The violent truths not taught in Sunday School

[MissiA]

Some quotes from the Bible, which paint an interesting picture of God and the Christian religion.
Why are these quotes and teachings not adhered to and revered?
They are, after all, God's word, like the rest of the Bible, much of which is closely adhered to and revered.
My point is this; do the below quotes sound good, or evil?

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)

"Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:16-18)

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ######." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

"And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter." (I Samuel 6:19)

"And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'" (Numbers 25:3-4)

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)

"Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts; and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face, and I will shew the nations thy nakedness, and the kingdoms thy shame. And I will cast abominable filth upon thee, and make the vile, and will set thee as gazingstock." (Nahum 3:5-6)

"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. A ###### shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD." (Deuteronomy 23:1-2)

"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters so a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods." (Exodus 34:14-16)

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." (Exodus 15:3)
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalms 137:9, KJV)
"Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again." (Psalms 140:10)

If you read the above without knowing the quotes were from the Bible, would you believe the quotes to be good, or disturbing and evil?

 

[mont974x4]

Keep them in context, especially with God's character of justice and righteousnes.

 

[Fireinfolding]

These sorts of things are always brought up and often by others not understanding the way He speaks. A woman with child is a "spiritual truth" Jesus speaks of "being delivered OF a child" that a man be born. And men are actually shown travailing with child because its a "spiritual truth"...

Jerm 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

Infants (even babes) can be shown as full grown men even as Paul shows it, not only that an "infant" of an hundred years is shown after a similitude found in Abraham (hid in Christ). Hosea says God hath spoken by the prophets multiplying visions and USED SIMILITUDES. Yet spelling these out for those who cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God which teaches by comparing "SPIRITUAL things with SPIRITUAL" is rather foolish.

If we look at Peter who had to receive a vision three times concerning "rise KILL and EAT" he saw "foods" (in the lowered sheet). Three times this was shown to him (he didnt "get it"). He had to think on THE VISION because it was never about killing foods (creepy things and fourfooted beasts) but THE GENTILES themselves and when Peter finally "got it" you dont see him rising TO LITERALLY KILL THEM.

Take the words... "Unto us A CHILD is born and Unto us A SON is given finds its twofold fulfilment in Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be **no more** thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for ***the child*** shall die ***an hundred years old***; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Gen 21:5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

The law pertains to "the Child" (under it) Christ IS the End of the law that the promise (shown in Isaac) in Christ be made sure. These are "pictures" which often times "offend" our minds (even our carnal minds).

These similitudes (and what they mean) are expounded in Christ (In Whom they are hid). These are even seen on the cross itself in their paterns. Though I have great difficulty sharing Christ by revelation.

Lets take "David's child" who was struck sick of the LORD because of Davids deed (though his sin was taken away) and the Lamb of God (does exactly this).

To put to death a child for the sins of the father is a direct violation of

Duet 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

This too can be further expounded in Jesus Christ who himself bear our sicknesses and diseases (our sins) and on the cross. OURS had to become HIS

Jesus is called "the Holy Child" in Acts

2Sam 12:15 the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

Ever notice that Davids "reaction" is non typical of an earthly parent (after their child died)? It is a similitude speaking of Christ to Whom the book bares witness to (and of which He was to "fulfill). These confirmed "elsewhere" by the prophets who (by them) God USED SIMILITUDES.

Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Luke 4:23 Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself

Awake O SWORD is against HIS SHEPHERD

He that knew no sin was MADE SIN that WE might be the righteousness of God IN Him.

Little ones, how LITTLE are they?

Zach 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

This is fulfilled in Mat 26, but is showing these things are summed up in Christ

Psalm 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think eternal ye have life: and they are they which testify of me.

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Psalm 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

These spake of Him in various ways...

Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God ***to conceal*** a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Which "thing" could be "hid"?

Luke 1:35 The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born **of thee** shall be called the Son of God.

Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

and this speaks to Christ IN YOU is the hope of Glory where God "opens His good treasure" unto you. As in Mary is found a similitude of "the many" concerning the sword that would peirce her soul does.

