• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Is Harry Potter Evil? (3)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Danyc

Senior Member
Nov 2, 2007
1,799
100
✟17,670.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Sacrifice for others is a Christian principle. I just fail to see this instance as symbolic of the death of Jesus.

Jesus sacrificial death is meaningless without his victory over death and the blood which cleanses us from our sins. Our being reunited with the Father through his work. What was purchased for Harry? Time? That's not to demean the sacrifice but, they are hardly similar in scope or meaning.

Lily's self-sacrifice is not the ringing sacrifice-relating Christian theme that people look at today; The major Christian theme is shown at the end of the last book, the Deathly Hallows.

I hate to give spoilers, but as you probably won't read the books anyways:

Harry, at the end of the last book, has learned that he was meant to die, so that Voldemort could be killed. Dumbledore, Harry's headmaster, friend, and almost father-figure, had long ago made a plan for Harry's raising and death; he planned out Harry's whole life for him, without Harry knowing it.
This is the time when Harry realized that he should sacrifice himself in order to defeat Voldemort. Quoting from Chapter 34 - The Forest Again:
"Finally, the truth. Lying with his face pressed into the dusty carpet of the office where he had once thought he was learning the secrets of victory, Harry understood at last that he was not supposed to survive." DH, p 691, The Forest Again

Harry's sacrifice actually is comparable to the magnitude of Christ's own; you see, Voldemort is, by this time, practically immortal. He uses the darkest magic to bind himself to the earth by splitting his soul and sealing pieces of himself into objects that he has hidden from the world; as long as these pieces exist and ive on, he cannot die, even if his body is killed. He has ways to easily restore his body. At the same time, he is the most skilled wizard alive, probably the most skilled ever to have walked the face of the earth, the deadliest there ever was. His reign of terror was much like Hitler's; he rounded up muggle-borns and half-bloods and what he thought of as filth, had them killed: His plan was to cleanse the world and fill it with only purebloods, those of purely wizarding origin.

It is hard for one who has not read the books to appreciate the magnitude of Voldemort's reign; put simply, he spread fear, confusion, and distrust by making drastic changes while remaining behind the scenes; he controlled the media, the government, and Hogwarts School. When you add in the aspect of what dark magic can do without government restriction, it is extremely terrible what can go on under his command.

Now, if Harry had not given up himself to kill Voldemort, Voldemort would have continued his reign forever; remember, he was immortal. In this way it represents the continuing death that would have gone on had it not been for Christ's death on the cross. It is very similar.

Harry's sacrifice saved the Wizarding world for thousands of years to come; the only way Voldemort could have been defeated would have been if another, more powerful wizard had come along, which is unlikely in the extreme, and that same wizard still had to find and destroy all of his ties to the earth, in which he prevented himself from being killed. This is an even harder task than actually doing the killing, for the enchantments and spells placed around the Horcruxes would be of extreme difficulty to get through, perhaps impossible; most barriers would require the person to kill themselves, or drive them insane, and the like. It would not have been possible.


Harry's sacrifice for the Wizarding World, and his walk to Voldemort through the Forest, resolving in his head and deciding that he would die for all, is the epitome of Christian themes. And in the end, Harry's decision to die was what saved him, for Dumbledore had planned it to be so.


Anyways.
 
Upvote 0

JWNEWMAN

Senior Veteran
Oct 6, 2006
5,182
136
✟28,654.00
Faith
Christian
Lol, ofcourse you would see that one. I think the author was intending on sending the reader through a suspense trip, not trying to make him out to be like Jesus.
I'm just trying to explain my understanding of allegorical interpretations. People in books are often dying for one another, and people in real life too. It's noble. It's sacrificial. But allegorical to Christ? "No greater love" in that sense yeah, but I'm looking for something more significant in other attributes and purposes for the use of the term allegory that's all.
 
Upvote 0

united4Peace

Contributor
Jun 28, 2006
7,226
742
Alberta
✟33,723.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Lily's self-sacrifice is not the ringing sacrifice-relating Christian theme that people look at today; The major Christian theme is shown at the end of the last book, the Deathly Hallows.

