Moon was Created

[Nathan Poe]

Right, so I suppose all history, and experiences of man, including most on the planet as we speak, all ought to be melted into the opinion of some admitted backslider. You need to take a good hard look at who is doing the wishful thinking.

better an admitted backslider than a raving lunatic -- ask anyone.

After all, it isn't like there is any science to deal with spirits.
Face the facts.

The fact is that psychiatry deals with those pesky "spirits" well enough -- with the help of strong perscription medications.

I invite you to examine this for yourself -- in fact, I earnestly implore you to do so.

 

[The Bellman]

There is everything in the OP here, such as the impacts on men, from what they say was a spiritual cause. There is all the history mentioned in the thread, including the moon god that was a watcher. There is the personal experiences of most Christians on the forum here, as well as billions through history. There is no reason at all in heaven or earth to be in denial, and take natural science for anything more than the little pipsqueak present natural package, it itself purports to be.

So - nothing except arguments from popularity, huh? I'm not surprised.

Don't you know [science] does only deal in the natural, and physical?

Yet again, just as soon as you can demonstrate that there is anothing other than the natural and physical for it to deal with, the above statement will be meanginful.

 

[dad]

Of course we do. We try to put a physical model wherever we think it might work. But that's not "to infinity and beyond."

I know that, but many claim that things happened in the unknown past or future, like the sun will die out, and every star in the heavens, etc. They used to claim that we would return to the hot soup speck, and start all over again! They look at split affected light, that is redshifted, and declare the universe is expanding to infinity and beyond!! (forever) They look at the surface of the earth or moon, and figure that all of the inside must be the same. etc.

Prove that there was such a thing - otherwise, you're the one pretending!

No need to prove false what you cannot prove true. No need to question a known God, very well known God, whose proofs abound in millions of real lives, because you don't believe in anything but physical things.

Never said that it must be from PO material. No more than the air we breathe must be PO air.

Science does assume that the universe is homogeneous. That includes the center of earth. This is news?

Wrong. I don't "have no clue." People don't "have no clue" about what is inside the earth just like they don't "have no clue" about what is inside a locked room.

Did you just admit you have no clue?

It's just common sense unless you have an actual reason to believe that there's something else going on.

I do. Spirits live there, why not have it made of some material that is more than physical? What is common sense is to talk about things you know. You need a reason to claim that we know that the inner earth is the same.

But you aren't giving us any reason, you're just trying to make us doubt common sense!

Common sense of the surface applies to the surface, and places where it can be known to apply. What is down there might not be common up here.

It's common sense to assume that the stuff inside a room is physical even if you can't see it - unless there's some explicit reason not to. Same thing applies to the stuff inside the earth - just because you can't see it doesn't mean there's anything non-physical going on.

Or not. So why believe someone over God?

You see - your entire argument is based on doubt, not reason.

We should doubt those that doubt God, for no reason. What, you think you have a divine right to make stuff up?

EXACTLY! THERE'S ALREADY A GOOD EXPLANATION! THANK YOU!

There are normal causes, and exceptions. Spirits are recorded in the bible as causing disease.

And do we? No. No we don't. Not nearly enough. Because your argument is from doubt not reason.

Not nearly enough is known about spiritual material, because the Great Spirit isolated us to this temporary universe state, so how could we know? Where you have no knowledge of the interior, or reasons, it is right to doubt your claims.

Indeed. Now explain why. What's the best explanation here?

Either it is liquid, or spiritual and physical material. Why make stuff up, if we don't know?

It doesn't! That's the point! Goblins is just as good an explanation as the nonsense you're touting. Go on - prove that your explanation is better than goblins.

I tout that you need to know, before pretending you know. You don't know. So I don't need what you make up, I have God's truth on it. Until you grow some proof, and observation, and knowledge of what really is down there, you just do not have a clue.

You test every bit of air in front of you to see whether it's spiritual? A) I don't believe you and B) how?