Until your very familiar with the similitudes and God pours out His Spirit unto you to make His words known to you. They will be (as it is written) "foolishness" to our natural mindenedness. They speak of the similitude of the Lord. In Whom are HID all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge HID. Its also near impossible to "order them up" or share them as clearly as we would like because all that which is encompassed in Him is too much to order but is constantly being "opened up".

I wrote this more for others benefits because I wouldnt expect you to understand any of this save God quicken a thing.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[MissiA]

First off, you seem to have missed my point; that looking at these quotes from a non-religious point of view, what would you think of them then?
You say that because they are from the mouth of God makes them okay somehow.
I find it interesting that just because God is God it makes it okay for him to order and commit acts that even the worst megalomaniac on Earth would not commit.
I was brought up in a Christian family, and have great respect for many of the Christian ideals, yet I am not Christian because I will not allow such scripture to be justified.

Where is the justice and righteousness in the quote,

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)

How is that just or right? No matter what a person or nation's sins are, is that a deserving punishment?

Or,fireinfolding, you focused on the subject of what classifies children/infants/little ones. Does that mean you think Isaiah 13: 15-16, with its talk of mass rape and murder is a fitting and good punishment?

And what of this Psalm, what exactly is it defining here?

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalms 137:9, KJV)

Again, the point I"m trying to make is to get you to think about the unpleasantness in the Old Testament, a book of rape, murder, incest and harsh rules, packaged with the very different New Testament.
One is quite honestly, atrocious, barbaric and horrifying, the other an expression of love and mercy.

All I am saying, is not to minimise the horrors of the Old Testament, and try and justify it.
If you follow something, you should also feel free to question it, and see it for what it really is.
There is nothing worse than blind trust in a leader/deity, as we saw with much of the American public in the years following 9/11.

Think.

Missi~Amphetamine

 

[Fireinfolding]

MA, you are actually proving His words true and not even realizing it in the way you will naturally recieve them.

It is not given to me to argue with anyone MA. You dont really understand what your reading (or doing) when you want to condemn Gods justice.

I've been thinking on His words (and only His) for 20 years devoting (on average) 15 hours (or more) daily to them and He does not say for nothing...

Prov 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: ((( behold ))) I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

This "indicates" (to the reader) that something remains hidden to us concerning them, yet theres something "He" is willing to do about that (unto you).

Theres way too many verses (similiarly) meant to "correct" our vision in turning at His reproof (which scriptures are for) yet its His Spirit (inspiration) which would be poured out unto you "to understand". This then would make you able to know them in a completely different light then what we "first see".

*I know* because for my first years I butted up against them too (not much unlike yourself). So if you think I was not brought through the same way you are ( being naturally minded) where nothing made much sense (to me either) at one time, your mistaken. His first miracle in Canaan expresses a miracle that occurs "in us" when the water of words is transformed into wine, even life and Spirit.

When you first taste the "change of flavor" in you, you become aware of "when" your not understanding a thing and when He (Himself) makes something known to you. This is "ongoing" and not with a God who is dead but the Living God Himself.

But I cannot argue, I'm not allowed to MA, Im to post and leave and not to tend to doubtful disputations.

Why not "prove" these things out (as best as you are able) as the same words are used interchangeably elsewhere in scripture? Rather then jump to conclusion of an "unfair" God why not rather approach it (first) believing He is just and asking Him to reveal Himself to you?

Is anything too hard for God?

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[HypnoToad]

First off, you seem to have missed my point; that looking at these quotes from a non-religious point of view, what would you think of them then?

emphasis added

If you have to make your point by taking them out of context, then it's not much of a point.

You say that because they are from the mouth of God makes them okay somehow.
I find it interesting that just because God is God it makes it okay for him to order and commit acts that even the worst megalomaniac on Earth would not commit.

Also interesting is you seem to think God has no more authority than anyone else.

 

[beamishboy]

As you can imagine, I still live with my parents. Naturally. I ask them questions that arise in my mind about God and the Bible. The usual answer they give is God is almighty and sovereign. He has the authority to kill. You don't question his motive.

