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Our view of Heaven and Hell and its impact on this debate

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Vance

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In ancient times, heaven was thought to be just "up there", just beyond the sky, somewhere we could get to if you could fly high enough. Or, based on some ancient Jewish thought, a series of levels up above the lower levels of our earth and sky. But still "up there". And Scripture was written from this perspective. It talks about going "up" to heaven, and Hell is going "down", deep into the earth. Scripture after Scripture uses this language, which was both a reflection of the current "science" and became such a strong and evocative presentation that it still is our basic default for discussion.

Now, most Christians, Jews and Muslims today do not really think heaven is up in the sky, or even out in space. We do not think heaven is "head toward alpha centuari, then take a left at the third star". We do not believe we could get there with the right space ship. We realize that heaven is a place that is separate from our current physical reality, a real and physical place, but not within our existing universe. And we don't believe that Hell is really down in the depths of our current earth (although it would be hot enough!), and that Satan is really in a pool of magma a few miles underground. Hell is a real place, but not one we could drill down and find.

But this is a fairly new perspective, and one that has kind of snuck up on us without much fanfare. We quite easily, even subconsciously, reassessed all those myriad of Scriptures that were based on, and reinforced, the ancient perspective, and simply ditched the literal interpretation. For some reason, it did not even cause a ripple that I have seen, as contrasted with the geocentrism fiasco, in which it took hundreds of years, some claims of heresy and a lot of angst, before we shifted our collective interpretation from literal to figurative on that issue.

The sad situation is that the age of the earth and evolutionary development are taking the "heresy and angst" route to acceptance rather than the "ah, well then, it must be figurative" approach we adopted with heaven. The end result will be the same, we will still end up with a full acceptance of the evidence from God's Creation and simply realize that our literal historical narrative reading was incorrect, but it is a crying shame we have to take this long, damaging road to get there.
 

juvenissun

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In fact, I don't think we have to ditch the up and down concept literally.

There is little problem that the heaven is up. No matter where you are on the earth and no matter where the heaven is, it is literally "up" relative to where we are now.

As far as "down" to the hell, there is no need to think it is somewhere under the ground. Since the hell is defined by a place where a person or a being can not see God, so, if the heaven is up, then people who goes to hell does not have to go anywhere. The earth, or this universe, will become the hell. So the "down" is relative to the "up" and can still be understood literally.

Besides, think about all the words for direction one can use. In addition to up, for the heaven, it would be inappropriate to use directions like right, left, front or back for the hell. Then which one is left for that? Since the Bible is not a science book, I don't think it would be appropriate to say: "up 45° left" either.

Also, one does not have to go underground to find the lake of fire. What if the sun turned into a red giant prematurely? Nobody can say for sure that it will not happen tomorrow. And, who says the interior of the earth is not an appropriate place for the hell? How about inside the Jupiter?
 
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sago

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Vance, another excellent thread.

There is somewhat of a difference between stuff that the writers of the bible assumed everybody thought (like the position of heaven and hell) and the stuff the writers chose to explicitly document in story form.

I can see why YEC is more sore of a subject than the position of heaven and hell.

The writers of the bible may have believed things that weren't true (being human), but the stories God inspired them to write, could not be.

Its not my belief, I have to say, but I can see where it arises from.
 
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Vance

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Juvenissun:

But, you seem to be missing the point a bit. It doesn't matter where we are standing in our universe, since heaven is not a part of this universe. It is more like "beside" us, than off in some direction. It is more of an "elsewhere" idea, than pointing somewhere.

But, you seem to be getting to it with regard to using words that are simply the "best" we have to discuss things that we really can't fully explain with human language. Kinda like the creation of the universe? :0)
 
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Vance

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Right, which is why we have to remember that even those of us who do not read the text literally in many places still do not think that the text get's it "wrong" in the least. It could only be wrong if the text is actually making a scientific claim, and then gets the science wrong. I don't think the direction of heaven OR the exact method and timing of God's creation are meant to be scientifically described in Scripture. So, I don't think it is making specific scientific claims that we have now discovered to be "wrong" in some way.
 
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juvenissun

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Right, which is why we have to remember that even those of us who do not read the text literally in many places still do not think that the text get's it "wrong" in the least.

As long as people do not think the use of "up" or "down" is "wrong", I will not throw my analysis toward the person. Otherwise, he or she better prepares a reply to my argument.
 
