The Flood

[Naraoia]

Type, Number Dated, Method, .................................Age (billionsof years)
[technical expressions]

Stop that ostentation NOW

 

[thaumaturgy]

I hope you do find the time to expain this to me, as the massive contradictions between OT and NT is certainly one of the reasons I began to doubt christianity in the first place. I find it impossible to reconcile new with old, and so there is only one inescapable conclusion for me: neither is correct.

This is a good question and Inan has started a good discussion and explanation over in GA.

But I think it bears fleshing out a salient point to this discussion that hinges on this.

The question is proposed: if Grace is now in effect is Law superceded? Good question, and clearly one that many feel strongly about both ways. What is our source of information to answer this key question? The Bible.

I like to think of this just like a scientific study. Whether I'm looking for the age of the earth, or the way the earth came to look as it does, or if there's a Global Flood that occurred at some point, if I rely on the Bible then I am able to draw some conclusions.

It is later when the overwhelming mass of science that comes to bear that we have to modify the way the bible is read and understood. In other words, the Bible provided no useful information and in fact had to be re-interpretted to match up with the hard data.

But we get into really dodgy areas when discussing things like Law vs Fulfillment of the Law or Law vs. Grace.

Many theologians make a reasonable point that Jesus "fulfilled" the law, but Jesus couches his statements in terms of heaven and earth passing away before the law is rendered obsolete. In some instances he indicates he will return in glory very soon, making this all fit well. But there are many interpretations of that as well.

Possibly most damaging to the arguments some might make that the Law is no longer in effect are the early pre-orthodox debates that raged in the very earliest christian communities. Paul and Peter, or the Ebionites, or the Jerusalem church.

What we can get a picture of is the need, as seen by Paul and others, to expand the faith, and since adult male circumcision is a hard sell, and since many gentiles liked to be able to eat certain things, pushing a religion that required the acceptance of restrictive laws is a harder job.

But I don't think Paul pushed that for that reason alone, necessarily. Indeed spiritual truth should supercede any sort of goofy dietary laws. We see it every day in all manner of liberalization movements within any and all religions. People, after a time, as they grow into adulthood, realize that, for them, spiritual "satisfaction" no longer comes just from keeping the meat utensils from the dairy utensils.

But, I think, the fact that these various debates arise and have arisen since the inception of the religion itself, tells us that the words of the Bible can be interpretted in a number of different ways.

And that is why it is difficult or nearly impossible to use the Bible as a tool for understanding science, if the spiritual dogma is not crystal clear, how good can it do as a science book where explicit crystal clarity is considered a prerequisite?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Stop that ostentation NOW

Oh my! You're right! I was being overly ostentatious!

Just look at these ostenatious folks! (To be honest, this is exactly what I'm like at home too. My wife and I dress up in our lab coats, and stand around the oven discusing heat flux and the appropriate means to calculate the energy necessary to complete the cooking process. My wife, of course, would be more like one of those without the mustache.)

"What's for dinner dear?"
"Oh, I thought I'd just thaw out some proteinaceous material from the entropic disfavorable-box."
"Very good! I highly recommend you obtain the mass of the proteinaceous material while I ready the FTIR to ascertain the nature of the chemical bonds."
"Excellent, honey. Oh, yes, and please preheat the exothermic box so that the heat flux will be more favorable to an even cooking process!"
"So how was your day?"
"You know, the offspring units were more than a handful today."
"Ah, perhaps you need to put them into a glovebox and handle them with manipulators!"
"hahahahaha! Yes!"

So it's hard for me to get out of "ostentation mode".

 

[Naraoia]

"What's for dinner dear?"
"Oh, I thought I'd just thaw out some proteinaceous material from the entropic disfavorable-box."
"Very good! I highly recommend you obtain the mass of the proteinaceous material while I ready the FTIR to ascertain the nature of the chemical bonds."
"Excellent, honey. Oh, yes, and please preheat the exothermic box so that the heat flux will be more favorable to an even cooking process!"
"So how was your day?"
"You know, the offspring units were more than a handful today."
"Ah, perhaps you need to put them into a glovebox and handle them with manipulators!"
"hahahahaha! Yes!"

So it's hard for me to get out of "ostentation mode".

Stop stop STOP you're killing me!

 

[AV1611VET]

"Ah, perhaps you need to put them into a glovebox and handle them with manipulators!"

I hope that wasn't a reference to the Skinner Box.

 

[NailsII]

I've finally answered your question but I took it over to General Apologetics to spare everyone here for it really is way off topic and quite lengthy.

Thank you. I look forward to joining it shortly.

So see, I really am a nice person.

Never doubted it for a moment, but I bet a few have...

If any one is interested...?

http://foru.ms/t6386533-which-way-to-righteousness-law-or-grace.html#post40496601

How do I make this link shorter?

Sorry, don't know.

What makes you think I am younger, I could be really old you know. I am young but you don't know how young or how old.

