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Wired: How to Date the Grand Canyon: Go With the Flow

lemmings

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The Grand Canyon is a victim of terrible press.

Its banded walls make up one of the most magnificent landscapes on Earth. And yet it seems the only time reporters bother to mention its geology is when they are writing about creationists and their bogus claims that the Grand Canyon formed a few thousand years ago. It's a shame, because the real story of the Grand Canyon is a riveting epic. Even its scientific history is fascinating: Figuring out just how old the Grand Canyon is has challenged geologists for 150 years. And just this week, the mystery may be solved.

Creationists would have you believe that the Grand Canyon formed in Noah's flood. They offer raft trips down the Colorado River where they explain how this supposedly happened. Once you're done with the trip, you can stop by one of the park’s bookstores and pick up a copy of The Grand Canyon: A Different View, written by tour leader Tom Vail.

The book appeared in the park stores in 2003, whereupon National Park Service geologists went ballistic. They demanded that it be pulled. Vail's lawyers threatened to sue. As the national media's attention turned to a juicy fight, the National Park Service hemmed and hawed, saying that they would review the matter. They never did. As I worked on this story I checked with the National Park Service, five years after the book appeared in their stores, to see if it was still for sale. It is.

I can only imagine how galling that must be to geologists. After all, when a geologist first set eyes on the Grand Canyon 150 years ago, he immediately recognized that it was immensely old. John Strong Newberry also speculated that water was responsible for carving down through a mile of rock, but he did not envision a biblical flood. Instead, he believed the Colorado River had gradually eroded it.

A century and a half of research has backed Newberry up, but geologists have not had an easy time determining just how long it took for the canyon to form. Their struggle is all the more remarkable when you consider that it took far less time to figure out the age of the Earth. In 1956 geologist Clair Patterson dated our planet at 4.5 billion years old, and 50 years of subsequent research has barely budged that figure.

Scientists know the Earth is 4.5 billion years old because planets and asteroids swept up uranium in the early days of the solar system. Ever since, the uranium has been decaying into stable lead isotopes at a predictable rate. Meteorites and Earth rocks all have proportions of uranium and lead pointing to the same age. The trouble with the Grand Canyon is that geologists couldn’t find a good clock to measure its growth. Part of the problem was that it was hard to find anything to date. The rocks themselves are ancient; the water that cut through them did not seem to leave behind a time stamp. As a result, estimates of the age of the canyon, and the speed at which it formed, have remained rough.

It turns out that the time stamps were there all along. They were just hidden away inside the hundreds of caves inside the Grand Canyon's walls. Strange formations known as mammilary coatings -- named for their vague resemblance to breasts -- line some of the cave walls. Mammilary coatings form on the walls of caves that are submerged just below the water table. As the Colorado River sliced deeper down into the Colorado Plateau, the water table gradually dropped. Mammilary coatings marked the river's fall. And as mammilary coatings form, they also happen to trap a lot of uranium. By measuring their age, scientists can measure how long ago they were near the water table.

Three geologists from the University of New Mexico have explored caves along the Grand Canyon, ranging from the very bottom to the rim. In this week's issue of Science, they report that the highest caves have mammilary coatings dating back about 17 million years, and the lowest ones date to about 800,000 years. And all the caves between the top and bottom have the intermediate ages you’d expect. By measuring the distance from the rim to the caves, the geologists were then able to estimate how fast the Colorado River carved the canyon. The downstream end of the canyon formed first, and only later did the upstream end catch up. These new measurements show that even as the river sank down into the earth, the earth itself rose, lifted by hot rock welling up through the crust.

The Grand Canyon is far older than Noah's flood, but at just 17 million years or so, it’s geologically infantile. For 99.99 percent of Earth's history, the Grand Canyon as we know it did not exist. Other canyons formed and vanished time and again, and only recently -- even as our own ancestors came out of the trees and stood upright -- a conspiracy of knife-sharp water and restless crust swiftly brought the Grand Canyon into being.


http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/commentary/dissection/2008/03/dissection_0307
 

Dale

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Here's another take on the Grand Canyon.


Creationists keep telling us that geologists are wrong about the age of the Grand Canyon and how it formed. Now geologists are changing their minds--but in the other direction!


"The Grand Canyon often is referred to as about 6 million years old - but its western half actually began to open at least 17 million years ago, a University of New Mexico team reports Friday in the journal Science."

Grand Canyon Older Than Once Thought
By LAURAN NEERGAARD,
AP
Posted: 2008-03-06 23:09:17



http://news.aol.com/story/_a/grand-...t/20080306184909990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001
WASHINGTON (March 6)
 
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RobertByers

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Do Creationists wish to refute?

