Headcovering

[submisive2him]

i daid earlier that I do not wear a head covering but there are a few families in our church that do wear coverings and I think that it is a wonderful thing

 

[desmalia]

No woman is required to submit to anyone who commands her to do something that God doesn't command her to do. God comes first. Just say, "No."

See I can't help but think that this is why you are so adamantly against this practice. Perhaps it's not the headcovering that is the issue for you, but what it represents: Submission to someone who is imperfect.

Submission is an attitude, not just following certain commands. I agree with you that the headcovering issue is minor. That is why it would be such a simple thing to submit to if my husband required it of me. In fact it would be a very easy opportunity to show him (and the world around us) my submission to him.

Do I resist submission at times in my marriage? Sure. I struggle with issues and can be quite willful at times. But that is my downfall, and not at all what God wants for me or for our marriage. It is simply sinful nature at war with godly nature. But we must continue striving to be the wives that God has called us to be.

 

[KorahRose]

We are told to be modest in our appearance. That is something that is not culturally based. It is a command.

I know this... I was making a comparison between the two. But obviously I'm not getting my point across very well. Oh well.

 

[submisive2him]

See I can't help but think that this is why you are so adamantly against this practice. Perhaps it's not the headcovering that is the issue for you, but what it represents: Submission to someone who is imperfect.

Submission is an attitude, not just following certain commands. I agree with you that the headcovering issue is minor. That is why it would be such a simple thing to submit to if my husband required it of me. In fact it would be a very easy opportunity to show him (and the world around us) my submission to him.

Do I resist submission at times in my marriage? Sure. I struggle with issues and can be quite willful at times. But that is my downfall, and not at all what God wants for me or for our marriage. It is simply sinful nature at war with godly nature. But we must continue striving to be the wives that God has called us to be.

amen to that I struggle sometimes with submission I agree very much with the headcovering being so minor the times that I believe that when WOMEN do not submit to there husbands that is why many end up with horable marriages has anyone hear read Created To Be His Help Meet by Debbie Pearl??? If you havent get it as soon as possible because it is the best book on being a help meet in my opinion

 

[desmalia]

amen to that I struggle sometimes with submission I agree very much with the headcovering being so minor the times that I believe that when WOMEN do not submit to there husbands that is why many end up with horable marriages has anyone hear read Created To Be His Help Meet by Debbie Pearl??? If you havent get it as soon as possible because it is the best book on being a help meet in my opinion

I haven't read that one, but I'm going to look into finding a copy. Sounds very interesting. I also recommend "The Excellent Wife" by Martha Peace.

 

[cubanito]

Desmalia, as usual you hit the nail w your sledgehammer.

While I am very busy these days, so not as active, I am back at what is AGAIn christianforums.com

It is good to read your posts again.

JR

 

[desmalia]

Desmalia, as usual you hit the nail w your sledgehammer.

While I am very busy these days, so not as active, I am back at what is AGAIn christianforums.com

It is good to read your posts again.

JR

JR!!
It is wonderful to see you posting here again, brother! Welcome back.
And thank you for the compliment.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I am just grateful to God that my husband views me as his equal and we work side by side as Adam and Eve did. He would never ask me to cover my head in this 21st centuray North American culture! We believe the same things. To cover as the first century Palestinians and Christians did, would run counter to our cultural practices and counteract the outward focus of the church today.

Reaching others and bringing them into the body of Christ and into the churches here need to be a welcoming, non-threatening, non-legalistic environment. To the unchurched, one glimpse at anything that smacks of legalism or religiosity, and they are out the door, and I don't blame them. I'd leave with them.

 

[desmalia]

I am just grateful to God that my husband views me as his equal and we work side by side as Adam and Eve did. He would never ask me to cover my head in this 21st centuray North American culture! We believe the same things. To cover as the first century Palestinians and Christians did, would run counter to our cultural practices and counteract the outward focus of the church today.

Do you really believe that leadership and submission roles mean inequality as human beings?

Consider the relationship of the Father and the Son. The Son submits to the Father in all things. Does that make Him less? Of course not. It is a perfect relationship that, when mirrored in our marriages is a beautiful reflection of God's love.

Reaching others and bringing them into the body of Christ and into the churches here need to be a welcoming, non-threatening, non-legalistic environment. To the unchurched, one glimpse at anything that smacks of legalism or religiosity, and they are out the door, and I don't blame them. I'd leave with them.