I hate to give spoilers, but as you probably won't read the books anyways:

Harry, at the end of the last book, has learned that he was meant to die, so that Voldemort could be killed. Dumbledore, Harry's headmaster, friend, and almost father-figure, had long ago made a plan for Harry's raising and death; he planned out Harry's whole life for him, without Harry knowing it.
This is the time when Harry realized that he should sacrifice himself in order to defeat Voldemort. Quoting from Chapter 34 - The Forest Again:
"Finally, the truth. Lying with his face pressed into the dusty carpet of the office where he had once thought he was learning the secrets of victory, Harry understood at last that he was not supposed to survive." DH, p 691, The Forest Again

Harry's sacrifice actually is comparable to the magnitude of Christ's own; you see, Voldemort is, by this time, practically immortal. He uses the darkest magic to bind himself to the earth by splitting his soul and sealing pieces of himself into objects that he has hidden from the world; as long as these pieces exist and ive on, he cannot die, even if his body is killed. He has ways to easily restore his body. At the same time, he is the most skilled wizard alive, probably the most skilled ever to have walked the face of the earth, the deadliest there ever was. His reign of terror was much like Hitler's; he rounded up muggle-borns and half-bloods and what he thought of as filth, had them killed: His plan was to cleanse the world and fill it with only purebloods, those of purely wizarding origin.

It is hard for one who has not read the books to appreciate the magnitude of Voldemort's reign; put simply, he spread fear, confusion, and distrust by making drastic changes while remaining behind the scenes; he controlled the media, the government, and Hogwarts School. When you add in the aspect of what dark magic can do without government restriction, it is extremely terrible what can go on under his command.

Now, if Harry had not given up himself to kill Voldemort, Voldemort would have continued his reign forever; remember, he was immortal. In this way it represents the continuing death that would have gone on had it not been for Christ's death on the cross. It is very similar.

Harry's sacrifice saved the Wizarding world for thousands of years to come; the only way Voldemort could have been defeated would have been if another, more powerful wizard had come along, which is unlikely in the extreme, and that same wizard still had to find and destroy all of his ties to the earth, in which he prevented himself from being killed. This is an even harder task than actually doing the killing, for the enchantments and spells placed around the Horcruxes would be of extreme difficulty to get through, perhaps impossible; most barriers would require the person to kill themselves, or drive them insane, and the like. It would not have been possible.


Harry's sacrifice for the Wizarding World, and his walk to Voldemort through the Forest, resolving in his head and deciding that he would die for all, is the epitome of Christian themes. And in the end, Harry's decision to die was what saved him, for Dumbledore had planned it to be so.


Anyways.
:eek:

Noooo!!!

:cry:
 
Upvote 0

Floatingaxe

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2007
14,757
877
73
Ontario, Canada
✟22,726.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Seems perfectly obvious to everyone else... the theme is one of sacrifice: One willingly accepts death as an act of love so that others live.

What's not to see?


Nah, that's just schmaltz. :p
 
Upvote 0

JWNEWMAN

Senior Veteran
Oct 6, 2006
5,182
136
✟28,654.00
Faith
Christian
Lily's self-sacrifice is not the ringing sacrifice-relating Christian theme that people look at today; The major Christian theme is shown at the end of the last book, the Deathly Hallows.

I hate to give spoilers, but as you probably won't read the books anyways:

Harry, at the end of the last book, has learned that he was meant to die, so that Voldemort could be killed. Dumbledore, Harry's headmaster, friend, and almost father-figure, had long ago made a plan for Harry's raising and death; he planned out Harry's whole life for him, without Harry knowing it.
This is the time when Harry realized that he should sacrifice himself in order to defeat Voldemort. Quoting from Chapter 34 - The Forest Again:
"Finally, the truth. Lying with his face pressed into the dusty carpet of the office where he had once thought he was learning the secrets of victory, Harry understood at last that he was not supposed to survive." DH, p 691, The Forest Again

Harry's sacrifice actually is comparable to the magnitude of Christ's own; you see, Voldemort is, by this time, practically immortal. He uses the darkest magic to bind himself to the earth by splitting his soul and sealing pieces of himself into objects that he has hidden from the world; as long as these pieces exist and ive on, he cannot die, even if his body is killed. He has ways to easily restore his body. At the same time, he is the most skilled wizard alive, probably the most skilled ever to have walked the face of the earth, the deadliest there ever was. His reign of terror was much like Hitler's; he rounded up muggle-borns and half-bloods and what he thought of as filth, had them killed: His plan was to cleanse the world and fill it with only purebloods, those of purely wizarding origin.

It is hard for one who has not read the books to appreciate the magnitude of Voldemort's reign; put simply, he spread fear, confusion, and distrust by making drastic changes while remaining behind the scenes; he controlled the media, the government, and Hogwarts School. When you add in the aspect of what dark magic can do without government restriction, it is extremely terrible what can go on under his command.