I am a creationist and have a interest in how water creates landscapes.
We don't agree with these dates. I believe the dates bounce around with each new geologist field trip. It was not witnessed so it must be figured out. Probably it was the end game of the flood year that dug and ditched out the GC. However there were great post flood events going on.
The most obvious thing when looking at the GC is it was carved out by water flow and since its grand then a great deal of water.
As the missoula flood example tells great amounts of water can instantly do great things. This was denied by geology once. They said only uniform rates took place. Once again they are saying it here.
How can both models be tested?
How can these dating methods be verified?

The ability of water to carve rock quick is becoming a new of study everywhere. In Canada John Shaw, not a creationist, is a great geologist who has coined the concept of great meltwater events having created suddenly much of the scernery of Canada. Other geologists fight him. He shows how water also creates instantly great holes and grooves in rock.
It all comes down to evidence.
Rob Byers
 
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BrainHertz

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The ability of water to carve rock quick is becoming a new of study everywhere. In Canada John Shaw, not a creationist, is a great geologist who has coined the concept of great meltwater events having created suddenly much of the scernery of Canada. Other geologists fight him. He shows how water also creates instantly great holes and grooves in rock.
It all comes down to evidence.
Rob Byers

Do you have a cite for this? I've seen it hypothesised that glacial meltwater might create drumlins in short timescales, but nothing about carving out large scale features such as canyons.
 
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Loudmouth

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The most obvious thing when looking at the GC is it was carved out by water flow and since its grand then a great deal of water.

A sudden rush of large amounts of water could not carve out these features.

800px-GooseNeckStateParkPanorama.jpg



As the missoula flood example tells great amounts of water can instantly do great things.

The Missoula floods did not produce a single channel with gooseneck meanders. It created braided channels that were parallel to each other.
 
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lemmings

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I am a creationist and have a interest in how water creates landscapes.
We don't agree with these dates. I believe the dates bounce around with each new geologist field trip. It was not witnessed so it must be figured out. Probably it was the end game of the flood year that dug and ditched out the GC. However there were great post flood events going on.
The most obvious thing when looking at the GC is it was carved out by water flow and since its grand then a great deal of water.
As the missoula flood example tells great amounts of water can instantly do great things. This was denied by geology once. They said only uniform rates took place. Once again they are saying it here.
How can both models be tested?
How can these dating methods be verified?

The ability of water to carve rock quick is becoming a new of study everywhere. In Canada John Shaw, not a creationist, is a great geologist who has coined the concept of great meltwater events having created suddenly much of the scernery of Canada. Other geologists fight him. He shows how water also creates instantly great holes and grooves in rock.
It all comes down to evidence.
Rob Byers

"It turns out that the time stamps were there all along. They were just hidden away inside the hundreds of caves inside the Grand Canyon's walls. Strange formations known as mammilary coatings -- named for their vague resemblance to breasts -- line some of the cave walls. Mammilary coatings form on the walls of caves that are submerged just below the water table. As the Colorado River sliced deeper down into the Colorado Plateau, the water table gradually dropped. Mammilary coatings marked the river's fall. And as mammilary coatings form, they also happen to trap a lot of uranium. By measuring their age, scientists can measure how long ago they were near the water table.

Three geologists from the University of New Mexico have explored caves along the Grand Canyon, ranging from the very bottom to the rim. In this week's issue of Science, they report that the highest caves have mammilary coatings dating back about 17 million years, and the lowest ones date to about 800,000 years. And all the caves between the top and bottom have the intermediate ages you’d expect. By measuring the distance from the rim to the caves, the geologists were then able to estimate how fast the Colorado River carved the canyon."



Wasn't there only one Great Flood?
 
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RobertByers

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A sudden rush of large amounts of water could not carve out these features.

[




The Missoula floods did not produce a single channel with gooseneck meanders. It created braided channels that were parallel to each other.

I didn't say the missoula flood did or could create meanders. I did say that only reently has geology submitted to the concept of water powerfull enough to quickly create /manipulate scenery.
I always read how water has been found to do this or do that.
Theses meanders are great and most likely the result of powerful water making its way through rock yet not powerful enoug to straighten up.
Theres no reason not to see it as possible. Water working rock is still in its infancy. This is why the Juhn Shaw meltwater controversy in geology is not settled.
First impression of the whole GC should be that great water this way went suddenly. Including dimished powers of the water t the end that only carved a little relative to the whole.
Rob byers
 
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lemmings

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I didn't say the missoula flood did or could create meanders. I did say that only reently has geology submitted to the concept of water powerfull enough to quickly create /manipulate scenery.
Geology has long admited that there are occasionialy events that will result in rapid erosion. These events are extremly rare however because they almost exclusivly require a natural dam bursting.

Theses meanders are great and most likely the result of powerful water making its way through rock yet not powerful enoug to straighten up.
You have a wall of water coming through an area wiping out everything in its path; do you think that it is going to change direction every few feet? No, the path will not be winding back and forth.

