Universalism: pros and cons

[Nadiine]

Nadiine, you don't put the scriptures above Jesus Himself do you? Many of your posts come across to me that way.

My initial response to this is to ask this:
Is Jesus going to tell me or teach me something that opposes what's found in His word?

And my 2nd response is this:
are people putting their own opinions above Jesus's Word?
You may question "bible worship", I may question worship of human opinion over written word.

I uphold the Bible becuz it's God word to us to teach, lead & guide us into truth. We're told to rightly divide it and read it for our spiritual food.

It is what it is and its important, but it isn't "God".

 

[Floatingaxe]

From #80



Sure, I'll give it a shot, lol!

We had no choice as to such things as trivial as our eye-color, hair-color, gender, nationality, home planet, parents, or even whether or not we wanted to be born with a sinful nature, or to even be born in the first place.

I don't believe our will is free. We have choices we can make, but they're limited. Our wills are controlled by things outside our control -- circumstances, brain chemistry, personality -- things that God Himself is in full control of.

So human "free will" is not sufficient enough to operate as the Trump Card it's made out to be in nullifying God's salvific power in our lives.

Our will is very powerful--created by God, and given as a gift...to be used to accept Him willingly.

We can refuse. That fact alone is what makes the angels marvel.

 

[Nadiine]

This sounds like people who THOUGHT THEY KNEW CHRIST, but sadly maybe taught something else altogether. What would make Jesus THAT mad at them?

The issue is, not all of them are dwelling with God - He's denying He knows them & telling them to depart from Him.
The fact that it would be even ONE person would repudiate Universalism.

But it goes along w/ Jesus' admonishment of the wide & narrow gate.
MANY take the way to destruction, FEW find eternal life.
I disagree that it means literally a few (as in hardly any), but in percentage to population, it's the minority. I believe it will be many many millions of Believers.

 

[Tkjjc]

The issue is, not all of them are dwelling with God - He's denying He knows them & telling them to depart from Him.
The fact that it would be even ONE person would repudiate Universalism.

But it goes along w/ Jesus' admonishment of the wide & narrow gate.
MANY take the way to destruction, FEW find eternal life.
I disagree that it means literally a few (as in hardly any), but in percentage to population, it's the minority. I believe it will be many many millions of Believers.

Depart from me, doesn't equate 'BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY" now does it?

 

[Tavita]

Once again I say that God isn't the parent of all---only his own.

Gen 12:3 ....and in you [Abraham] all the families of the earth will be blessed.

[Ed., This is the original and foundational promise made by God, revealing His redemptive purpose and plan for all of mankind. Every promise, covenant, and provision given by God, including the law, the prophets, the priesthood, the church, and above all the Messiah (ie, "Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham," - Mt 1:1), point to and are the direct fulfillment of this one original promise given to Abraham. Thus Paul refers to him as "...the father of us all." - Rom 4:16]

Eph 3:14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
Eph 3:15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,

Rom 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

​

 

[SpiritDriven]

My experience has been that Universalists believe the whole word of God....correctly translated.
Most opponents of Universalism twist Scripture to suit themselves.....and they do not really believe the word of God anyway.....unless it suits what has been taught to them by Men

But one must be aware that it is God that has shut them up in their disbelief in his word.... I will quote an example....

 

[Tkjjc]

My initial response to this is to ask this:
Is Jesus going to tell me or teach me something that opposes what's found in His word?

And my 2nd response is this:
are people putting their own opinions above Jesus's Word?
You may question "bible worship", I may question worship of human opinion over written word.

I uphold the Bible becuz it's God word to us to teach, lead & guide us into truth. We're told to rightly divide it and read it for our spiritual food.

It is what it is and its important, but it isn't "God".

My initial response to this is to ask this:
Is Jesus going to tell me or teach me something that opposes what's found in His word?

He would if what is found in your English Word is different than is original True Message to the world.

are people putting their own opinions above Jesus's Word?
You may question "bible worship", I may question worship of human opinion over written word.

Only if the scripture doesn't interpret scripture. There is enough evidence to repudiate the doctrines of church's for the True Church to find out what the Message is.

I uphold the Bible becuz it's God word to us to teach, lead & guide us into truth. We're told to rightly divide it and read it for our spiritual food.

How can this be, when you hold the doctrines of man, over God's Word. All really does mean ALL.