Now, if Harry had not given up himself to kill Voldemort, Voldemort would have continued his reign forever; remember, he was immortal. In this way it represents the continuing death that would have gone on had it not been for Christ's death on the cross. It is very similar.

Harry's sacrifice saved the Wizarding world for thousands of years to come; the only way Voldemort could have been defeated would have been if another, more powerful wizard had come along, which is unlikely in the extreme, and that same wizard still had to find and destroy all of his ties to the earth, in which he prevented himself from being killed. This is an even harder task than actually doing the killing, for the enchantments and spells placed around the Horcruxes would be of extreme difficulty to get through, perhaps impossible; most barriers would require the person to kill themselves, or drive them insane, and the like. It would not have been possible.


Harry's sacrifice for the Wizarding World, and his walk to Voldemort through the Forest, resolving in his head and deciding that he would die for all, is the epitome of Christian themes. And in the end, Harry's decision to die was what saved him, for Dumbledore had planned it to be so.


Anyways.
Interesting. I remember way back when I said that was what would happen in the end. Harry would be a Christ figure. Actually, it's what I expected.
 
Upvote 0

Danyc

Senior Member
Nov 2, 2007
1,799
100
✟17,670.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Interesting. I remember way back when I said that was what would happen in the end. Harry would be a Christ figure. Actually, it's what I expected.

Most people on the Harry potter forums I go to thought so as well, but nobody actually knew. It's so fun, or was fun, speculating about the coming books; it's so sad that it's over now. Great times.
 
Upvote 0

JWNEWMAN

Senior Veteran
Oct 6, 2006
5,182
136
✟28,654.00
Faith
Christian
No doubt noble sentiments are strewn throughout the books. The problem is still the same. Woven throughout the story tied to noble sentiments and deeds is wickedness (without going into detail) and in the end we have a sorcerer savior.

If you'll recall I mentioned foreseeing this end early on in the debate but likened it to the coming of the anti-Christ who will receive a deadly wound and be raised by his priest.
 
Upvote 0

Danyc

Senior Member
Nov 2, 2007
1,799
100
✟17,670.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
There is no Christian theme in those books. Whatever strengthening you allude to, if there is ANY, would be perhaps some sort of meagre and fleeting moral resolve concerning the strength of good over evil.

It has no power to influence anyone toward good or God.

Sorry FloatingAxe, but you don't have any credibility in making such statements when you have never read the books; you are showing your truly judgmental side right now, I advise against it, it isn't doing good for your reputation. Here is your Christian imagery:

Adler, Shawn. "'Harry Potter' Author J.K. Rowling Opens Up About Books' Christian Imagery." MTV.com, 17 October, 2007.

HOLLYWOOD — It deals extensively with souls — about keeping them whole and the evil required to split them in two. After one hero falls beyond the veil of life, his whispers are still heard. It starts with the premise that love can save you from death and ends with a proclamation that a sacrifice in the name of love can bring you back from it.
Harry Potter is followed by house-elves and goblins — not disciples — but for the sharp-eyed reader, the biblical parallels are striking. Author J.K. Rowling's "Harry Potter" books have always, in fact, dealt explicitly with religious themes and questions, but until "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows," they had never quoted any specific religion.


(SPOILER ALERT! The rest of this story discusses the conclusion of "Deathly Hallows.")
That was the plan from the start, Rowling told reporters during a press conference at the beginning of her Open Book Tour on Monday. It wasn't because she was afraid of inserting religion into a children's story. Rather, she was afraid that introducing religion (specifically Christianity) would give too much away to fans who might then see the parallels.


"To me [the religious parallels have] always been obvious," she said. "But I never wanted to talk too openly about it because I thought it might show people who just wanted the story where we were going."


Indeed, at its most simplistic, Harry's final tale can in some respects be boiled down to a resurrection story, with Harry venturing to a heavenly way station of sorts after getting hit with a killing curse in Chapter 35, only to shortly return. (
offsite.gif
Read how Rowling revealed the characters' fates to the "Harry Potter" movies' stars here.)



