The Two Witnesses- possible answers

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sorry folks, the Pope and Rome are the 2 witnesses

http://christianforums.com/t6823406-question-on-reve-1911.html
Question on Reve 19:11

Chapter 20 Verse 4-5 Deals with Christ's Established Church that refussed to follow the beast. This was all done when Rome converted to Christianity and the 1000 years began.

 

[visionary]

Enoch was not just "taken" to heaven without dying:

True

Enoch was translated/transformed from the dead Adam spirit and flesh to the image of the son of God in his own father, Adam,s name.

No, there is only one name in which we can be transformed in any generation since the beginning of time and that is God's name.

Enoch was given the immortal garments of glory and taken ahead and set at the feet of the Son of Man in His Glory, to enter Zion of the spirit in the heavenlies by His grace.

I disagree with Zion of the spirit.. but is a reality of spiritual perfection.

The whole passage in Enoch shows that He went ahead in time to the establishment of Zion on the Foundation Stone. John saw the same vision as Enoch at the same place, in Rev 4.

No problem there.

The law of firstborn as is explained in the Word of God gives one the understanding of why Enoch was translated/transformed to the immortal body by second birth in the Living Spirit. The Living Spirit, Christ, has a firstborn "seed", in Enoch (by his second birth in the same Spirit) who is now raised up to the Kinsman's dead brother's name (Adam), so that the inheritance (the kingdom prepared for the human being sons of God to rule), is not lost.

Strange way of working it .. but ok.

The living brother is called Israel (Isaiah 49), and He is the Living Spirit, Christ, come in second creation human being flesh (the second Man, in the Word, is the second Human Being son of God) to be the Kinsman to the dead brother's inheritance and to "marry" the barren widow by also ransoming the inheritance of the dead brother.

Now that I do not follow.. what living spirit.. what second creation...what second human being son, who is the first.. and what is this barren widow and ransoming inheritance from dead brother stuff??

The dead (in spirit, since the fall) son of God is Adam (Luke 3:38). The seed are all born dead to the Glory and are not sons of God human kind (Malachi 3:15 -God made them one spirit for the purpose of multiplying the sons of God to inherit the earth as the kingdom the human being son of God was made from to rule over)and the inheritance is corrupted and fit for only destruction unless it is redeemed and restored).

ok.. I can follow that.

We are all Adam as to our kind until we are born of the Living Spirit from above. We who are joined to Christ by that second birth (called the adoption, in Scripture, which pertains to those natural sons of Jacob called by His New Man name, "Israel") are still in our Adam flesh, which is the "dead" for whom we are baptized in the hope of our resurrection in the same flesh in the regenerated image of the Living Son of God, at which time we will all be "Israel" as to our human being kind name, and the only one of us who are the seed of Christ who will be called Adam (as the name of the first human being son of God) forever, is Enoch.

ok.. I think I am following what you are trying to say.

search the biblical law of firstborn and see why Enoch is "morphosed" to the image of the Son of God in the name of the dead "barren" widow's (Zion of the Spirit) first "isyh". Adam is that first 'isyh's name, "Israel" is the second.

This Enoch morphised and relationship to barren widow is confusing.

In Isaiah 59 YHWH looked and saqw no 'isyh (translated 'man' there, but that is not a good translation for that word in that place) to bring forth justice and judgment for the earth. Therefore He, Himself, put on the garments of "Kinsman" which word means Redeemer, also, so that He could be the Redeemer for the earth which had no 'Isyh to ransom and restore the righteous purpose of it.

What do you mean by "Iysh"?

Elijah, on the other hand, is not dead in his human being Adam flesh body, nor is he translated/morphsed as Enoch is.

Really ... what makes the difference??

Only Enoch, as the firstborn seed of the Living Everlasting Spirit the Christ ( who was to come, and is come, in second man flesh -and shall return in the same) was translated for the Glory, before Christ incarnated rose from the dead in His own flesh body (as second Man) and raised those who came out of their graves and walked about the city, seen of many, to take them to the Father on high to fulfill the offering of the First of Firstfruits in the created temple in the created heaven on the first "first day of the week after Passover.