If he chose to kill infants and women when he gets his people to conquer Jericho or Ai or one of these pagan states, we should just say that he is merciful and loving.

We are also told that people who don't believe in Jesus because they have another religious system will not have eternal life. Many think they will be tortured for all eternity. John Stott came up with a merciful way out for them. But it's still tough luck for those born in non-Christian families.

But as I grow older with each passing day, I find the whole thing quite unacceptable. How can I continue to pretend that God is loving and merciful when the Bible tells me otherwise?

My only way out is to accept that God is loving and merciful but the Bible got it wrong. I've been reading about the Canon of the Bible and how we got our 66 books and boy, it really is shocking! The early Christians didn't accept it the way we do now. John Calvin and Martin Luther didn't look at the Bible the way we do now either.

 

[mont974x4]

Why do you think God told His people to wipe out those cities completely?


If I am out in the woods and a mountain lion or bear threatens the well being of my sons, I will shoot it.

How much more will our Heavenly Father do for the well being of His children?

 

[beamishboy]

Why do you think God told His people to wipe out those cities completely?

The usual answer I get to that question is God does not want his people to go a-whoring with other gods. He wants to keep the Israelites pure so that Jesus can be born in an unadulterated line.

But when I read the Bible, the reason given seems different. God wants the Israelites to conquer Jericho because he is giving the city to them. It's conquest of land, pure and simple. The Israelites were just doing what the other nomadic tribes were doing in those days. Destroy a city and kill all their inhabitants. Except that the Israelites put the blame squarely on God's shoulders. God told them to do it.

 

[mont974x4]

The usual answer I get to that question is God does not want his people to go a-whoring with other gods. He wants to keep the Israelites pure so that Jesus can be born in an unadulterated line.

But when I read the Bible, the reason given seems different. God wants the Israelites to conquer Jericho because he is giving the city to them. It's conquest of land, pure and simple. The Israelites were just doing what the other nomadic tribes were doing in those days. Destroy a city and kill all their inhabitants. Except that the Israelites put the blame squarely on God's shoulders. God told them to do it.

It's sort of both.
1. Because God is jealous and doesn't want His kids being led astray by false gods.
2. God promised that land to Israel and told them to go in and take it. They were obedient, at times. Look at what happened when they disobeyed God.

 

[beamishboy]

It's sort of both.
1. Because God is jealous and doesn't want His kids being led astray by false gods.
2. God promised that land to Israel and told them to go in and take it. They were obedient, at times. Look at what happened when they disobeyed God.

Would you call such a God loving and merciful? Would you have ordered the murder of children and infants asleep in the city of Jericho?

When the Israelites later began to lose in battles, God told them to draw lots and it zoomed in on one man who reportedly stole the loot from Ai when God told them to destroy everything. God commanded Israel to stone the thief and his whole family. That included children and infants younger than myself. Would you have done that? Can you call a God who did that merciful and loving?

For 12 years of my life, I tried to pretend God was loving. When I turned 13 just a few days ago, I decided enough was enough. By then I had just read a few books on the canon of scriptures and I discovered that there was little justification for the inerrancy of the Bible dogma. So now, where God is being maligned in the Bible, I refuse to accept those parts of the Bible. I may take it that what I'm reading is merely Israelite war propaganda but not God's word. It's a drastic step but I can't have my cake and eat it. Either I accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God and take God to be an unloving and cruel bully or I have to accept that there are serious problems with the Bible, its transmission down the ages and even the selection of the books to form the canon and so God is not the ogre it sometimes makes him out to be.

 

[mont974x4]

God is also righteous and just and it's a dangerous thing to be in the hands of His wrath.

I would suggest reading the Bible again, cover to cover, and asking God to help you set aside your own ideas and help you to be open to His truth and what the Bible really says.

 

[beamishboy]

God is also righteous and just and it's a dangerous thing to be in the hands of His wrath.