But if she was worried about tipping her hand narratively in the earlier books, she clearly wasn't by the time Harry visits his parents' graves in Chapter 16 of "Deathly Hallows," titled "Godric's Hollow." On his parents' tombstone he reads the quote "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death," while on another tombstone (that of Dumbledore's mother and sister) he reads, "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
While Rowling said that "Hogwarts is a multifaith school," these quotes, of course, are distinctly Christian. The second is a direct quote of Jesus from Matthew 6:19, the first from 1 Corinthians 15:26. As Hermione tells Harry shortly after he sees the graves, his parents' message means "living beyond death. Living after death." It is one of the central foundations of resurrection theology.
Which makes it a perfect fit for Harry, said Rowling, who was talking about those quotes for the very first time.


"They're very British books, so on a very practical note Harry was going to find biblical quotations on tombstones," Rowling explained. "[But] I think those two particular quotations he finds on the tombstones at Godric's Hollow, they sum up — they almost epitomize the whole series."


As the one to bring together all three magical Deathly Hallows, Harry, in fact, becomes the "Master of Death" by novel's end, able to bring back the spirits of his parents, his godfather, Sirius Black and his old teacher Remus Lupin. It's a conclusion that ends Harry's three-book-long struggle over questions about the afterlife, which begins when Sirius falls through a veil connecting this world and the next at the end of "Order of the Phoenix."


"Deathly Hallows" itself begins with two religiously themed epigraphs, one from "The Libation Bearers" by Aeschylus, which calls on the gods to "bless the children"; and one from William Penn's "More Fruits of Solitude," which speaks of death as but "crossing the world, as friends do the seas." No other book in the series begins with epigraphs — a curious fact, perhaps, but one that Rowling insists served as a guiding light.


"I really enjoyed choosing those two quotations because one is pagan, of course, and one is from a Christian tradition," Rowling said of their inclusion. "I'd known it was going to be those two passages since 'Chamber' was published. I always knew [that] if I could use them at the beginning of book seven then I'd cued up the ending perfectly. If they were relevant, then I went where I needed to go.


"They just say it all to me, they really do," she added.


But while the book begins with a quote on the immortal soul — and though Harry finds peace with his own death at the end of his journey — it is the struggle itself which mirrors Rowling's own, the author said.


"The truth is that, like Graham Greene, my faith is sometimes that my faith will return. It's something I struggle with a lot," she revealed. "On any given moment if you asked me [if] I believe in life after death, I think if you polled me regularly through the week, I think I would come down on the side of yes — that I do believe in life after death. [But] it's something that I wrestle with a lot. It preoccupies me a lot, and I think that's very obvious within the books."


That, by the author's own acknowledgement, "Harry Potter" deals extensively with Christian themes may be somewhat ironic, considering that many Christian leaders have denounced the series for glamorizing witchcraft. When he was known simply as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Pope himself condemned the books, writing that their "subtle seductions, which act unnoticed ... deeply distort Christianity in the soul before it can grow properly."


For her part, Rowling said she's proud to be on numerous banned-book lists. As for the protests of some believers? Well, she doesn't take them as gospel.


"I go to church myself," she declared. "I don't take any responsibility for the lunatic fringes of my own religion."

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1572107/20071017/index.jhtml

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2007/1017-mtv-adler.html

To the observant reader (of which you are not), the parallels are simple to see.
 
Upvote 0

JWNEWMAN

Senior Veteran
Oct 6, 2006
5,182
136
✟28,654.00
Faith
Christian
Most people on the Harry potter forums I go to thought so as well, but nobody actually knew. It's so fun, or was fun, speculating about the coming books; it's so sad that it's over now. Great times.
Gee, I figured it out without reading the books. And all by my lonesome? Never visited a HP forum. Just found the Lexicon a few days ago. Guess you can figure out a few things without actually reading a book. Like the all important HOW IT'S GONNA END. It was no surprise to me even though I never read any of the books. Seemed clear as the rest of it to me.
 
Upvote 0

Danyc

Senior Member
Nov 2, 2007
1,799
100
✟17,670.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
No doubt noble sentiments are strewn throughout the books. The problem is still the same. Woven throughout the story tied to noble sentiments and deeds is wickedness (without going into detail) and in the end we have a sorcerer savior.

Ah, but a non-demonic sorcerer-savior, at that. Remember, no demons in Harry Potter.

If you'll recall I mentioned foreseeing this end early on in the debate but likened it to the coming of the anti-Christ who will receive a deadly wound and be raised by his priest.