That did not explain why Enoch and not Elijah...

When He was glorified on high, they also were glorified with Him -but Enoch was already there.

Their glorification came from living in Heaven all this time in a glorified state, not because they came to visit earth and talk with Jesus

Moses is not dead, having been raised in his own Adam flesh body and gone up in the same, from where he will return in the same, with Elijah, for the Witness of Jesus Christ to Israel after the Church is removed from the earth -and not before the Church is removed, as the h=ingathered "first harvest", which is typed in Pentecost.

I see you are a rapturist.. we will disagree here

Those 144,000 Jews who believe and receive second birth and translation of their bodies of flesh to the image of the second Man are taken to Zion above as the firstfruits of the second and last harvest of earth, which is typed in Tabernacles.

ok...at the second coming.

After they are gone from the earth, Zion flees, as the star sign signifies, and that Zion is personified as the Woman who is hidden for the last three and a half years of the seven, which seven began with the ingathering of Pentecost, when those of the first harvest were taken to the Holies of heaven's temple to celebrate for the entire seven 'days' as Leviticus 8 signifies the sons will do, when they don the holy garments and celebrate their consecration as priests in the firstborn's name.

Now this does not make a lick of sense to me. Need a lot of scriptures to prove that one.

Elijah and Moses do not come to the world. They come to Israel as the two eyewitness of Christ come in flesh as their Atonement, and they witnessed His life, death, resurrection and ascension, seating in Glory, and His receiving of the Glory. They represent the witness of the Law and the Prophets to Christ, and they finish the call to Israel to come and be made whole in His name by the second birth.

Why must it be that the two witnesses come from heaven? Would you, if you were Enoch and have lived in heaven for over 4000 years, return to have you head cut off? Why couldn't the two witnesses be the two who hear the Lord say "come up hither" and they do and learn all that is necessary to give the last call to all of humanity?

When they and the 144,000 of Israel are gone from the earth, from that time, no man on earth will be able to be born again, for Zion is hidden. But those who come to believe and who are faithful to the end will receive the crown of life if nartyred, and also, those who remain alive til His coming will be made "pillars" in the "temple" not made with hands, by receiving everlasting Life by second birth in Spirit when He returns.


.

 

[visionary]

Sorry folks, the Pope and Rome are the 2 witnesses

http://christianforums.com/t6823406-question-on-reve-1911.html
Question on Reve 19:11

Chapter 20 Verse 4-5 Deals with Christ's Established Church that refussed to follow the beast. This was all done when Rome converted to Christianity and the 1000 years began.

They failed to reflect Christ.. They failed to refuse to follow the beast, as they have been negotiating with the beast since they got organized.

 

[zeke37]

The two witnesses are clearly the two olive trees AND the two candlesticks ...positive churches (Candleticks) of Rev2-3....Smyrna and Philadelphia...

what those represent to you could be an interesting thread....but that is who they are...anything else is just not so, because we are told just exactly who the candlesticks are in Rev1....and they are define in Rev2-3....and seen against the beast in Rev11., proving who they are and that the rapture is post trib.

 

[k2svpete]

Do you understand that the churches are representative of THE church during different periods of time?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Do you understand that the churches are representative of THE church during different periods of time?

I'm actually wondering if they are reflecting the heart condition of various people in the church throughout the last 2000 years.

Instead of one becoming another one at certain points in time, they all apply at every moment in the hearts of those who claim to be Christian.

 

[zeke37]

Do you understand that the churches are representative of THE church during different periods of time?

Nope, and I do not believe that either.

 

[k2svpete]

I'm actually wondering if they are reflecting the heart condition of various people in the church throughout the last 2000 years.

Instead of one becoming another one at certain points in time, they all apply at every moment in the hearts of those who claim to be Christian.