It is what it is and its important, but it isn't "God"

But you just said it is God's Word, period, which makes it equivocal to the Holy Spirit in Truth, right? Or even to Jesus the Christ, right? In Truth that is, not talking about divinity or anything else, JUST Truth.

 

[SpiritDriven]

From 1 Timothy 2

1 I am entreating, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, pleadings, thanksgiving be made for all mankind,
2 for kings and all those being in a superior station, that we may be leading a mild and quiet life in all devoutness and gravity,
3 for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God,
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,
6 Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras),
7 for which I was appointed a herald and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the nations in knowledge and truth.

How many really believe that the work of the Cross is already complete, according to verse 5 and 6 the ransom is already paid for all....and this will be testified too over the remaining eras/ages/eons of Gods plan for man ?

How many believe verse 4 for that matter....that it is the Will of God that prevails...not the will of men ?

Let us see what those who do not believe would have added or taken away from the word of God.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Once again I say that God isn't the parent of all---only his own. There is no analogy that comes from family.

I warn my own children. I am not responsible for the children up the street who have their own parents.

Let Buddha, Allah, Krishna, Ganesh, the goddess, Satan, etc. take care of their own.

Do you kill other people's children?

 

[Floatingaxe]

Hell was never understood to be the everlasting torment that it's made out to be. In the OT, hell was always the grave. No devils with pitchforks, fiery pits, or fat-free Ranch dressing (the worst of torments). All punishment was seen as either temporal, in this life, or death and doing time as a corpse in the grave. That was the extent of it. Since Christ came to seek and save that which was lost -- this message undergirded by parables dealing with something being lost telling of how the searching did not end until the lost subject was found--there is no reason to believe that a lost state is a permanent one. Jesus came to save that which was lost. If it's lost, He will seek it till He finds it and save it. He isn't going to leave the job undone. (It's one of the enviable perks of being omnipotent, lol!)

Proverbs 4:7
Wisdom is the principal thing;
Therefore get wisdom.
And in all your getting, get understanding.


PLEASE, I pray.

 

[Rajni]

I realize there is a distinction being made between God's creation and God's children.

John 1:12 says, "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--"

However, I believe that ultimately all creation will carry the title of God's children, as it is promised in Romans 8:19-23:

"All creation, which now groans, shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into glorious liberty of the children of God" Romans 8:19-23

A relative few are called "children of God" at this juncture, but, ultimately, everyone will be ushered into this category.

Once again I say that God isn't the parent of all---only his own. There is no analogy that comes from family.

I warn my own children. I am not responsible for the children up the street who have their own parents.

Let Buddha, Allah, Krishna, Ganesh, the goddess, Satan, etc. take care of their own.

 

[Floatingaxe]

OK. I'll ask it. Does the Crucifixion teach anything or do people use the Crucifixion to teach things?

The question should be, "Does CaDan teach the truth He has experienced in Jesus Christ, or what he has read in tomes of literature about Jesus Christ?"

 

[Floatingaxe]

I think a lot of people are blinded (temporarliry or for a season by God) to the soveriegn Power and Will of God.

Teaching a Doctrine of Free Will, is like saying that the sword controls the arm that wields it....?

Man can be Will Full yes.....but it avails him nothing with God.

What is the Fathers good pleasure ?

God's pleasure derives from those who CHOOSE to love Him and desire His will in their lives....over their very own wills. He has a reward waiting for those who do that, and it is His good pleasure to give it to those alone who follow Him, who are called by His name only--those whose names are actually IN the Book of Life, you know?

 

[Floatingaxe]

Nadiine, you don't put the scriptures above Jesus Himself do you? Many of your posts come across to me that way.

It is ludicrous to claim that.

Scripture is our authority. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge that has no equal authority in their argument. It becomes a lopsided one at best, and those who rightly divide the word of truth, like Nadiine and others will always have the winning side of any debate.

God's word is powerful and alive and cuts through the lie like a hot knife through butter. (Read Hebrews 4:12) His is the last word and the only word.


1 + God = MAJORITY.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Gen 12:3 ....and in you [Abraham] all the families of the earth will be blessed.