I would suggest reading the Bible again, cover to cover, and asking God to help you set aside your own ideas and help you to be open to His truth and what the Bible really says.

Thanks for your suggestion. I know you mean well and I'm grateful for it but I don't think it will work. I've tried it before. If I read the Bible from cover to cover, I'm bound to come across loads of problems. I'll just name some of them:-

1. God sacked Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden because they ate the forbidden fruit. The Bible tells us that they were deceived by the serpent. A deceived person is a victim, not a criminal. Besides, Adam and Eve were not equipped to handle the wiles of the serpent. The Bible tells us their eyes weren't even opened (they were only opened when they ate the fruit). They did not even know right from wrong.

2. For merely eating the fruit, Adam and Eve are condemned to a punishment beyond their minor error, should the blame go to God? He created some innocent person with no knowledge of good and evil (the forbidden fruit gave them the knowledge of good and evil); He failed to protect them from the DECEPTION of the serpent and then he punished them.

3. Even if the punishment meted out to Adam and Eve was just, can the sin of Adam be visited on his descendants as original sin? Won't we be shocked if any country in this civilised world were to punish the children of offenders?

4. But punishing the children of offenders seems to be fashionable for God as recorded in the Bible. That's what God did to the thief of the Ai loot (see Joshua). Not only was the thief stoned to death but his whole family with him.

Now that I'm on this subject of the excessive cruelty and incredible carnage ordered by God, you know I can go on and on - the Bible is full of such examples. You asked me to ask God to set aside my own ideas. But I'm not adding anything to what I read in the Bible. How else can I read the Bible. Am I wrong about the above?

There are many other examples that are too painful for me to even repeat here. Examples include Moses ordering his men (after consulting God of course) to kill all the male pagans (I forget which group this was - Amorites or Hittites or some other ___ites) but as for the female children, they could do whatever they please with them. I don't have my Bible with me now but if you don't believe me, let me know and I'll give you the exact verses. I used to think God meant the young girls should be punished but now that I'm reading books on puberty, I understand more. The gravity of God's command to Moses becomes incredible.

We read about Isaac being almost sacrificed to God and the Epistle of Hebrews tells us it shows us Abraham's faith. But what does that show us of God? What trauma did Isaac go through? How did Abraham and his family felt? Did God consider all this? Was it even necessary for God to conduct such a cruel test if he claims to be omniscient and could tell the extent of Abraham's faith in the first place?

We read about another human sacrifice in the Bible that didn't turn out so well for the poor victim. I don't have my Bible with me but if you don't believe me, I'll give you the exact reference. Some general while committing the usual carnage against some defenceless race told God that he would sacrifice the first thing he saw when he got home. God made him win the battle and he went home and saw his daughter. God didn't stop him this time unlike the last time when Isaac was about to be sacrificed.

I can go on but I have to go to school now. I know you mean well but I really don't know how else to make out of the Bible. I used to think I was too young to understand the Bible but now that I've just become a teenager, I get this niggling suspicion that the words in the Bible that tell us how horrid God is will still remain the same when I'm 63.

I don't want the blasphemous and libellous parts of the Bible to make me think ill of God and so I have to see the Bible for what it really is.

 

[CShephard53]

Some quotes from the Bible, which paint an interesting picture of God and the Christian religion.
Why are these quotes and teachings not adhered to and revered?
They are, after all, God's word, like the rest of the Bible, much of which is closely adhered to and revered.
My point is this; do the below quotes sound good, or evil?

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)

"Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:16-18)

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ######." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

"And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter." (I Samuel 6:19)

"And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'" (Numbers 25:3-4)

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)

"Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts; and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face, and I will shew the nations thy nakedness, and the kingdoms thy shame. And I will cast abominable filth upon thee, and make the vile, and will set thee as gazingstock." (Nahum 3:5-6)

"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. A ###### shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD." (Deuteronomy 23:1-2)

"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters so a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods." (Exodus 34:14-16)

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." (Exodus 15:3)
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalms 137:9, KJV)
"Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again." (Psalms 140:10)

If you read the above without knowing the quotes were from the Bible, would you believe the quotes to be good, or disturbing and evil?