Air is known. It can be put in a test tube. It can be tested. That has nothing to do with the stuff you claim about some place you never been, and do not know much about.

Wrong. You don't question what we know, so long as you like it. You've got no good reason to think that the interior of the earth works differently it all - because your argument is based on doubt not reason.

Whatever reason I have or not, and whether you think it is good or not doesn't matter. A science forum looks at your good reason for the science claim.

 

[dad]

better an admitted backslider than a raving lunatic -- ask anyone.

Alright, I can agree it could get worse for the backslider. I guess you can consider your blessings.

The fact is that psychiatry deals with those pesky "spirits" well enough -- with the help of strong perscription medications.

Really? Do they still use shock treatments, to drive them out as well? Or did they all decide it was more fun to work at places like abu ghraib? If you feel that turns you on, however, continue to seek all the help you need.

I invite you to examine this for yourself -- in fact, I earnestly implore you to do so.

Well, I'll leave you to that, Poe. Thanks for stopping in and telling us all about it.

 

[dad]

Why do you carry on the subject if you can't prove a universal negative?
I doubt you even know what one is.

Go ahead, explain what you think it is.

Tell me, are we "flying blind" because we don't know whether the air you're breathing right now is spiritual or not?

No.

Are we "flying blind" because we don't know whether the chairs are still there after we close the door? Or is it just plain old common sense?

We were there at one time, so they were observed. Reasonable evidence is good.

Because you appear to be saying that, since we can't see the centre of the earth we all of a sudden know nothing! Nothing! Because your argument is doubt not reason.

Newsflash: we have not been in that room. You seem to not like admitting limitations.

Er, excuse me, assuming no limbs regrew is just as sensible as assuming that leprechauns don't come into my room and have a party while I'm asleep.

But I do assume they grew. Why not? Piece of cake.

Show me the evidence (of either) and then we can talk. But you have no evidence - no reason because your argument is not based on reason but on doubt.

Are you suggesting that you have evidence that the lame did not grow new legs? Or lepers, new hands, or ears, etc? Get a grip.

No it isn't. Prove me wrong! Prove me wrong, not just some wishy washy stuff about people who know it's true.

I decided to prove it was right to myself. The prophesies really do that. Then, there is the fact it is alive and well, and works. There is something real alive in the words, and the Spirit behind them. Then there is miracles recorded over the ages, and the resurrection we Christians witnessed from the dead dead dead. So, it will take more than some supernatural challenged, natural only oriented man's doubting it, to shake my faith. Naturally.

 

[dad]

So - nothing except arguments from popularity, huh? I'm not surprised.

The history of Egypt, is argument from popularity? Real men on the moon with real impacted lives is argument from popularity?

Yet again, just as soon as you can demonstrate that there is anothing other than the natural and physical for it to deal with, the above statement will be meanginful.

If you claim there is only the natural, prove it. The fact you are in denial of the spiritual, that is well known, changes nothing. You may stick to the paltry, cultish, physical only knowledge methods all you like. But you cannot demonstrate that that is all there is, by any wild stretch of your imagination.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Go ahead, explain what you think it is.

If you claim there is only the natural, prove it.

Guess that answers the question about Dad's grasp of "Universal Negative" claims!

 

[The Bellman]

The history of Egypt, is argument from popularity? Real men on the moon with real impacted lives is argument from popularity?

The history of Egypt is not evidence for your god. Men (on the moon or anywhere else) who claim to have been impacted by god is precisely an argument from popularity.

If you claim there is only the natural, prove it.

Onus of proof is on you, not me or anyone else. You claim the spiritual exists but provide nothing to demonstrate that.

The fact you are in denial of the spiritual, that is well known, changes nothing. You may stick to the paltry, cultish, physical only knowledge methods all you like. But you cannot demonstrate that that is all there is, by any wild stretch of your imagination.

Yet again, since you can't demonstrate anything exists outside the natural, all of the above is nonsense.

 

[dad]

The history of Egypt is not evidence for your god.