You're close Jen. The churches are representative of the church during certain periods since the writing of Revelation. The messages to the churches are poignant for the period.

Those who have this understanding of the churches understand us to currently be in the period of the Laotecean church. Its interesting to do a word study on the names of the churches too as it gives greater depth to the timing and messages.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

You're close Jen. The churches are representative of the church during certain periods since the writing of Revelation. The messages to the churches are poignant for the period.

Those who have this understanding of the churches understand us to currently be in the period of the Laotecean church. Its interesting to do a word study on the names of the churches too as it gives greater depth to the timing and messages.

I'll have to do that...and dig a little more.

 

[Carey]

OT and NT

What will the 2 witnesses have to say about todays judaism??


The eagles were, of course, the best-know symbol of Roman sovereignty. The dragons were a popular decorative motif in Roman art, and the whole candelabrum seems to testify to the strong Roman influence.
There are however some striking difference between Titus' candelabrum and its pagan counterparts. The Didymus lamp, for example, features a human figure, a water-nymph, seated on the back of the monster. It also portrays this creature with spiky rills issuing from its neck, an image that was explicitly prohibited by Talmudic law. Both these features are lacking in the image of the Temple Menorah. While both these facts argue for its Jewish origins, they cannot offset the strong Roman influence perceptible in the design.
As some scholars have observed, this mixture of a positive disposition towards things Roman, mitigated by a Jewish antipathy towards pagan images, fits the personality of King Herod, the despotic monarch whose prolonged and unpopular rule over Judea was made possible by his slavish obedience to his Roman masters. Throughout his career he tried to impose Roman social and religious institutions upon his reluctant subjects.
It is thus entirely characteristic of Herod's approach to introduce into the Temple itself a candelabrum that was adorned with the symbols of Roman authority and values. As in similar cases, Herod was unable to completely ignore the popular resistance to human images or explicitly pagan motifs.
If this is correct, then the Menorah that was plundered by the Roman legions was not the symbol of religious freedom that had been created by the Maccabees, but a despot's monument to foreign oppression.
This fact might account for the absence of the Menorah from the coinage of the Jewish rebellions in 69-70 and 135, which made much use of other symbols from the Temple worship. When the Menorah did regain popularity as a decorative theme in Jewish art from the third century onwards, it was the original three legged lamp that was chosen by the Jewish craftsmen as a symbol of religious pride and messianic hope.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/951215_Menorah.html

 

[LLWHA]

Why does everything have to be about the US? I love my country, but wow, it's not the center of the world or the cause of evil.

None of what you said is Biblical, nor does it line up with the description of the two witnesses from Rev 11.

The quote in your signature, if you agree with it, shows that man still blames the woman instead of taking personal responsibility for his own actions. I see it in my husband and son:
quote]

You are 100% wrong but you have to have wisdom to see it.

It starts at the First Book and ends at the Last Book and everything is in there for those that seek Truth.

Danish is Hebrew!! It means Dan's people, people of Dan. That is a little hint.

Everything is in plain sight and easy to read all that is needed is just wisdom and seeking the truth.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

True No, there is only one name in which we can be transformed in any generation since the beginning of time and that is God's name. ...

Hello Visionary,
I hope that I can explain what I understand from the Word of God -from the law and the prophets- and why I believe what I believe from what He has revealed to the prophets and through the Law. I realize that when one has their mind made up on a matter, no one can change it, and I have no delusions that I can change yours, but I will show why my reasons are sound, from Scripture. I also cannot deal with the entire post in one setting, as it involves too much time and would be entirely too long.

