choose celibacy for the Kingdom.
My point however is not about our opinions but that according to Jesus teaching, a celibate lifestyle isn’t disordered or unnatural as was claimed. It can be chosen for the Kingdom.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear HaloHope,

My point was if celibacy is so fantastically great ..

If we read Jesus NT teaching in John 8 and 1 Corinthians 7 we see the choice for believers is to marry or devote oneself completely to the work of the Kingdom.

NB. Celibate Christians don’t all have to become monks and nuns do they? What about the homosexual believers, why are you just asking about heterosexual believers?

 

[HaloHope]

Dear HaloHope,
If we read Jesus NT teaching in John 8 and 1 Corinthians 7 we see the choice for believers is to marry or devote oneself completely to the work of the Kingdom.

NB. Celibate Christians don’t all have to become monks and nuns do they? What about the homosexual believers, why are you just asking about heterosexual believers?

My point was hundreds of people against homosexuals haveing relationships have hetrosexual relationships of their own. They have a spouse family etc.. . How would they feel if someone was demanding that they give up their relationships and sever family ties and become celibate. I'm sure a great many hetrosexuals would be greatly upset if they felt compelled to leave their spouse or even had people telling them to all the time. The same emotions are involved in homosexual relationships, so I was illustrating what a thoughtless approach it was to preach in that way.

Quite frankly there no reason in a million years I'd end a three year relationship just because of what I percieve as some poorly put together evidence against homosexuality in the Bible. It dosen't mean I don't get sick of hearing that I should however, especially when the side who seem concerned for a soul seem to assume gay people dont have any human emotions when it comes to loving their partners.

So as I said before, everyone against homosexuality leave your wife/husband etc.. if its so easy. Then we'll talk. Both you know and I know that isn't going to happen.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear HaloHope,

My point was hundreds of people against homosexuals haveing relationships

Ok let me stop you there. That’s fine you are entitled to your opinion, I was referring to Jesus NT teaching and what the Bible as the word of God says.

How would they feel if someone was demanding that they give up their relationships and sever family ties and become celibate.

Well again I would point you to Jesus Christ’s NT teaching
Luke 14:26 “"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.”
You don’t fancy being a disciple then? But in fairness Jesus NT teaching in 1 Cor 7 deals with the choice of celibacy or marriage in the first place, not the choice once married.

I'm sure a great many hetrosexuals would be greatly upset if they felt compelled to leave their spouse or even had people telling them to all the time. The same emotions are involved in homosexual relationships, so I was illustrating what a thoughtless approach it was to preach in that way.

Ok well celibacy is the same for heterosexuals as homosexuals, and I am referring to Jesus Christ’s teaching, obviously anyone who isnt a disciple of Christ first needs to accept Jesus Christ as Lord, I would also think telling non-Christians this could well be thoughtless.

Quite frankly there no reason in a million years I'd end a three year relationship just because of what I percieve as some poorly put together evidence against homosexuality in the Bible. It dosen't mean I don't get sick of hearing that I should however, especially when the side who seem concerned for a soul seem to assume gay people dont have any human emotions when it comes to loving their partners.

Again I am referring to Jesus Christ’s NT teaching not what people think about it.

 

[catlover]

Dear catlover

Yes there were eunuchs then as Jesus NT teaching shows, but to those born that way or made that way by men, they exist, some however choose celibacy for the Kingdom.
My point however is not about our opinions but that according to Jesus teaching, a celibate lifestyle isn’t disordered or unnatural as was claimed. It can be chosen for the Kingdom.

It's what you believe what Jesus teaches..again your opinion.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear catlover,
no my opinion is the big red bus went up the hill, but thats not what the Bible says, and it was the Bible I was citing Matthew 19 and 1 Cor 7

 

[AureateDawn]

Well yes, father Seraphim Rose was a priest. Priests choose to be celibate as part of their vocation. But as far as him being Gay, there was much debate surrounding it. His family denies it and father seraphim never quoted that he was. So it comes down to heresay. But i don't think it would be a great idea to join a Monastery or become a priest based soley on the fact that you are running from Homosexual tendencies. Thats has often met with disaster.

Roman Catholic priests are celibate. Orthodox priests can marry. Blessed Fr. Seraphim Rose was leading the gay lifestyle and he had a partner he loved very much.

Sin is a sign of slavery.

But some of us disagree with you that homosexuality is sin so...