I don't have a god. I have a God. The spiritual includes spirits, like gods. Since history records those, of course it is evidence of them.

Men (on the moon or anywhere else) who claim to have been impacted by god is precisely an argument from popularity.

No, it is from their personal experience.

Onus of proof is on you, not me or anyone else. You claim the spiritual exists but provide nothing to demonstrate that.

We have that, it has been the longest, and best demonstration imaginable. That is not an issue, it is accepted as a known fact. Whether you accept it or like it or not.
Choosing a silly little anything but spiritual set of criteria to govern your in denial little selves and your stories means nothing. If you claim it is the be all end all, the onus is all on you. The spiritual is a done deal, has been long before your PO science existed. Will be long after we bury it.
The natural I do not deny, and the spiritual, you should not. Together they comprise reality. Without the one, you have only part of reality.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Alright, I can agree it could get worse for the backslider. I guess you can consider your blessings.

Blessed are they who still hold all their marbles -- Poe 3:16

Really? Do they still use shock treatments, to drive them out as well?

No, that was the Christians beating demons out of "possessed" people.

Or did they all decide it was more fun to work at places like abu ghraib?

No, that was your Christian president torturing people for Jesus.

If you feel that turns you on, however, continue to seek all the help you need.

I'm not the delusional one who sees pixies.

Well, I'll leave you to that, Poe. Thanks for stopping in and telling us all about it.

I'm not the one who stands to benefit from sanity in pill form.

 

[The Bellman]

I don't have a god. I have a God. The spiritual includes spirits, like gods. Since history records those, of course it is evidence of them.

Yes, you have a god. History doesn't record any gods; it records men's reactions to their and others' beliefs in and about various gods.

No, it is from their personal experience.

Yes, an argument from popularity. "Look at all these people who claim spiritual experiences...they must be real!"

We have that, it has been the longest, and best demonstration imaginable. That is not an issue, it is accepted as a known fact. Whether you accept it or like it or not.

If you have it, you better trot it out. Certainly, no 'best demonstration imaginable' has been presented, or there would be no atheists (since the best demonstration I can imagine would convince everyone). Claiming it is a fact doesn't help you; you need to demonstrate that. You haven't. And you can't.

Choosing a silly little anything but spiritual set of criteria to govern your in denial little selves and your stories means nothing.

It would be, if I claimed it. I make no claims about the spiritual at all - neither "the spiritual exists" nor "the spiritual doesn't exist". I choose the "whatever is evidenced" set of criteria. Just as soon as you can provide some evidence for the existence of this spiritual, you'll have something.

If you claim it is the be all end all, the onus is all on you.

Nice try, but I haven't made that claim anywhere. My sole claim is that the material/physical exists, and that that is what science deals with. It is you who claim that something outside the material/physical exists (the spiritual), and that science doesn't deal with it. And it's up to you to demonstrate that, not me to demonstrate that it doesn't. The onus is completely on you, since you're the one making the claim.

The spiritual is a done deal, has been long before your PO science existed. Will be long after we bury it.

Yes, so you keep claiming. Yet you continue to fail to demonstrate it.

The natural I do not deny, and the spiritual, you should not. Together they comprise reality. Without the one, you have only part of reality.

I neither deny nor affirm the spiritual. Until you provide some evidence for its existence, I have no reason to accept its existence. If you claim that the spiritual is part of reality, then it is up to you to demonstrate that. You haven't. You can't.

 

[dad]

Blessed are they who still hold all their marbles -- Poe 3:16

That's nice. Is that your latest imaginary publication? Have fun spending the imaginary revenues.

No, that was the Christians beating demons out of "possessed" people.

Which Christians were these? I bet you think Gitmo and Abu gharib, the German concentration camps are monasteries!

No, that was your Christian president torturing people for Jesus.

That is one point I will grant you. If I were not Christian, I would be repulsed by the evil deeds of that man, claiming to be Christian. As a believer, I am also repulsed, but realize that the Christian claim is pure polotics, like Obama, the abortion meister, claims a church.