Let me know when you want to put those in their contexts, and when you want to show an objective source for calling said actions evil.

 

[CShephard53]

Thanks for your suggestion. I know you mean well and I'm grateful for it but I don't think it will work. I've tried it before. If I read the Bible from cover to cover, I'm bound to come across loads of problems. I'll just name some of them:-

1. God sacked Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden because they ate the forbidden fruit. The Bible tells us that they were deceived by the serpent. A deceived person is a victim, not a criminal. Besides, Adam and Eve were not equipped to handle the wiles of the serpent. The Bible tells us their eyes weren't even opened (they were only opened when they ate the fruit). They did not even know right from wrong.

2. For merely eating the fruit, Adam and Eve are condemned to a punishment beyond their minor error, should the blame go to God? He created some innocent person with no knowledge of good and evil (the forbidden fruit gave them the knowledge of good and evil); He failed to protect them from the DECEPTION of the serpent and then he punished them.

3. Even if the punishment meted out to Adam and Eve was just, can the sin of Adam be visited on his descendants as original sin? Won't we be shocked if any country in this civilised world were to punish the children of offenders?

4. But punishing the children of offenders seems to be fashionable for God as recorded in the Bible. That's what God did to the thief of the Ai loot (see Joshua). Not only was the thief stoned to death but his whole family with him.

Now that I'm on this subject of the excessive cruelty and incredible carnage ordered by God, you know I can go on and on - the Bible is full of such examples. You asked me to ask God to set aside my own ideas. But I'm not adding anything to what I read in the Bible. How else can I read the Bible. Am I wrong about the above?

There are many other examples that are too painful for me to even repeat here. Examples include Moses ordering his men (after consulting God of course) to kill all the male pagans (I forget which group this was - Amorites or Hittites or some other ___ites) but as for the female children, they could do whatever they please with them. I don't have my Bible with me now but if you don't believe me, let me know and I'll give you the exact verses. I used to think God meant the young girls should be punished but now that I'm reading books on puberty, I understand more. The gravity of God's command to Moses becomes incredible.

We read about Isaac being almost sacrificed to God and the Epistle of Hebrews tells us it shows us Abraham's faith. But what does that show us of God? What trauma did Isaac go through? How did Abraham and his family felt? Did God consider all this? Was it even necessary for God to conduct such a cruel test if he claims to be omniscient and could tell the extent of Abraham's faith in the first place?

We read about another human sacrifice in the Bible that didn't turn out so well for the poor victim. I don't have my Bible with me but if you don't believe me, I'll give you the exact reference. Some general while committing the usual carnage against some defenceless race told God that he would sacrifice the first thing he saw when he got home. God made him win the battle and he went home and saw his daughter. God didn't stop him this time unlike the last time when Isaac was about to be sacrificed.

I can go on but I have to go to school now. I know you mean well but I really don't know how else to make out of the Bible. I used to think I was too young to understand the Bible but now that I've just become a teenager, I get this niggling suspicion that the words in the Bible that tell us how horrid God is will still remain the same when I'm 63.

I don't want the blasphemous and libellous parts of the Bible to make me think ill of God and so I have to see the Bible for what it really is.

Go to 'serious stuff' in teens, and go to 'what do you think of this mindset?' and read the debate that's been raging. Then come back to us with this view.

 

[beamishboy]

Go to 'serious stuff' in teens, and go to 'what do you think of this mindset?' and read the debate that's been raging. Then come back to us with this view.

Does that sound rather patronising or am I being over-sensitive?

Forget my age and treat me on an equal footing. If I were less than totally honest, I could have posted a false age for myself and you'd be none the wiser.

Anyway, your posts are characteristically a one-liner with no substance. You dismiss an argument without considering the facts and without giving any concrete counter-argument. If you want a lesson on how to debate effectively, send me a private message.

 

[mont974x4]

1. Adam and Eve knew what was right and what was not right. God told them they could eat whatever they want with the one exception. They chose for themselves.