Theres no reason not to see it as possible. Water working rock is still in its infancy. This is why the Juhn Shaw meltwater controversy in geology is not settled.
They used radiometric dating to date the stones in the caves.
"It turns out that the time stamps were there all along. They were just hidden away inside the hundreds of caves inside the Grand Canyon's walls. Strange formations known as mammilary coatings -- named for their vague resemblance to breasts -- line some of the cave walls. Mammilary coatings form on the walls of caves that are submerged just below the water table. As the Colorado River sliced deeper down into the Colorado Plateau, the water table gradually dropped. Mammilary coatings marked the river's fall. And as mammilary coatings form, they also happen to trap a lot of uranium. By measuring their age, scientists can measure how long ago they were near the water table.

Three geologists from the University of New Mexico have explored caves along the Grand Canyon, ranging from the very bottom to the rim. In this week's issue of Science, they report that the highest caves have mammilary coatings dating back about 17 million years, and the lowest ones date to about 800,000 years. And all the caves between the top and bottom have the intermediate ages you’d expect. By measuring the distance from the rim to the caves, the geologists were then able to estimate how fast the Colorado River carved the canyon.
First impression of the whole GC should be that great water this way went suddenly. Including dimished powers of the water t the end that only carved a little relative to the whole.
Clarify please, the lower section of the river was carved first.
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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I didn't say the missoula flood did or could create meanders. I did say that only reently has geology submitted to the concept of water powerfull enough to quickly create /manipulate scenery.
I always read how water has been found to do this or do that.
Theses meanders are great and most likely the result of powerful water making its way through rock yet not powerful enoug to straighten up.
Theres no reason not to see it as possible. Water working rock is still in its infancy. This is why the Juhn Shaw meltwater controversy in geology is not settled.
First impression of the whole GC should be that great water this way went suddenly. Including dimished powers of the water t the end that only carved a little relative to the whole.
Rob byers


Before we even discuss the erosion seen in the Grand Canyon we have to identify how the observed strata formed. Once we have done that we will move on to how it has eroded.

But you do not want to do that, because if you did, you could not believe in creationist ideas anymore.

LINK to Image


formations_time.gif
 
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RobertByers

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Lemmings:
It would be getting too technical for me to analysis lower or upper parts of rivers etc being carved out. The only concept I can contributr here is that water digging out rock as a sudden event is a new concept in geology. I mean in the last 20 years much new ideas on this is occuring. My example of John Shaw and his famous ,though fought, idea of meltwater events remaking rock is proof ot this. Uniformtarionism is under increasing recent attack in all these matters.
In fact it will probably turn out soon that geology itself will be saying its unlikely much time was needed or even could carve these meanders. I know the geologists of late have been lowering incision time rates all by themselves.

Creationism would not say the flood carved the meanders or the GC but the latest action of the flood year when the water was flowing off the continent in controlled flows is the suspect. The final act.
Rob Byers
 
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Baggins

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Lemmings:
It would be getting too technical for me to analysis lower or upper parts of rivers etc being carved out. The only concept I can contributr here is that water digging out rock as a sudden event is a new concept in geology. I mean in the last 20 years much new ideas on this is occuring. My example of John Shaw and his famous ,though fought, idea of meltwater events remaking rock is proof ot this. Uniformtarionism is under increasing recent attack in all these matters.
In fact it will probably turn out soon that geology itself will be saying its unlikely much time was needed or even could carve these meanders. I know the geologists of late have been lowering incision time rates all by themselves.

This whole thread is about an increase in the estimation of the time taken to cut the Grand Canyon not a decrease, didn't you understand that?
 
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keith99

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I didn't say the missoula flood did or could create meanders. I did say that only reently has geology submitted to the concept of water powerfull enough to quickly create /manipulate scenery.
I always read how water has been found to do this or do that.
Theses meanders are great and most likely the result of powerful water making its way through rock yet not powerful enoug to straighten up.
Theres no reason not to see it as possible. Water working rock is still in its infancy. This is why the Juhn Shaw meltwater controversy in geology is not settled.
First impression of the whole GC should be that great water this way went suddenly. Including dimished powers of the water t the end that only carved a little relative to the whole.
Rob byers

What utter rubbish. Geology has always said cataclysmic events happen and that they can quickly make impressive features. What was denied at one time was that slow precesses could create impressive features.
 
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Split Rock

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The most obvious thing when looking at the GC is it was carved out by water flow and since its grand then a great deal of water.
I still don't understand how the receding flood waters could have carved through hundreds of feet of wet sediment that had recently been set down by the flood itself. When did it become rock?


As the missoula flood example tells great amounts of water can instantly do great things. This was denied by geology once. They said only uniform rates took place.
I do not believe geologists ever believed such a thing.
 
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dlamberth

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As the missoula flood example tells great amounts of water can instantly do great things. This was denied by geology once.
It wasn't exactly instantly. The Missoula floods (all 80 or more) carved out the landscape over a 2,000 year period.

.
 
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