I didn't say you were younger (although i accept that is a logical conclusion from my comments) and I don't know how old you are at all.
i merely tried to assert that you have an opinion, based on all the evidence you need, and you are goingto stick to it.
i used to be like that, but not any more.
And that does make me feel old, but I'm not really....

 

[Servant222]

O.K. just to bring this thread up to the front AND BACK ON TRACK, here is a verse I had never noticed before- until it came up on BibleGateway's Verse of the Day.

2 Peter 3

5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.

Does this not suggest that the Biblical flood might not have been world-wide, but instead was limited to the world of that time- namely, the Mediterranean basin?

This would fit in very well with the well-documented Mediterranean flood, which overwhelmed the entire basin many thousands of years ago- there is an excellent account of this at the following site: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Bible-Science/PSCF12-97Morton.html

 

[MrGoodBytes]

O.K. just to bring this thread up to the front AND BACK ON TRACK, here is a verse I had never noticed before- until it came up on BibleGateway's Verse of the Day.

2 Peter 3

5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.

Does this not suggest that the Biblical flood might not have been world-wide, but instead was limited to the world of that time- namely, the Mediterranean basin?

This would fit in very well with the well-documented Mediterranean flood, which overwhelmed the entire basin many thousands of years ago- there is an excellent account of this at the following site: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Bible-Science/PSCF12-97Morton.html

That is interesting indeed. Good catch!

 

[Vene]

O.K. just to bring this thread up to the front AND BACK ON TRACK, here is a verse I had never noticed before- until it came up on BibleGateway's Verse of the Day.

2 Peter 3

5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.

Does this not suggest that the Biblical flood might not have been world-wide, but instead was limited to the world of that time- namely, the Mediterranean basin?

This would fit in very well with the well-documented Mediterranean flood, which overwhelmed the entire basin many thousands of years ago- there is an excellent account of this at the following site: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Bible-Science/PSCF12-97Morton.html

This seems about right. A large flood in the Mediterranean region would fit quite well. The problem is that there is no way there was a global flood x thousand years ago.

 

[tanzanos]

I find it hard to believe that all the human races are direct descendants of Noah's family, (Talk about incestuous orgies, must pale even the wildest of roman orgies).
Not to mention that this is the second time incest has been responsible for the existence of the human race. (Adam and his son bonking Eve, and Noah and his sons Bonking the females of the family)
Isn't Incest condemned by Christianity?
Something is very wrong with this religion.

Thank god my ancestors were apes!

 

[Steezie]

My fiancee did a calculation of what it would take to flood the Earth, turns out, its impossible

Lock and load!

The United Nations Environment Programme estimates there are 1.4 billion cubic kilometres (330 million mi3) of water available on Earth. Including underground sources.

The highest point on the surface of the Earth is Mount Everest in Nepal. 8,848 meters tall (29,028 feet)

The mean radius of the Earth (Core to sea level) is 6,372,797 meters. With Everest added to that, it comes out to 6,381,645 meters.

The total mass of the hydrosphere of the oceans is about 1.4 × 1021 kilograms, which is about 0.023% of the Earth's total mass.

The volume of the earth in-between the highest and lowest points on earth assuming that the ENTIRE surface is flooded WITH landmasses accounted for is 5x105

Avalible- 1.4 billion cubic kilometers
Needed (To cover the ENTIRE surface)- 5 quadrillion cubic kilometers
Missing- 4.9999986 quadrillion cubic kilometers.

We would need probably nine or ten orders of magnitude more water than we actually have avalible. Even if there were a couple billion cubic kilometers hiding under the surface of the Earth, we would even BEGIN to have enough.

To have that much water on Earth would disrupt the gravity of the Earth and SERIOUSLY mess with the tripple point of water which would result in the death of all life as we know it.

As you see, it it mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for the ENTIRE surface of the Earth to be covered with water.

 

[Vene]

Good post Steezie, but the people that believe in a global flood also believe in magic. Little things like facts rarely get in the way.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

O.K. just to bring this thread up to the front AND BACK ON TRACK, here is a verse I had never noticed before- until it came up on BibleGateway's Verse of the Day.

2 Peter 3

5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.

Interesting. I prefer the reading direct from the Greek text though:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

2 Peter 3:5 For is being oblivious of them, this willing, that heavens were of old and land out of water and thru water having together-stood/joined to the of the God word.
6 thru which the then world to water being deluged, was destroyed.