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Scotishfury09

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In fact, I don't think we have to ditch the up and down concept literally.

There is little problem that the heaven is up. No matter where you are on the earth and no matter where the heaven is, it is literally "up" relative to where we are now.

As far as "down" to the hell, there is no need to think it is somewhere under the ground. Since the hell is defined by a place where a person or a being can not see God, so, if the heaven is up, then people who goes to hell does not have to go anywhere. The earth, or this universe, will become the hell. So the "down" is relative to the "up" and can still be understood literally.

Besides, think about all the words for direction one can use. In addition to up, for the heaven, it would be inappropriate to use directions like right, left, front or back for the hell. Then which one is left for that? Since the Bible is not a science book, I don't think it would be appropriate to say: "up 45° left" either.

Also, one does not have to go underground to find the lake of fire. What if the sun turned into a red giant prematurely? Nobody can say for sure that it will not happen tomorrow. And, who says the interior of the earth is not an appropriate place for the hell? How about inside the Jupiter?

"Literally" speaking, Hell would be right outside of Jerusalem. Gehenna comes from Ge Hinnom, meaning "Valley of Hinnom". It was a garbage dump located just south of Jerusalem. The Israelites burned all of their garbage in this valley. So, literally, Hell can't be inside "the" Jupiter. It can't be in the earth. It's right outside Jerusalem.

Now, if one were to take it symbolically (as it should be), I would agree with Vance.

We realize that heaven is a place that is separate from our current physical reality, a real and physical place, but not within our existing universe.
 
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juvenissun

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"Literally" speaking, Hell would be right outside of Jerusalem. Gehenna comes from Ge Hinnom, meaning "Valley of Hinnom". It was a garbage dump located just south of Jerusalem. The Israelites burned all of their garbage in this valley. So, literally, Hell can't be inside "the" Jupiter. It can't be in the earth. It's right outside Jerusalem.

Now, if one were to take it symbolically (as it should be), I would agree with Vance.
So, the hell is still at the "down" direction. No matter how you look at it.
 
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Scotishfury09

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So, the hell is still at the "down" direction. No matter how you look at it.

No, juvie, it isn't. "South" does not equate to "down". In ancient Egypt Upper Egypt was south of Lower Egypt because of the way the Nile flows. And even if it did, as soon as you go south of the Valley of Hinnom it automatically becomes "up" by your definition.
 
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gluadys

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No, juvie, it isn't. "South" does not equate to "down". In ancient Egypt Upper Egypt was south of Lower Egypt because of the way the Nile flows. And even if it did, as soon as you go south of the Valley of Hinnom it automatically becomes "up" by your definition.

Yes, as a kid I was confused by the fact that "Upper Canada" (Ontario) was farther down on the map than "Lower Canada" (Quebec). But again, it is because of the way the St. Lawrence river flows.

Ditto in Egypt with the Nile.

And, of course, on a globe, there is no reason to always place "north" at the top. Just Eurocentric tradition.
 
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Vance

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So, the hell is still at the "down" direction. No matter how you look at it.
Well, no, it is not really "down" in any literal sense, but that word becomes a good marker for our limited human understanding. Since heaven and hell are not places within our current time/space, they are not in any particular direction. But, it is convenient to use such phrases and descriptions as an accommodation to our limited understanding and ease of communication.
 
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juvenissun

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Well, no, it is not really "down" in any literal sense, but that word becomes a good marker for our limited human understanding. Since heaven and hell are not places within our current time/space, they are not in any particular direction. But, it is convenient to use such phrases and descriptions as an accommodation to our limited understanding and ease of communication.
Very good. I accept that. Thanks.

Now, based on what you said, could we still say that the use of words up and down is literally true? If not, how could we change it to make it more literally true? If you think that they are the best words we can use, would that make them literally true? If not, why not?

So we can literally say: we go _________ toward the heaven, and go __________ to the hell.
If we can not fill in the blanks, then what is wrong to use up and down as a literally true description? At least, they have some chances to be scientifically true.
 
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sago

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So we can literally say: we go _________ toward the heaven, and go __________ to the hell.

All directions, or other qualifications used for movement in normal space would be 'metaphorical', none would be literal in that context. How about just:


So we can literally say: we go toward heaven, and go to hell.
 