There is a biblical law of kinsman -which is an even older tribal kind of law, apparently- which teaches that the firstborn seed of the Kinsman who marry's the barren widow must be raised up to the dead kin's name so that the inheritance is not lost. He is the seed of the Living, but he is raised to the name of the dead, in the biblical law.
This earth is the inheritance which the Kinsman (YHWH in flesh) has come to ransom, but as it was given to "Ben Adam" then there must be a representative of Adam to inherit it. Since Adam is irrevocably dead in spirit (since the defiling of his flesh, as a clay vessel, which, once defiled, can never bear the Glory again, as Haggai 2 teaches and as also is taught in Leviticus), and as the Kinsman is not and cannot be a defiled Adam person, either, but is Israel (the second human being Son of God), then Enoch's second birth in the Living Spirit and his transformation to the "garments of Glory" (regenerated body, which was granted to him by the pre-incarnate LORD) fulfilled the law of Kinsman as is taught in the Word.
That was fulfilled before Christ (the everliving Spirit) was even come in second human being flesh.

Enoch is raised to Adam's name, but he is the firstborn seed of the Living Spirit, Christ, and that does fulfill the law of Kinsman.

My own opinion is that Enoch was taken to the future, because he was set down at the feet of Jesus, by his own record, to live in the city of God which he saw afar off, and which city is Zion above. the personified Woman, from Genesis to Revelation.. Enoch saw the same scene that John saw, in Rev 4 and 5, when he was granted his disire to go live in that city. He was "transformed" as the author of Hebrews also states, and which word is "morphosed" -rather the same root word used as for the metamorphosis a pupa undergoes to emerge as a butterfly (which is completely elementally dissolved and reformed into the new creature).

Now, before I go further, I must state that I fully believe that the Law was given as a true Teacher (Tutor/schoolmaster) of the one plan for the redemption and regeneration of the lost, corrupted earth, and of all the seed of Adam (whosoever will); and for that reason the Law is called "the Living Oracles", by Stephen. Anyone who denies this is not going to ever understand what God has taught in that same Law, as His revealed plan for this earth and it's lost sons; and frankly that is why there is so much surmising and mis-information in the Church world, IMO, because the basic instructions in the "Manufacturers Handbook" (as one man called it), is disregarded by so many people who have accepted Jesus as Savior, but who haven't a clue that the Gospel is not something invented in the NT times, but is "of the Jews" -"committed to the Jews".

At the time of the writing of the NT, everyone understood what it meant to hear from God by His "Oracles". YHWH did it first, and all the false religions copied it, as those who read the "classics" of ancient literature know; but in the OT (long before Greece had arisen as a world power and had adopted the false gods and religions of the eastern peoples whom they conquered), the Temple of the Israelites' Holies' was called "The Oracle of YHWH", itself, where the Glory dwelt, in type and symbol of that which was to come; and from where YHWH spoke with His people, via the High Priest. The High Priest himself was the type and shadow of Christ, and was anointed to serve in the office of, and as a type of, Christ, to rehearse His living oracles of the Day of Atonement, once, yearly, until it was fulfilled by Christ come in flesh.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the living oracles to give unto us:
Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Rom 3:1, 2 what advantage has the Jew? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

So if we will be taught by the Tutor, then we must learn the lessons.

Lesson of Firstborn -it is a tribal thing, and existed before the Law:
Gen 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

Mat 22:24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.



Deuteronomy 25
Marriage Duty of the Surviving Brother
5 "If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the widow of the dead man shall not be married to a stranger outside the family; her husband's brother shall go in to her, take her as his wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her. 6 And it shall be that the firstborn son which she bears will succeed to the name of his dead brother, that his name may not be blotted out of Israel.



Next is a bit of redemption laws, in Lev 25, which show the legalities of redemption: remember, Adam sold the earth into slavery to sin and corruption, and the "'Ishyah" is barren since the fall, and all the seed are born dead.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev025.html#top

You asked what the "isyh is, that is what the male Adam was made to be, as the husband, high king and high priest, over earth, when the "ishyah was presented to him, having been taken from his side and a "remnant" of the one spirit. Malachi 2:15 speaks of the reason He made them one spirit, male and female, to multiply the living seed created within Adam as sons of God =godly seed. That is the reason Adam called his 'ishyah's name "Eve" =Life, because she was the "mother" of all the living seed.