2. God does not force us to obey. He gave us choices to make. He did not want robots with blind allegiance.

3 and 4. The sins of the father infect the children. How often do we see divorced parents have kids who later divorce? Drunk parents having drunk kids? Racist parents having racist kids?


I understand your struggle. A few years ago I completely walked away from my faith and went so far as to deny the existance of God. I had a hard time when I came home from combat with understanding why God, if He really existed, would allow the things I saw to happen. A lot of people prayed for me, for years, and I kept having this nagging in my heart and mind that I was wrong. It was when I sat down and read cover to cover asking Him to show me His truth, show me His character, show me why He commanded the things you are now having issues with and why He allows genocide to happen today. I was painting God into a corner and my own preconcieved ideas were getting in the way of my learning of Him.


I have been in your shoes, brother.

Jay

 

[beamishboy]

1. Adam and Eve knew what was right and what was not right. God told them they could eat whatever they want with the one exception. They chose for themselves.

2. God does not force us to obey. He gave us choices to make. He did not want robots with blind allegiance.

3 and 4. The sins of the father infect the children. How often do we see divorced parents have kids who later divorce? Drunk parents having drunk kids? Racist parents having racist kids?


I understand your struggle. A few years ago I completely walked away from my faith and went so far as to deny the existance of God. I had a hard time when I came home from combat with understanding why God, if He really existed, would allow the things I saw to happen. A lot of people prayed for me, for years, and I kept having this nagging in my heart and mind that I was wrong. It was when I sat down and read cover to cover asking Him to show me His truth, show me His character, show me why He commanded the things you are now having issues with and why He allows genocide to happen today. I was painting God into a corner and my own preconcieved ideas were getting in the way of my learning of Him.


I have been in your shoes, brother.

Jay

Hi, thanks for your kindness. Although I may not agree with you on the Bible, you exhibit the love which according to our Lord distinguishes true believers from fake ones. I'm really grateful.

 

[mont974x4]

Be grateful you didn't meet me a few years ago. Christ has done a lot of work in me.

 

[CShephard53]

Does that sound rather patronising or am I being over-sensitive?

Forget my age and treat me on an equal footing. If I were less than totally honest, I could have posted a false age for myself and you'd be none the wiser.

Anyway, your posts are characteristically a one-liner with no substance. You dismiss an argument without considering the facts and without giving any concrete counter-argument. If you want a lesson on how to debate effectively, send me a private message.

If I'm being patronizing I'll let you know. I was commenting on the number of holes in your statements, which I'll get into, seeing as I'm just going to repeat myself anyway. Lessons on how to debate from someone just over half my age? That's a laugh. You want debate? Chew on this for a bit:

1. God sacked Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden because they ate the forbidden fruit. The Bible tells us that they were deceived by the serpent. A deceived person is a victim, not a criminal. Besides, Adam and Eve were not equipped to handle the wiles of the serpent. The Bible tells us their eyes weren't even opened (they were only opened when they ate the fruit). They did not even know right from wrong.

God was very clear in what He told them. They chose to do otherwise, at the suggestion of another. So tell me- if your buddies talk you into killing someone- does that mean you're not guilty of murder?

2. For merely eating the fruit, Adam and Eve are condemned to a punishment beyond their minor error, should the blame go to God? He created some innocent person with no knowledge of good and evil (the forbidden fruit gave them the knowledge of good and evil); He failed to protect them from the DECEPTION of the serpent and then he punished them.

God gave them a command. Genesis 2:16-17. Just because they didn't have knowledge of good and evil did not mean they did not have convictions that it would be bad to do something they were told not to do. They were given a reason, a pretty clear reason for not eating of it and they did anyway. If you wanted a better argument you might go with something along the lines of God's foreknowledge, that argument gets interesting.

3. Even if the punishment meted out to Adam and Eve was just, can the sin of Adam be visited on his descendants as original sin? Won't we be shocked if any country in this civilised world were to punish the children of offenders?