Celibacy is a gift. For God to create people homosexual and force them to use their gift goes against how the Bible explains gifts. Gifts are by God, however there is no punishment if you choose not to use them (though if there is, it isn't in the Bible). Though God does hope for you to use them but sometimes our will contradicts. I am celibate. Whether or not that is my gift or my choice I don't know yet. But God would never say "well you either have to be this or you're sinning". That would break free will which interferes with how we were designed to live. If God could just force us to do things, we wouldn't need to worry about salvation.

Also, this sentence contradicts itself. So it is wrong and then it ISN'T? Huh?:

Being gay in and of itself is not wrong. The bible makes it pretty clear that it's wrong.

Yes, celibacy is a gift, and it is for some and not for all. However, if leading a homosexual lifestyle is wrong, then there has to be some other alternative... celibacy in society, celibacy in a monastery, or becoming straight. I sort of laugh at the third option... it's never happened to me in 4 years. Jesus has never changed me. But I can stay celibate and try to live the life Christ calls me to.

And yes, I'm not the best and wording things. It's not a contradiction, I just wrote it funny. Being gay in and of itself is not wrong, but acting upon SSA is, and the Bible makes that fairly clear.

Do you also think it more appropriate to suggest that black people should not say “I am black” rather they should say “I struggle with non-white skin tones”?


You might do well to read through the threads here. Your “common” scriptures have been confronted many times


Gays and lesbians certainly are bale to date and marry. There are millions of happy same sex couples/families


Or it means rejecting the message of prejudice some Christians send and embracing honesty and happiness and founding a family with the person they love


Its interesting you claim a life of denial and self hatred is a life of “freedom”

The color of skin is not wrong or sinful. That's a terrible comparison.

Yes, I have read through the threads. Some people interpret the Scriptures wrong. *shrug* It happens. I don't expect to change anyone's mind.

Sure people with SSA are able to date and marry. It's still wrong.

I never said "denial". A "homosexual" person must accept it, but then try and fight the passions. Denying that one struggles with SSA doesn't get one anywhere. I also never mentioned self hatred...

Nonsense, love is never of the devil.

Not at all, my sexuality is part of who I am. Not the be all and end all of course, but part of me. Obviously now I'm into my third year with the same woman, my relationship which is a "gay" relationship is a big part of my life too.

I dont struggle with SSA either, in fact Im extremely happy in my attraction to other women. Its good.


None of those scriptures are at all clear, in fact they are disturbingly vague.


Nonsense, there is very little evidence that homosexuality is a sin. I am extremely happy in my relationship with God and my romantic relationship with my girlfreind. In fact she was the one that led me to God in the first place as when we first met I was non-Christian. A loving God would never let homosexuals have these natural urges if we werent supposed to act on them, I believe sexuality and sex (assuming they are in consensual commited relationships) are gifts to be celebrated from God.


I love the way people seem to always assume all homosexuals are male in their posts. I have no desire to be a nun, nor give up my wonderful loving relationship to be alone and celibate. God and I are on great terms thank you, and fortunately no amount of nonsense spouted on forums is going to rob me of that.

I don't expect to change your mind.

And I don't assume all homosexuals are males...

My point was if celibacy is so fantastically great and all then why don't all the hetrosexuals here abandon their relationships and become monks and nuns! Isn't that a fantastic idea, i'd imagine all of you would be leaping for joy at the prospect no?

Because it is not wrong for a man and a woman to marry and live their life for God.



I'm not too good and wording things or at debating, btw. So all of the stuff that makes so much sense to me, when I word it.... well, it might not make any sense at all!

And thanks Phinehas2 for the help!

Oh, and, again, I struggle with homosexual passions and SSA as well. For four years. I want nothing more than to date and fall in love and have a family. But it's not what God wants me to do. I have to struggle against what I want, and what God wants.

 

[Andrew21091]

Well yes, father Seraphim Rose was a priest. Priests choose to be celibate as part of their vocation.

Orthodox priests can marry. Fr. Seraphim was a monk.

But i don't think it would be a great idea to join a Monastery or become a priest based soley on the fact that you are running from Homosexual tendencies. Thats has often met with disaster.

You couldn't be more right. One shouldn't just go to a monastery to get away from your problems in the world; it should be approached with humility and the focus on serving God, not yourself. You have to really ask yourself Justin, why you want to be a monk. Is it to run away from your problems in the world? Or is it to be obedient to God through intense prayer, fasting, and obedience?

 

[seashale76]

I have no comments to make other than it gets rather tiring seeing people poo-pooing celibacy in their arguments for why they themselves don't feel the need to remain celibate. It's as if people are looking down on those who choose to remain celibate. One can remain celibate and not be a monastic. There is absolutely nothing wrong with remaining celibate. Everyone is called to celibacy at some point in their lives. Nothing in the sexuality arena is foisted on people. Life is all about choices here.