I'm not the delusional one who sees pixies.

No? That's nice. Keep up the good work. We are rooting for you.

I'm not the one who stands to benefit from sanity in pill form.

No doubt. It seems you get it from imaginary books, and heaven knows where else. All the best with that.

 

[dad]

Yes, you have a god. History doesn't record any gods; it records men's reactions to their and others' beliefs in and about various gods.

Oh really? So there are no Sumerian gods, or Egyptian ones in the records. How interesting. The moon god was recorded as the builder of the great pyramid, and sphinx.

Yes, an argument from popularity. "Look at all these people who claim spiritual experiences...they must be real!"

Well, is it better to claim, with no reason most are nuts?

If you have it, you better trot it out. Certainly, no 'best demonstration imaginable' has been presented, or there would be no atheists (since the best demonstration I can imagine would convince everyone).

The demo is all around you. What is the best demo you could imagine?

Claiming it is a fact doesn't help you; you need to demonstrate that. You haven't. And you can't.

It is demonstrated in lives I see. In the testimony of people that gave their life for the claims. In prophesy I test to be true. In miracles I have seen. The show is a private screening, and you need to come in to see it, or all you will see is the wall outside. Tickets were given to all men. If you remain in denial, don't blame me.

It would be, if I claimed it. I make no claims about the spiritual at all - neither "the spiritual exists" nor "the spiritual doesn't exist". I choose the "whatever is evidenced" set of criteria. Just as soon as you can provide some evidence for the existence of this spiritual, you'll have something.

The what is under your nose only philosophy can only get one so far. Have fun with that.

Nice try, but I haven't made that claim anywhere.

Then you admit there is more than the present natural?

My sole claim is that the material/physical exists, and that that is what science deals with.

You are right, it does exist, and that is all science deals with. So? Science deals with a portion of reality. (long as it stays in the present)

It is you who claim that something outside the material/physical exists (the spiritual), and that science doesn't deal with it.

Right, you admitted as much, that science chose to be in the fishbowl of the PO. There you shall swim, and only there. The power to deny what is out of that limited scope lies only outside that limited scope. You can't just stay in the fishbowl, and deny most men have swam in other waters.

And it's up to you to demonstrate that, not me to demonstrate that it doesn't. The onus is completely on you, since you're the one making the claim.

The claim of a spiritual reality is a done deal. It was known long ago, and has nothing to do with the PO science. It is not subject to it's laws, and ways.
The only onus is on you to prove there is nothing else but the silly set of physical only principles you prefer, if you claim as much.

I neither deny nor affirm the spiritual. Until you provide some evidence for its existence, I have no reason to accept its existence.

Fine. Some fish swim in a crevice, or pool near the land all their lives. If I swim in to tell them it is a wide ocean, they can't expect me to fit it in their little confines to prove it!
If a billion fish swim in to tell them they are being silly, and to come on out and see, no evidence can be provided to them. They lose the right to claim their pool is the be all end all.

If you claim that the spiritual is part of reality, then it is up to you to demonstrate that. You haven't. You can't.

It is demonstrated already, and has been long before you were born. It will not be crammed into the fishbowl you chose, that excludes it, though, that is unreasonable.

 

[MoonLancer]

Which Christians were these? I bet you think Gitmo and Abu gharib, the German concentration camps are monasteries!

ever here of a place called Salem?

 

[dad]

ever here of a place called Salem?

Never really gave it a lot of thought.' Let's have a look.

"The beginning of the Salem Witch Trials can probably be traced to Rev. Samual Parris who before becoming a minister worked as a merchant in Barbados. Upon his return to Massachusetts he brought back two slaves. One of the slaves "Tituba" cared for his nine year old daughter "Elizabeth" called Betty and his 11 year old niece "Abigal". Tituba passed on stories to the girls about voodoo.
The girls were fascinated with voodoo and soon started playing with it. They were soon joined by other girls in the village and started telling each others fortune.
One of their methods was to float an egg white in a glass of water and predict their future husbands. For reasons that no one is sure the girls started having fits, making strange noises and contorting their bodies.