It is the sharing of the Gospel that compels people to come to Christ, not conforming with the world. Indeed we should be striving to avoid legalism, and I would suggest that is not simply so we can be more seeker-sensitive, but so that our spiritual growth is not hindered. But in this discussion, legalism isn't the major issue at hand. Also consider that the unsaved often accuse the Christian walk of being filled with legalism, regardless of whether that is true or not. Many will accuse us of legalism because we do not accept or welcome things like gay marriage, or promiscuous behaviour. If they are offended, they are offended by Christ. And we know we can expect that at times. We are not called to water down or ignore parts of the Gospel in order to make church more appealing.

My husband doesn't require me to wear headcoverings either. But I really believe it's our responsibility as women to focus on how we can be godly wives, not how our husbands measure up.

 

[Criada]

My husband has never asked me to cover my head, and would be perfectly happy if I did not. However, since the apostolic teaching - both now and biblically, requires this, I am happy to submit to their authority.
And- people are saved in our church meetings - no-one that I know of has ever turned away because of this issue.

 

[Floatingaxe]

My husband has never asked me to cover my head, and would be perfectly happy if I did not. However, since the apostolic teaching - both now and biblically, requires this, I am happy to submit to their authority.
And- people are saved in our church meetings - no-one that I know of has ever turned away because of this issue.

Yes, not that you know of.

 

[Criada]

You may be right.
But - I don't think God would let that affect someone's salvation.. He's bigger than that!
I'm not saying we are right and you are wrong - because I have no conviction one way or the other, really. But - scripture seems pretty clear, so i'm going along with that until God tells me otherwise.

 

[Floatingaxe]

You may be right.
But - I don't think God would let that affect someone's salvation.. He's bigger than that!
I'm not saying we are right and you are wrong - because I have no conviction one way or the other, really. But - scripture seems pretty clear, so i'm going along with that until God tells me otherwise.

Fair enough.

 

[tamtam92]

Reaching others and bringing them into the body of Christ and into the churches here need to be a welcoming, non-threatening, non-legalistic environment. To the unchurched, one glimpse at anything that smacks of legalism or religiosity, and they are out the door, and I don't blame them. I'd leave with them.

Indeed, what a threat to unchristian people, to wear a headcovering!

If the church was looking and doing exactly like the world, of course unchurched people wouldn't "fear" to come to church. But is it possible that the light is the same as the darkness?

Well, as light is different from darkness, it seems natural that christians are different from heathens.

Now about the head-covering issue. I guess if it was a tradition for women of that time to wear headcoverings, Paul wouldn't have had to tell them to do so. Moreover, the symbol represented by the covering has no reason to have changed since then.

I do wear a headcovering at church. I do so because the Bible tells me to do so.

I think it can be labelled a "secondary issue", that is i perfectly understand that some christian people aren't enlightened about it, but still i believe that no issue is too small to be obeyed. "He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much" Luke 16:10.

Anyway, in the case i'm wrong... it can be no sin to wear a headcovering when it's not commanded, whereas the contrary isn't true.


Curiously, such a small piece of obedience is a stumbling block to many. There are people who i know left my church because we are too strict about this subject (and about wearing skirts and no make up and no jewelry... and even i think we're not that strict... anyway...). Yet to many people this isn't a problem. I think it would rather be a problem for "old" christians, raised in christian families and softened up by easy life.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Anyway, in the case i'm wrong... it can be no sin to wear a headcovering when it's not commanded, whereas the contrary isn't true.

It is neither a sin to cover, nor is it a sin to not cover. what is a sin is to bring legalism to bear upon the people of God.

 

[cubanito]

The major differences between that tiny, politically insignificant movement known as Christianity, and all the many other philosophies, mystery religions and hundreds if not thousands of other movements in the Roman Empire?

Aside from Judaism, which was a tolerated ethnic religion, it was the ONLY philosophy/religion which claimed to be EXCLUSIVE Truth.

Christians were not persecuted by the Romans for worshiping Christ, but for worshiping Christ ONLY.

Also, Christians did not go wink at all the debauchery aroud them, they condemned it.

And Christianity spread like wildfire.

Now that we have decided to be "seeker friendly" and not offend anyone despite the clear teaching of Scripture, Churches are dwindling.

Now, for >1900 years in all Christian Churches every woman covered her head, as a plain reading of Paul states.

Yet suddenly, with hardly a thought, 1900 years of both tradition and a simple reading of Scripture was cast aside in less than a decade.

And for what reason? The recovery of a great doctrine? The well-reasoned re-interpretation of Scripture? A closer walk with God?

No.

For fashion and the accomodation of womne's lib.

Tell you what, I do not consider the wearing of a covering by women of great importance in itself, but it IS an important symptom.