The seed all died, however, in the fall, and the true 'ishyah of the true One Spirit (Christ), was made barren in the fall, That true 'Ishyah is Zion above, the personified Woman whose seed (Christ come in flesh as the second human being Son of God) would crush the head of the serpent and restore all things. He "marries" the barren widow, builds up Zion by adopting all the dead seed of Adam (whosoever will), in His own New Man name, for the receiving of the inheritance of the sons in the regeneration of the kingdom, which He has ransomed and will restore.


When Adam was created, he was "made male and female", to multiply sons of God below, for the building of Zion of the Spirit, which was to be the habitation of the Glory of God. Zion did not get built up, in Adam, but is bring built up by the adopted sons of the Firstborn, Israel, -the only living human kind Son of God.

In Genesis, the 'ishyah was the bride of the 'isyh, and they were one spirit, one bone, one flesh, one blood; and they were made that way to have sons of God for the Glory to indwell. That glory was lost in the fall and we all died to that same, in Adam. The reason we wear clothes is because of the vanity of our being since that fall, in Adam, and the loss of the Glory of the sons of God. -(Luke 3:38; "Adam, the son of God"). Enoch got the adoption into Christ before Christ came incarnate, as I said, but he is raised to the name of "Adam, son of God", as the first seed of Christ; and when Enoch got the adoption into Christ, he got the "garments of Glory", but he is always going to represent the first son of God's name, which is "Adam". We, however, will be called "Israel" forever, as the "bride/'Ishyah' of the second 'Isyh for earth.
This is why the Church is called the "bride" of Christ, because He is the second "Isyh and the Church is the 'Ishyah, when joined to His Living Spirit by the adoption.

In Adam all died to that glory indwelling, and in the adoption into the name of the New Man, "Israel" who is Christ come in flesh and who gave His own name to Jacob as a sign of the adoption to come (Isaiah 49; Genesis 32; Hosea 12:3-5), all are made alive to that Glory. All who are born of His One Living Spirit are joined to Him and become His "bride" -His 'Isyh.
When backsliding Israel is returned to Him they will call Him "my 'Isyh"
( Hsa 2:16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, [that] thou shalt call me Ishi [Isyh]; and shalt call me no more Baali.), which is what the entire Church can call Him when we "awake in His image". This is all typed in the first 'isyh and 'ishyah who were made male and female, one Adam, for the purpose of multiplying sons of God for the Glory to indwell, as His human kind temple. Haggai 2 shows that the second temple is the second creation human being Man, and his adopted sons.

God gets His sons for the Glory by adoption into the second Son's Living Spirit, and all of them but the first seed of Christ (Enoch) are called "Israel". Then the kingdom is regenerated, and the inheritance is not lost.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


continued: Jesus as second 'Isyh -next, which is the second human being creation "High King and High Priest", for earth. Adam was the first, and is dead in spirit. We are all born in Adam and our name is Adam until we are reborn and regenerated in the image of the New Man, both in Spirit (which Spirit is Christ), and in body (which body is Isreal).

 

[HisdaughterJen]

That's what you call "meat" (not milk), ladies and gentlemen...wow.

What amazes me is that everything we would ever want to know is written in the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms (the Bible)...we just have to seek it and learn from it.

Act 17:11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.



Luk 24:44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Adam the dead in spirit (no longer son of God) first 'Isyh:

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:

"This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called 'Ishyah,
Because she was taken out of 'Isyh."
Adam was made to rule the kingdom (which his body of flesh was elementally formed from), as a son of God, human kind.
Adam was told to "have dominion" over all things in the air, the land, and the sea.
Adam was made male and female, one spirit, one bone, one flesh, one blood.
Gen 5:2
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
The terms used in the Hebrew above and in Genesis 1:26 -28 are the sexual terms for male and female, for the physical multiplying of the seed, but the terms 'Ishyah and the 'Isyh are the spiritual terms, for the rulers who had been given the dominion of the kingdom, to be called. That trem is about "office", "duty".