"A total of 141 people were arrested, 19 were hanged and one was crushed to death during the Salem Witch Trials."


...Warrants for their arrest were issued and the Salem Witch Trials had started.
http://www.paralumun.com/witchsalem.htm

So, a corrupt government, and 20 people tried, and sentenced to death. That is big news?
How about, say, 75 times that amount, including children, with no trial, burned?

"Religious violence that erupted in the Nigerian state of Plateau a few weeks ago has expanded and resulted in the deaths of eight pastors and 1,500 Christian believers, and the destruction of 173 churches, according to a bulletin released by Open Doors USA."

How can anyone explain the reason for invading a church where women, children and men were worshipping, asking them to surrender and lie face down and then proceed to machete and axe them to death in their house of worship?
http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_04047nigeria.shtml

Talk about savagery!

Or here
"BAMUNIGAM, INDIA (BosNewsLife)-- At least nine Christians have been killed in India's religiously volatile eastern state of Orissa where Hindu extremists continued attacking Christian institutions and individual believers for a fifth day Friday, December 28, church sources said."
http://www.christiansincrisis.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1296&Itemid=2

"An estimated 400 Christians have been killed during peaceful and prayerful demonstrations by Christians in the Central Highlands of Vietnam."
http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_040413barn.shtml
"Masked gunmen have burst into a church in eastern Pakistan killing 18 people including children who were at prayer."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/28/newsid_2478000/2478093.stm

At least the witches, heads almost spinning, contorting, and speaking devil talk, and having fits, had a trial, and were sentenced by a court of law. Many today in The USA are treated like witches were, if they are christians!

"Remember the three Christians who prayed aloud in the name of Jesus when the U.S. Senate opened with a Hindu prayer on July 12, 2007? Although their Christian prayers were consistent with the history of prayer in Congress, Ante and Katherine Pavkovic and their daughter Christan were arrested for praying to the one true God and charged with disruption of Senate proceedings."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57702

"Now praying gets 7 Christians arrested
Cops call holding Bibles while lying prostrate 'disturbing"
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56544

" While preaching at Outfest, as well as handing out Gospel literature and carrying banners with Biblical messages, Marcavage and the other Christians were surrounded by a group of radical homosexual activists dubbed the Pink Angels. A videotape of the incident shows the Pink Angels interfering with the Christians’ movement on the street, holding up large pink symbols of angels to cover up the Chistian messages, and blowing high pitched whistles to drown out their preaching.

Rather than arrest the Pink Angels, however, the Philadelphia police arrested and jailed the Christians. They were charged with eight crimes – including three felonies – all rooted in the city’s hate crime law, which includes “sexual orientation.”

The Christians were charged with criminal conspiracy, possession of instruments of crime, reckless endangerment, ethnic intimidation, riot, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct, and obstructing highways."
http://www.afajournal.org/2004/nov-dec/11-1204noi.asp

 

[FishFace]

Oh really? So there are no Sumerian gods, or Egyptian ones in the records. How interesting. The moon god was recorded as the builder of the great pyramid, and sphinx.

And I thought that, you know... people built them! But no - that's nuts!

P.S. please respond to my posts on the previous page.

P.P.S

For reasons that no one is sure the girls started having fits, making strange noises and contorting their bodies.

Ah yes, and we all know that having fits is caused by witchcraft. I mean, epilepsy. I mean, witchcraft.

You make my laugh and cry simultaneously.

 

[dad]

And I thought that, you know... people built them! But no - that's nuts!

Well, we can think whatever we like. I look at history. Now, can you show us all the help the man in the moon had for that job. precisely??

P.S. please respond to my posts on the previous page.

OK, what was it you think I missed?