I am a physician. I am often amused by the great concern shown to lower a moderate fever by lay people, nurses and even most other MDs. Any temperature less than 105 is not generally harmful to humans (exceptions occur). The elevated temperature is not of great concern.

BUT it is usually a sysmptom of great concern.

So with women's headcovering. In and of itself wether a woman covers her head is, in most cases, of little import...BUT... the amazing speed and thoroughness with which women headcoverings disapeared is a very important symptom. A symptom of accomodation to the world, of rebellion from the God-ordained authority, and of fashion over simple obedience.

I think we would have more honest people in churches were they to see that, like those early Christians, we are DIFFERENT than the world. Not different just to be different, but different in simple obedience to Scripture.

In attracting people by accomodation, the Church will lose out to Starbucks everytime.

JR

 

[VCViking]

The woman's hair is a natural covering.


1 Corinthians 11:15
But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

 

[desmalia]

The major differences between that tiny, politically insignificant movement known as Christianity, and all the many other philosophies, mystery religions and hundreds if not thousands of other movements in the Roman Empire?

Aside from Judaism, which was a tolerated ethnic religion, it was the ONLY philosophy/religion which claimed to be EXCLUSIVE Truth.

Christians were not persecuted by the Romans for worshiping Christ, but for worshiping Christ ONLY.

Also, Christians did not go wink at all the debauchery aroud them, they condemned it.

And Christianity spread like wildfire.

Now that we have decided to be "seeker friendly" and not offend anyone despite the clear teaching of Scripture, Churches are dwindling.

Now, for >1900 years in all Christian Churches every woman covered her head, as a plain reading of Paul states.

Yet suddenly, with hardly a thought, 1900 years of both tradition and a simple reading of Scripture was cast aside in less than a decade.

And for what reason? The recovery of a great doctrine? The well-reasoned re-interpretation of Scripture? A closer walk with God?

No.

For fashion and the accomodation of womne's lib.

Tell you what, I do not consider the wearing of a covering by women of great importance in itself, but it IS an important symptom.

I am a physician. I am often amused by the great concern shown to lower a moderate fever by lay people, nurses and even most other MDs. Any temperature less than 105 is not generally harmful to humans (exceptions occur). The elevated temperature is not of great concern.

BUT it is usually a sysmptom of great concern.

So with women's headcovering. In and of itself wether a woman covers her head is, in most cases, of little import...BUT... the amazing speed and thoroughness with which women headcoverings disapeared is a very important symptom. A symptom of accomodation to the world, of rebellion from the God-ordained authority, and of fashion over simple obedience.

I think we would have more honest people in churches were they to see that, like those early Christians, we are DIFFERENT than the world. Not different just to be different, but different in simple obedience to Scripture.

In attracting people by accomodation, the Church will lose out to Starbucks everytime.

JR

Excellent commentary, JR.
This is something that has weighed heavy on my heart for some time now. We are so engrained into our culture that sometimes we even claim our "right" to it, above simple obedience to Scripture. Following Christ is not about living a comfortable, happy life and it certainly is not about claiming our rights to certain things. It is about willingness to give everything up for Christ's sake.
Western culture is so foreign to the culture of Biblical times (and even more so to the concepts of humility, sacrifice, and submission), that I think it really can hinder us in many ways.
It has become a personal goal of mine to re-examine what I've been taught as a child about Scripture, because so much of it is clearly tainted by current day, worldly thought. I want to see the world through the eyes of Scripture, not Scripture through the eyes of my culture. A life-long journey, no doubt.

 

[MrJim]

The woman's hair is a natural covering.


1 Corinthians 11:15
But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

...but if hair is the covering, how do men take it off to pray ?

(used to be mennonite~heard all the arguments )

 

[joyfulthanks]

As to whether or not people need to feel comfortable in our services in order for us to reach the lost, I would respond with an example from the book of Acts:

Acts 5:12a-14
and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s portico. But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem. And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number,


As for the issue of headcovering itself, I simply can't see the cultural-only, it-doesn't-apply-today argument. Paul appeals to the order of creation as the reason for doing this. That's not a cultural issue, but something that goes back to God's original purpose and design in creating man and woman differently. Though we are all one in Christ, it does not cancel God's initial design for male and female.

Headcovering is an outward recognition of the fact that we are not the same, and that there is a created order which God instituted between men and women that we must respect.

I must admit, I haven't been bold enough to be the only woman in our congregation to cover my head. Nor does my husband want me to. So, as of now, I don't cover - except often when I pray privately. But honestly, I would like to cover in public.