As Adam is dead and is no longer "Adam, son of God (Luke 3:38), and as there was no 'Isyh to bring forth the justice for the earth, then YHWH, Himself, clothed Himself in the garments of the second creation of the human kind, as Isaiah 59 shows, to bring forth the justice for the earth. For that reason, Jesus Christ as the Son given, the Son born, is the Everlasting Father of the earth and the Mighty God who brings forth the justice and also brings forth the seed by His redemption and the adoption, for the Glory of the unseen YHWH to indwell.

Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God [Israel], The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

To be adopted by His Living Spirit gives us the authority to call Him "Father", and He promises that He is our Everlasting Father, in John 14, when He states to the disciples (and to us, through them); I will not leave you fatherless/orphanos, I will come to you.


Isa 49:1 "LISTEN, O coastlands, to Me,

And take heed, you peoples from afar!
The LORD has called Me from the womb;
From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name.
Isa 49:2 And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword;
In the shadow of His hand He has hidden Me,
And made Me a polished shaft;
In His quiver He has hidden Me."

Isa 49:3 "And He said to me,
'You are My servant, O Israel,
In whom I will be glorified.'


Isa 49:5 "And now the LORD says,
Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him,
So that Israel is gathered to Him[fn1]
(For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD,
And My God shall be My strength),
Isa 49:6 Indeed He says,
'It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

YHWH as second 'Isyh is in Isaiah 59:
The Redeemer of Zion

Then the Lord saw it, and it displeased Him
That there was no justice.
16 He saw that there was no 'Isyh,
And wondered that there was no intercessor;
Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him;
And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.
17 For He put on righteousness as a breastplate,
And a helmet of salvation on His head;
He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, [HE became incarnate as a second human being]

And was clad with zeal as a cloak.
18 According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay,
Fury to His adversaries,
Recompense to His enemies;
The coastlands He will fully repay.
19 So shall they fear
The name of the Lord from the west,
And His glory from the rising of the sun;
When the enemy comes in like a flood,
The Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him.

20 "The Redeemer/KINSMAN will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,"
Says the Lord,

Isa 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

1Cr 15:47 The first anthropos/human being [is] of the earth, earthy: the second anthropos/human being [is] the Lord from heaven.
In Adam all die, in Christ, all are made alive (whosoever will).

Enoch was made alive before any of us, in Christ.

 

[LLWHA]

Ahhh, no.

Zec 4:14 is the key people!

Who are the two groups anointed to serve the Lord?

1. Israel, the Jews are God's chosen people.
2. The Christian church. We are adopted as God's children as the new Israel.

There, now you know.
Good pick of the verses Jen.

I think you need to go back and study your Bible buddy.

The House of Judah, The House of Israel are two totally different groups.

The people called Jews are kind of total different group from the two above groups. Some of The House of Judah might call themselves Jews today. They mingled.

Israel is Gods chosen Nation or commonwealth of nations. These people (Israel) are not or most not from The House of Judah. Nor are they Jews.

Jesus came for the lost Tribes of Israel!!

Olive tree means Israel. Fig tree means Jews!!

4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What [are] these two olive trees upon the right [side] of the candlestick and upon the left [side] thereof?
4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What [be these] two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden [oil] out of themselves?


No Fig trees here!! No Jews and no House of Judah!!

 

[Carey]

I think you need to go back and study your Bible buddy.

The House of Judah, The House of Israel are two totally different groups.

The people called Jews are kind of total different group from the two above groups. Some of The House of Judah might call themselves Jews today. They mingled.

Israel is Gods chosen Nation or commonwealth of nations. These people (Israel) are not or most not from The House of Judah. Nor are they Jews.

Jesus came for the lost Tribes of Israel!!