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Scotishfury09

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So we can literally say: we go _________ toward the heaven, and go __________ to the hell.
If we can not fill in the blanks, then what is wrong to use up and down as a literally true description?

The problem with this is that you are trying to give physical directions to something that is entirely spiritual. So, "literally true" is not applicable in this scenario. Quit trying.

At least, they have some chances to be scientifically true

Hmm... does this sound like the Creationists' mantra to anyone else?
 
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juvenissun

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All directions, or other qualifications used for movement in normal space would be 'metaphorical', none would be literal in that context. How about just:


So we can literally say: we go toward heaven, and go to hell.
I still like to say that we go "up" to the heaven is literally true.

Why not? Do you think the heaven is not "up" there? How can you be sure?

If you just say: "go there" and "go here", then there and here could be the same place. We need to separate them. At least, we should try to define ONE direction, then the other direction would be for the hell. So, what is the word we should use to point to the heaven? As we referred back to the OP, the word "up" could mean any direction. That is fine. But after the "up" direction is defined, a word for another direction would be the one for the hell.

So, the up and down are perfect words for people two thousands years ago, and are also perfect for us now. This defines that these two words are literally true expressions.
 
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Vance

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Well, no, of course we can not say it is literally true unless we were actually literally going "up". We are not going any direction at all when we go to heaven. The fact that it is the best word does not mean it is the literal truth. It is TRUE, in the sense that it does describe us going somewhere and up is as good a direction to choose as any, but it is not LITERALLY true. It would only need to be literal to be true if it was making an absolute scientific claim that heaven WAS up. If the text was really making that claim, then we would say that heaven must be up, or the Scripture is false. But it is not making such a claim, we are expected to "get it", especially by the time in our scientific progress when we realize what really IS "up there" and see that it is not where heaven is. If we have not figured out that it was a figurative phrase, then we are darn well expected to get it then, and not continue to read it literally!

The same happened with geocentrism and all the Scripture which caused people to think that the Bible was describing a geocentric universe. That was all well and good during the whole time that we didn't know that this was not the case. This misreading of this unessential caused no theological or exegetical harm. But, once we discovered the scientific truth, we were darn well expected to realize that we had our interpretation wrong, that we were reading it too literally and to change our interpretation. And, eventually, all the Christians did (even though for some it took a VERY long time).

The same is true of an old earth and evolution today.
 
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juvenissun

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Well, no, of course we can not say it is literally true unless we were actually literally going "up". We are not going any direction at all when we go to heaven. The fact that it is the best word does not mean it is the literal truth. It is TRUE, in the sense that it does describe us going somewhere and up is as good a direction to choose as any, but it is not LITERALLY true. It would only need to be literal to be true if it was making an absolute scientific claim that heaven WAS up. If the text was really making that claim, then we would say that heaven must be up, or the Scripture is false. But it is not making such a claim, we are expected to "get it", especially by the time in our scientific progress when we realize what really IS "up there" and see that it is not where heaven is. If we have not figured out that it was a figurative phrase, then we are darn well expected to get it then, and not continue to read it literally!

The same happened with geocentrism and all the Scripture which caused people to think that the Bible was describing a geocentric universe. That was all well and good during the whole time that we didn't know that this was not the case. This misreading of this unessential caused no theological or exegetical harm. But, once we discovered the scientific truth, we were darn well expected to realize that we had our interpretation wrong, that we were reading it too literally and to change our interpretation. And, eventually, all the Christians did (even though for some it took a VERY long time).

The same is true of an old earth and evolution today.

Note: I was replying to post#18, not to this one. Somehow it was misplaced. Sorry.

I know what you are saying. But, we ARE going somewhere which is the heaven. How do you spell out the navigation to that place?

The "up" is clear to earlier people. And it has a more enriched meaning to us now. It is the same word. The problem is that you HAVE TO use a word for it. You can not just say that we are going to the heaven by going nowhere, or by not going to any direction.

Do not be frustrated. I think we are discussing what exactly is the OP asked for.
 
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gluadys

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How do you spell out the navigation to that place?

The navigation cannot be spelled out in terms of direction, since heaven is not a place that can be located by direction.

The problem is that you HAVE TO use a word for it. You can not just say that we are going to the heaven by going nowhere, or by not going to any direction.

On the contrary, that is exactly what we can say. And if we choose to use the word "up" we can understand that we are using it for convenience, and not in its literal sense.
 
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