We wouldn't be shocked to see evidence of their offenses in their children, would we? And if that evidence leads the children to sin (not in the same way, mind you, but sin nonetheless, like lie or something) that is something we'd punish them for- even if it was indirectly caused by someone else's sin.

4. But punishing the children of offenders seems to be fashionable for God as recorded in the Bible. That's what God did to the thief of the Ai loot (see Joshua). Not only was the thief stoned to death but his whole family with him.

First, I'll ask for references. But I believe that Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death... if that's the case, then that alone condemned them- it was just sooner than most. I fail to see how this is unfair, especially by biblical standards.

Now that I'm on this subject of the excessive cruelty and incredible carnage ordered by God, you know I can go on and on - the Bible is full of such examples. You asked me to ask God to set aside my own ideas. But I'm not adding anything to what I read in the Bible. How else can I read the Bible. Am I wrong about the above?

I've just shown you to be in part, of course, without verse references I can't do much else. However, you call it 'cruel', yet in doing so you are doing the very thing you are claiming not to do- subjecting the Bible to your own ideas.

There are many other examples that are too painful for me to even repeat here. Examples include Moses ordering his men (after consulting God of course) to kill all the male pagans (I forget which group this was - Amorites or Hittites or some other ___ites) but as for the female children, they could do whatever they please with them. I don't have my Bible with me now but if you don't believe me, let me know and I'll give you the exact verses. I used to think God meant the young girls should be punished but now that I'm reading books on puberty, I understand more. The gravity of God's command to Moses becomes incredible.

Too painful? More subjection to your opinions. Do you understand the times they were in? What their hearts were like? The eventual good that would come and did come (Jesus' coming, for example)? You show no regard for culture here, only your own opinions about it.

We read about Isaac being almost sacrificed to God and the Epistle of Hebrews tells us it shows us Abraham's faith. But what does that show us of God? What trauma did Isaac go through? How did Abraham and his family felt? Did God consider all this? Was it even necessary for God to conduct such a cruel test if he claims to be omniscient and could tell the extent of Abraham's faith in the first place?

How do you know the test was just for God's information? You dubb it cruel without even considering the results. Do you honestly think that people grow through easy times? No, I'd hope not. Otherwise you'd be ignoring passages like James 1:2-4.

We read about another human sacrifice in the Bible that didn't turn out so well for the poor victim. I don't have my Bible with me but if you don't believe me, I'll give you the exact reference. Some general while committing the usual carnage against some defenceless race told God that he would sacrifice the first thing he saw when he got home. God made him win the battle and he went home and saw his daughter. God didn't stop him this time unlike the last time when Isaac was about to be sacrificed.

He's the one the made the vow, he carried it out. God didn't have much to do with it, other than to point out how stupid his choice of words was. He could have said something like 'I'll sacrifice the best lamb I have' or something, but instead it was the first thing he saw. How is it cruel to show the error of one's words? Does the worker who impulsively quit get his job back because he was rash in his words? We live in the real world.

I can go on but I have to go to school now. I know you mean well but I really don't know how else to make out of the Bible. I used to think I was too young to understand the Bible but now that I've just become a teenager, I get this niggling suspicion that the words in the Bible that tell us how horrid God is will still remain the same when I'm 63.

All you've done here is show us how horrid you think God is.

I don't want the blasphemous and libellous parts of the Bible to make me think ill of God and so I have to see the Bible for what it really is.

Additional claims, but you've not provided anything except subjective claims to back them.

I don't look down on you. I look down on the claims that I've seen lately that are just like the one's you have given us that give nothing except subjective claims for reasoning for how 'evil' God is, and I'm quite tired of it. If you have objective reasons, I'd love to hear them. But simply saying something about something doesn't make it true. Surely as someone who has offered to give me a lesson in debate you'll understand that. I'd love to concede that a 13 year old guy is brilliant, and you've certainly shown us that you're not an idiot. In fact, you are probably the brightest 13 year old I've seen in terms of writing (assuming that's really how old you are, of course). But in order to be brilliant you'd have to be able to back your claims, and I've not seen you do that yet.