[Ed., This is the original and foundational promise made by God, revealing His redemptive purpose and plan for all of mankind. Every promise, covenant, and provision given by God, including the law, the prophets, the priesthood, the church, and above all the Messiah (ie, "Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham," - Mt 1:1), point to and are the direct fulfillment of this one original promise given to Abraham. Thus Paul refers to him as "...the father of us all." - Rom 4:16]​

Eph 3:14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,​

Eph 3:15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,​

Rom 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,​

Rom 4:17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

The whole earth has been blessed by the people of God, the Jews. Your using that scripture has nothing to do with Universalism! Out of Abraham came all the prophers and Jesus Christ! Our redemption comes through Abraham.

Much of the blessing comes to the world by spillage, but you make a grave mistake in believing all are saved through God's provision of a Redeemer through Israel. You need to recognize Him and accept Him personally.

Gimme a break.

 

[CaDan]

The question should be, "Does CaDan teach the truth He has experienced in Jesus Christ, or what he has read in tomes of literature about Jesus Christ?"

Same question, actually, if you look at it.

 

[Floatingaxe]

My experience has been that Universalists believe the whole word of God....correctly translated.
Most opponents of Universalism twist Scripture to suit themselves.....and they do not really believe the word of God anyway.....unless it suits what has been taught to them by Men

But one must be aware that it is God that has shut them up in their disbelief in his word.... I will quote an example....

No they don't. They wear rose-coloured glasses for the most part

and shut their eyes for the remainder.

 

[Floatingaxe]

(Hearts and flowers strewn about...)

Jesus loves the little children,
All the little children of the world.
Red and yellow, black and white,
They are precious in his sight.
Jesus loves the little children of the world.

Everything is beautiful in its own way.
Like the starry summer night, or a snow-covered winter's day.
And everybody's beautiful in their own way.
Under God's heaven, the world's gonna find the way.

There is none so blind as he who will not see.
We must not close our minds; we must let our thoughts be free.
For every hour that passes by, we know the world gets a little bit older.
It's time to realize that beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.

And everything is beautiful in its own way.
Like the starry summer night, or a snow-covered winter's day.
Oh, sing it children!

Everybody's beautiful in their own way.
Under God's heaven, the world's gonna find the way.

We shouldn't care about the length of his hair, or the color of his skin.
Don't worry about what shows from without, but the love that lives within.
And we're gonna get it all together now; everything gonna work out fine.
Just take a little time to look on the good side my friend,
And straighten it out in your mind.

And everything is beautiful in its own way.
Like the starry summer night, or a snow-covered winter's day.
Ah, sing it children!
Everybody's beautiful in their own way,
Under God's heaven the world's gonna find a way.
One more time!
Everything is beautiful in its own way.
Like the starry summer night, or a snow-covered winter's day

 

[SpiritDriven]

Yet again from Corinthians....

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)


The word of God always reminds us that all men are subject to the will of God....notice how Christ will not reign forever in verse 25....so that he can full fill verse 24.......

It is amazing what you can pick up on when you respect the word of God.....yet how many people really do.

Notice how even the order of the Salvation of all men is listed.....

 

[CaDan]

(Hearts and flowers strewn about...)

Jesus loves the little children,
All the little children of the world.
Red and yellow, black and white,
They are precious in his sight.
Jesus loves the little children of the world.

Everything is beautiful in its own way.
Like the starry summer night, or a snow-covered winter's day.
And everybody's beautiful in their own way.
Under God's heaven, the world's gonna find the way.

There is none so blind as he who will not see.
We must not close our minds; we must let our thoughts be free.
For every hour that passes by, we know the world gets a little bit older.
It's time to realize that beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.

And everything is beautiful in its own way.
Like the starry summer night, or a snow-covered winter's day.
Oh, sing it children!

Everybody's beautiful in their own way.
Under God's heaven, the world's gonna find the way.

We shouldn't care about the length of his hair, or the color of his skin.
Don't worry about what shows from without, but the love that lives within.
And we're gonna get it all together now; everything gonna work out fine.
Just take a little time to look on the good side my friend,
And straighten it out in your mind.

And everything is beautiful in its own way.
Like the starry summer night, or a snow-covered winter's day.
Ah, sing it children!
Everybody's beautiful in their own way,
Under God's heaven the world's gonna find a way.
One more time!
Everything is beautiful in its own way.
Like the starry summer night, or a snow-covered winter's day

You have unmanned me, Sister.

Now, can we get somebody with a great big baritone to do "How Great Thou Art"? Kick me out of the postmodern club and take my liberal card, but I do love that hymn.