Olive tree means Israel. Fig tree means Jews!!

4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What [are] these two olive trees upon the right [side] of the candlestick and upon the left [side] thereof?
4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What [be these] two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden [oil] out of themselves?


No Fig trees here!! No Jews and no House of Judah!!

You are wrong the Rulers of Israel today are the true
genetic decendents of Isaac and heirs to the land of Canaan they now rule.

They are also the brood of vipers that will be punished at Christs return.

I do not think the 2 witnesses are groups. I think they areliteral individual beings. I think they will perform amazing miracles and we will see them do it hollywood style on the news for real.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

...sacrificing on a divinely legitimate altar on the present ruins of the second temple. What they will need is supernatural protection to re-institute the sacrifices (cf. Dan. 9:27) in the presence of enormous, even global, opposition (cf. Rev. 11:10).



why on earth would God send two witnesses to start all that animal sacrifice again? what about Jesus? didn't he replace that? If the two witnesses are two people, Elijah and Moses, how can that be? Moses died, his body might have been honoured, but how can he return, by re-incarnation? Jesus is the first of the resurrection, not the second.

 

[Carey]

...sacrificing on a divinely legitimate altar on the present ruins of the second temple. What they will need is supernatural protection to re-institute the sacrifices (cf. Dan. 9:27) in the presence of enormous, even global, opposition (cf. Rev. 11:10).



why on earth would God send two witnesses to start all that animal sacrifice again? what about Jesus? didn't he replace that? If the two witnesses are two people, Elijah and Moses, how can that be? Moses died, his body might have been honoured, but how can he return, by re-incarnation? Jesus is the first of the resurrection, not the second.

It is my understanding the 2 witnesses will be speaking out against the animal scarifces??

PLease post the scriptures that are comfusing you

 

[HisdaughterJen]

...sacrificing on a divinely legitimate altar on the present ruins of the second temple. What they will need is supernatural protection to re-institute the sacrifices (cf. Dan. 9:27) in the presence of enormous, even global, opposition (cf. Rev. 11:10).



why on earth would God send two witnesses to start all that animal sacrifice again? what about Jesus? didn't he replace that? If the two witnesses are two people, Elijah and Moses, how can that be? Moses died, his body might have been honoured, but how can he return, by re-incarnation? Jesus is the first of the resurrection, not the second.

Jud 1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”




Why was there a dispute?



Don't you think that Moses and Elijah could be resurrected and be the two witnesses?



Zech 4 implies that the two witnesses have something to do with the building of the temple.

Zec 4:1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,
Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all [of] gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which [are] upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right [side] of the bowl, and the other upon the left [side] thereof.
Zec 4:4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What [are] these, my lord?
Zec 4:5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
Zec 4:7 Who [art] thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel [thou shalt become] a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone [thereof with] shoutings, [crying], Grace, grace unto it.
Zec 4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Zec 4:9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
Zec 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel [with] those seven; they [are] the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What [are] these two olive trees upon the right [side] of the candlestick and upon the left [side] thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What [be these] two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden [oil] out of themselves?
Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these [be]? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These [are] the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

Jud 1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Moses' body was a body, (which proves he died), maybe to be translated into another dimension of heaven, doesn't say he was resurrected.
I don't think it very likely that Moses and Elijah would be resurrected, and Elijah wouldn't need to be, as he never died, and nor did Enoch. Elijah returning from heaven and Moses resurrected? possible I suppose.
There's a problem here, because the Bible said that Jesus met with Elijah and Moses on the hill, so was Moses in some sort of 'astral body' or was it actually Enoch they were seeing? I doubt that as that would be an error in the Bible and I don't think there are errors in the Bible.
I think it is more likely that the witnesses are symbolic, and had the character of Elijah and Moses, perhaps.
Symbolic like I said in that thread which I've lost interest in, about the Dome of the Rock, as the abomination of desolation, I still haven't left that theory, I have to study it further to see the merit of it.