[/b][/size]Ah yes, and we all know that having fits is caused by witchcraft. I mean, epilepsy. I mean, witchcraft.

We do? Sorry no idea about that. But it is associated with demonic possession, which can come from messing around in the kingdom of darkness.

You make my laugh and cry simultaneously.

Is that bad, or good?

 

[Nathan Poe]

That's nice. Is that your latest imaginary publication? Have fun spending the imaginary revenues.


Which Christians were these? I bet you think Gitmo and Abu gharib, the German concentration camps are monasteries!



That is one point I will grant you. If I were not Christian, I would be repulsed by the evil deeds of that man, claiming to be Christian. As a believer, I am also repulsed, but realize that the Christian claim is pure polotics, like Obama, the abortion meister, claims a church.



No? That's nice. Keep up the good work. We are rooting for you.


No doubt. It seems you get it from imaginary books, and heaven knows where else. All the best with that.

And so, boys and girls, we see yet another true believer come unglued. If this is the best the "spirits" can do, I can't think of a stronger case for Atheism.

 

[FishFace]

Well, we can think whatever we like. I look at history.

No you don't! You look at flippin' myths! Not even your own myths, either!
History is grounded in evidence. I know you think that someone wrote it means it's true, but that just isn't good enough for history.

OK, what was it you think I missed?

Never mind, I'll address them in another post.

We do? Sorry no idea about that. But it is associated with demonic possession, which can come from messing around in the kingdom of darkness.

Any evidence of a demon? Because you know, I'd first go with epilepsy.

Is that bad, or good?

Bad. Definitely.

 

[The Bellman]

Oh really? So there are no Sumerian gods, or Egyptian ones in the records. How interesting. The moon god was recorded as the builder of the great pyramid, and sphinx.

Yup. None of those gods are recorded in history. People's belief in them is.

The demo is all around you. What is the best demo you could imagine?

It is demonstrated in lives I see. In the testimony of people that gave their life for the claims. In prophesy I test to be true. In miracles I have seen. The show is a private screening, and you need to come in to see it, or all you will see is the wall outside. Tickets were given to all men. If you remain in denial, don't blame me.

The what is under your nose only philosophy can only get one so far. Have fun with that.

Then you admit there is more than the present natural?

You are right, it does exist, and that is all science deals with. So? Science deals with a portion of reality. (long as it stays in the present)

Right, you admitted as much, that science chose to be in the fishbowl of the PO. There you shall swim, and only there. The power to deny what is out of that limited scope lies only outside that limited scope. You can't just stay in the fishbowl, and deny most men have swam in other waters.

The claim of a spiritual reality is a done deal. It was known long ago, and has nothing to do with the PO science. It is not subject to it's laws, and ways.

The only onus is on you to prove there is nothing else but the silly set of physical only principles you prefer, if you claim as much.

Fine. Some fish swim in a crevice, or pool near the land all their lives. If I swim in to tell them it is a wide ocean, they can't expect me to fit it in their little confines to prove it!

If a billion fish swim in to tell them they are being silly, and to come on out and see, no evidence can be provided to them. They lose the right to claim their pool is the be all end all.

It is demonstrated already, and has been long before you were born. It will not be crammed into the fishbowl you chose, that excludes it, though, that is unreasonable.

All of this is just the same stuff. You claiming the spiritual exists and presenting zero to support it. Just the usual assertions, plus the usual false claims that it's up to me to demonstrate it doesn't exist. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. You claim it exists; it's up to you to demonstrate it. You haven't. You never do.

The onus is on you, and nobody else. You are the one claiming the spiritual exists - it's up to you to demonstrate it. It's not up to us to demonstrate it doesn't exist - it's up to you to show it does.

This is a simple issue which is unrelated to your silly belief in the spiritual - it's just basic logic. We all agree the natural exists. You claim something exists beyond that. It's up to you to show that. It's not up to us to falsify your claim - it's up to you to support it. The onus is completely on you, as it always is on those who make the claim of something's existence.