If you're comparing Harry to the antichrist using that example, that isn't a good example, because Harry wasn't raised by a priest, or anything remotely relating to that; he wasn't even saved by another person, you see. I'm not going to spoil it for you, though; Read the books! :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Danyc

Senior Member
Nov 2, 2007
1,799
100
✟17,670.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Gee, I figured it out without reading the books. And all by my lonesome? Never visited a HP forum. Just found the Lexicon a few days ago. Guess you can figure out a few things without actually reading a book. Like the all important HOW IT'S GONNA END. It was no surprise to me even though I never read any of the books. Seemed clear as the rest of it to me.

You visited the Lexicon after all seven books were already out, for one thing. Of course it would be obvious.

Me and the others have been discussing and speculating since the second book or so. We read a lot deeper into the books than you do, JW, and have thus found many different interpretations of what could happen, and why. We discussed those, mainly. Nobody knew, but a lot were very sure.

Besides, who ever said everybody in the world was as much a genius as you are (who figured it out after three days at Lexicon; great feat there, especially considering all the books were already out)
 
Upvote 0

JWNEWMAN

Senior Veteran
Oct 6, 2006
5,182
136
✟28,654.00
Faith
Christian
Ah, but a non-demonic sorcerer-savior, at that. Remember, no demons in Harry Potter.



If you're comparing Harry to the antichrist using that example, that isn't a good example, because Harry wasn't raised by a priest, or anything remotely relating to that; he wasn't even saved by another person, you see. I'm not going to spoil it for you, though; Read the books! :thumbsup:
From what you previously said that's what happened. Eh? Well, I'll read it in the Lexicon.

If I'm wrong about Dumble raising him he's still a false Christ. Witchcraft is a wicked practice. Creating a sorcery savior is really and anti-Christ message IMO.
 
Upvote 0

Danyc

Senior Member
Nov 2, 2007
1,799
100
✟17,670.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
It really is closer to the anti-Christ then Jesus. Because Harry is a false Christ and he's raised by his priest Dummbledore. Like the anti-Christ will be.

Nailed that one a long time ago in this debate.

I'm afraid you did not:

Harry is not a false-Christ, he is simply like Christ. What makes him a false-Christ? A false-Christ presents himself as the Christ, and people think he will save them, and instead they are deceived. Harry does not do such a thing,; He actually does save them, and he never presented himself as Christ.

Dumbledore did not raise him from the dead. It was Lily's sacrifice that saved him, in the end. It was Love that saved him. Dumbledore was simply his mentor and guide.
 
Upvote 0

Danyc

Senior Member
Nov 2, 2007
1,799
100
✟17,670.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
From what you previously said that's what happened. Eh? Well, I'll read it in the Lexicon.

If I'm wrong about Dumble raising him he's still a false Christ. Witchcraft is a wicked practice. Creating a sorcery savior is really and anti-Christ message IMO.

Wrong, demonic witchcraft is a wicked practice. We are still debating this issue. You have, as of yet, failed to respond effectively to I and Tissue's arguments concerning the roots of real-world wizardry and Harry's wizardry.
 
Upvote 0

CaDan

I remember orange CF
Site Supporter
Jan 30, 2004
23,298
2,832
The Society of the Spectacle
✟135,277.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Everyone? I'm pretty sure most parents would die for their children. OK, good, loving parents. How is that an allegory of salvation? Jesus death, bought us eternal salvation. His blood washes us clean of our sins. Whereas the parents death bought Harry a reprieve not salvation.

Dying for someone is certainly a noble act no doubt. However, how is this symbolic of the death of Christ for the salvation of humanity?

That's an allegory, too.
 
Upvote 0

JWNEWMAN

Senior Veteran
Oct 6, 2006
5,182
136
✟28,654.00
Faith
Christian
You visited the Lexicon after all seven books were already out, for one thing. Of course it would be obvious.

I didn't discover the Lexicon till a few days ago. This debate been going on much much longer then that. I'm not sure the Lexicon even refers the last book other then this: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/magic/deathly_hallows.html

If you can find where it does let me know I'd like to study that part.

Me and the others have been discussing and speculating since the second book or so. We read a lot deeper into the books than you do, JW, and have thus found many different interpretations of what could happen, and why. We discussed those, mainly. Nobody knew, but a lot were very sure.

Well I didn't say I knew but I said I expected it. Seemed very logical to me given what I did know.

Besides, who ever said everybody in the world was as much a genius as you are (who figured it out after three days at Lexicon; great feat there, especially considering all the books were already out)

I don't know how long I've been involved in this discussion but it was early on that myself and Naadine suggested Potter was an anti-Christ figure and, that was before I knew there was a Lexicon.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.