 

[Nichole]

Becoming a monk or nun is a beautiful way of living a devoted life to God. What many Protestants don't understand is that many Orthodox and Catholic Christians are called to serve God as a monk or nun in a celibant lifestyle. What's wrong with obeying God's call? Even if the person is homosexual, why does it have to infer they are running from this sinful state in doing so? I don't think that is what Justin was imposing here.



BMW

 

[OllieFranz]

I have no comments to make other than it gets rather tiring seeing people poo-pooing celibacy in their arguments for why they themselves don't feel the need to remain celibate. It's as if people are looking down on those who choose to remain celibate. One can remain celibate and not be a monastic. There is absolutely nothing wrong with remaining celibate. Everyone is called to celibacy at some point in their lives. Nothing in the sexuality arena is foisted on people. Life is all about choices here.
(Emphasis mine)

Yes, before marriage, after marriage and when separated from your spouse, everyone is called to be celibate. But there is a big difference between a temporary celibacy that you expect to end (even if the "temporary" celibacy takes years and there is no set time for the ending of it), and a decision for a lifelong celibacy.

I have been celibate all my life, and expect to remain celibate for the remainder, but I have not "decided" to live a life of celibacy. I am not sure I could face making that kind of decision. God warns us not to make vows that we are not able to keep. I am fairly certain that I could keep this one, but not certain enough to make a vow. I can't imagine anyone who has known and who needs physical intamacy who truly can.

Even Paul, who says it is better to remain celibate, does not suggest making vows of celibacy. Instead, he tells us that if there are needs, it is better to marry than to burn.

Most celibate people are celibate "one day at a time," as the saying goes.
[bible]Matthew 6:34[/bible]

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Living a celibate lifestyle is disordered and unnatural.

Hey there. That hurt.

 

[catlover]

Hey there. That hurt.

Those are the buzz words used against homosexuals in some circles...I used it to sort of put the shoe on the other foot.

 

[catlover]

Becoming a monk or nun is a beautiful way of living a devoted life to God. What many Protestants don't understand is that many Orthodox and Catholic Christians are called to serve God as a monk or nun in a celibant lifestyle. What's wrong with obeying God's call? Even if the person is homosexual, why does it have to infer they are running from this sinful state in doing so? I don't think that is what Justin was imposing here.



BMW

I understand celibacy is probably what lead to most of the sex abuse scandals within The RC- turning sex into a taboo causes disordered thinking. Since people can come on here and accuse gays of spreading AIDS and MRSA I can throw around ridiculous accusations as well. Maybe people will get an idea of what gays go through.

 

[Nichole]

I understand celibacy is probably what lead to most of the sex abuse scandals within The RC- turning sex into a taboo causes disordered thinking. Since people can come on here and accuse gays of spreading AIDS and MRSA I can throw around ridiculous accusations as well. Maybe people will get an idea of what gays go through.

Ok........now that was just an ignorant statement about priests! And neither was I accusing homosexuals of anything!

 

[seashale76]

I understand celibacy is probably what lead to most of the sex abuse scandals within The RC- turning sex into a taboo causes disordered thinking. Since people can come on here and accuse gays of spreading AIDS and MRSA I can throw around ridiculous accusations as well. Maybe people will get an idea of what gays go through.

Bologna. Life is all about choices. People wake up every morning and every moment of the day choose what they will do or not do.

The RC sex abuse scandal didn't occur because they were sex starved or had a sex taboo or something. It was all about people choosing to give in to sin. They didn't control their thoughts and became willing participants in the sin.

People fornicate and commit adultery for similar reasons. They didn't control their thoughts and became willing participants in sin. In the case of adultery, having a sex taboo definitely has nothing to do with it.

The same follows for every conceivable sin out there, as sin is anything that 'misses the mark', which for the Christian, should be a life in Christ. Anything that keeps people from that is disordered and a spiritual illness.

 

[BigBadWlf]

The color of skin is not wrong or sinful. That's a terrible comparison.

Sexual orientation is not different from skin color. So it is a perfect comparison. You just want to pretend what you are advocating is somehow morally better than those who preach discrimination based on skin color or religion or handicapped status or gender.

Those advocating racism happily use the bible to condemn the sin of blacks acting as social equals to whites. Having dark skin is not sinful, (according to racists) just acting as the social equal to whites is
They preach that blacks should confine themselves to the social roles God dictated. The end result is that what you are posting is indistinguishable form the rants of racists.

You obviously think racism is wrong, or at the very least you are offended by the comparison…why?
Please explain why it is morally wrong for racists to use the bible to prop up their prejudices but when you use the bible to prop up your prejudices it somehow becomes morally justified.

Yes, I have read through the threads. Some people interpret the Scriptures wrong. *shrug* It happens. I don't expect to change anyone's mind.

Let me guess… interpreting scripture “wrong” is defined as anyone who dares to disagree with your personal interpretation because you, and you alone, are always correct and could not possibly be wrong.

"You can safely conclude you have created God in your own image when it turns out that He hates all the same people you do" - Anne Lamott

Sure people with SSA are able to date and marry. It's still wrong.

the same claim was made about interracial marriage a generation ago. again please explain why your position is morally superior to those advocating racism

I never said "denial". A "homosexual" person must accept it, but then try and fight the passions. Denying that one struggles with SSA doesn't get one anywhere. I also never mentioned self hatred...

denial of love denial of family of freedom denial of marriage, denial of children
and the self hatred is obvious

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Orthodox priests can marry. Fr. Seraphim was a monk.



You couldn't be more right. One shouldn't just go to a monastery to get away from your problems in the world; it should be approached with humility and the focus on serving God, not yourself. You have to really ask yourself Justin, why you want to be a monk. Is it to run away from your problems in the world? Or is it to be obedient to God through intense prayer, fasting, and obedience?

You are correct that he was a Monk. I was born and raised catholic, so I was transfering the Catholic restriction on Priests marrying incorrectly.
But yes, years ago it was not uncommon for Gay males to join the Priesthood. It was a way in those times of predjudice and Homophobia, to not have to answer as to why they were not married or dating. But alas, what was sowed in the wind, was reaped in the whirlwind. I firmly believe that the young seminarians that fled society and hid out in the Priesthood, was one of the reasons that there were so many scandals in the church. There were many many young men, who felt that society allowed them no other choice, so they hid their sexuality and lived lives that were lies. this can and often does lead to unhealthy choices and outcomes.

Just a minor edit: I saw what was stated above. I am in no way implying that celibacy caused the sex scandal. what I am stating is that large numbers of gay males turned to the priesthood, because they felt that there was no room in a society that looked askew at Men who were unattached and not dating. I grew up in an Irish catholic enclave in a major US City, belive me, it could be unpleasant.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Roman Catholic priests are celibate. Orthodox priests can marry. Blessed Fr. Seraphim Rose was leading the gay lifestyle and he had a partner he loved very much.



Yes, celibacy is a gift, and it is for some and not for all. However, if leading a homosexual lifestyle is wrong, then there has to be some other alternative... celibacy in society, celibacy in a monastery, or becoming straight. I sort of laugh at the third option... it's never happened to me in 4 years. Jesus has never changed me. But I can stay celibate and try to live the life Christ calls me to.

And yes, I'm not the best and wording things. It's not a contradiction, I just wrote it funny. Being gay in and of itself is not wrong, but acting upon SSA is, and the Bible makes that fairly clear.



The color of skin is not wrong or sinful. That's a terrible comparison.

Yes, I have read through the threads. Some people interpret the Scriptures wrong. *shrug* It happens. I don't expect to change anyone's mind.

Sure people with SSA are able to date and marry. It's still wrong.

I never said "denial". A "homosexual" person must accept it, but then try and fight the passions. Denying that one struggles with SSA doesn't get one anywhere. I also never mentioned self hatred...



I don't expect to change your mind.

And I don't assume all homosexuals are males...



Because it is not wrong for a man and a woman to marry and live their life for God.



I'm not too good and wording things or at debating, btw. So all of the stuff that makes so much sense to me, when I word it.... well, it might not make any sense at all!

And thanks Phinehas2 for the help!

Oh, and, again, I struggle with homosexual passions and SSA as well. For four years. I want nothing more than to date and fall in love and have a family. But it's not what God wants me to do. I have to struggle against what I want, and what God wants.

I am not beating up on you kid. I am glad and support your decision to remain celibate. Good for you.

 

[HaloHope]

Just for the record, I don't take issue with people wanting to celibate thats fine, thats great, if your happy more power to you.

What I do object to is people telling me how I and others should live my life due to your take on some certain Bible verses, especially if those people are happily enjoying a loving relationship themselves.

I also believe some people feel obligated to, or are pushed into celibacy from religious abuse by other Christians and that winds me up even more as that isn't the right criteria for being celibate and can do some real serious emotional damage down the line.