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm
Tex-Rec taken from here:

2 Peter 3:5 lanqanei <2990> (5719) {IS BEING OBLIVIOUS} gar <1063> {FOR} autouV <846> {OF THEM} touto <5124> {THIS]} qelontaV <2309> (5723) {WILLING,} oti <3754> {THAT} ouranoi <3772> {HEAVENS} hsan <2258> (5713) {WERE} ekpalai <1597> {OUT OLD,} kai <2532> {AND} gh <1093> {LAND} ex <1537> {OUT OF} udatoV <5204> {WATER} kai <2532> {AND} di <1223> {BY/THRU} udatoV <5204> {WATER} sunestwsa <4921> (5761) {TOGETHER-STADING,} tw <3588> {TO THE} tou <3588> {OF THE} qeou <2316> {GOD} logw <3056> {WORD,}
2 Peter 3:6 di <1223> {THRU/BY} wn <3739> {WHICH} o <3588> {THE} tote <5119> {THEN} kosmoV <2889> {WORLD} udati <5204> {TO WATER} kataklusqeiV <2626> (5685) {ACCORDINGING-DELUGED} apwleto <622> (5639) {PERISHED.}

 

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

My fiancee did a calculation of what it would take to flood the Earth, turns out, its impossible

Lock and load!

The United Nations Environment Programme estimates there are 1.4 billion cubic kilometres (330 million mi3) of water available on Earth. Including underground sources.

The highest point on the surface of the Earth is Mount Everest in Nepal. 8,848 meters tall (29,028 feet)

The mean radius of the Earth (Core to sea level) is 6,372,797 meters. With Everest added to that, it comes out to 6,381,645 meters.

The total mass of the hydrosphere of the oceans is about 1.4 × 1021 kilograms, which is about 0.023% of the Earth's total mass.

The volume of the earth in-between the highest and lowest points on earth assuming that the ENTIRE surface is flooded WITH landmasses accounted for is 5x105

Avalible- 1.4 billion cubic kilometers
Needed (To cover the ENTIRE surface)- 5 quadrillion cubic kilometers
Missing- 4.9999986 quadrillion cubic kilometers.

We would need probably nine or ten orders of magnitude more water than we actually have avalible. Even if there were a couple billion cubic kilometers hiding under the surface of the Earth, we would even BEGIN to have enough.

To have that much water on Earth would disrupt the gravity of the Earth and SERIOUSLY mess with the tripple point of water which would result in the death of all life as we know it.

As you see, it it mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for the ENTIRE surface of the Earth to be covered with water.

the water isnt the only problem, it arguably isnt even the biggest.
1) While logic alone dictates that you need at least two individuals to have a population, the realities of genetics tells us that the damaging results of inbreeding would render a two individual-derived population wouldn't be viable.
2) Low-population genetic bottlenecks show up in the genes and a recent universal one doesnt exist.
3) There is no uniform global flood layer.
4) People shrug off fish because they live in the water and would be safe, NOPE! Most fish can only tolerate a very narrow range of salinity. The amount of water required to raise the oceans so drastically would have lowered its salinity well beyond the survival capabilities of most fish. However, as the seawater hit the lakes and rivers it would have been far too salty for most freshwater fish so they would have died as well.

I havent even addressed the logistical problems with feeding, housing, and redistribution of two of every animal on the planet.

 

[Naraoia]

4) People shrug off fish because they live in the water and would be safe, NOPE! Most fish can only tolerate a very narrow range of salinity. The amount of water required to raise the oceans so drastically would have lowered its salinity well beyond the survival capabilities of most fish. However, as the seawater hit the lakes and rivers it would have been far too salty for most freshwater fish so they would have died as well.

You know what? I think you've just found the cause of the Permian extinctions

 

[Servant222]

My fiancee did a calculation of what it would take to flood the Earth, turns out, its impossible

Lock and load!

The United Nations Environment Programme estimates there are 1.4 billion cubic kilometres (330 million mi3) of water available on Earth. Including underground sources.

The highest point on the surface of the Earth is Mount Everest in Nepal. 8,848 meters tall (29,028 feet)

The mean radius of the Earth (Core to sea level) is 6,372,797 meters. With Everest added to that, it comes out to 6,381,645 meters.

The total mass of the hydrosphere of the oceans is about 1.4 × 1021 kilograms, which is about 0.023% of the Earth's total mass.

The volume of the earth in-between the highest and lowest points on earth assuming that the ENTIRE surface is flooded WITH landmasses accounted for is 5x105

Avalible- 1.4 billion cubic kilometers
Needed (To cover the ENTIRE surface)- 5 quadrillion cubic kilometers
Missing- 4.9999986 quadrillion cubic kilometers.

We would need probably nine or ten orders of magnitude more water than we actually have avalible. Even if there were a couple billion cubic kilometers hiding under the surface of the Earth, we would even BEGIN to have enough.

To have that much water on Earth would disrupt the gravity of the Earth and SERIOUSLY mess with the tripple point of water which would result in the death of all life as we know it.

As you see, it it mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for the ENTIRE surface of the Earth to be covered with water.

There is a fundamental fallacy in your argument- the assumption that the earth was mountainous at the time of the Biblical flood.

We know plate tectonics creates mountains, and that before plate collisions occurred and mountains were thrust up, the earth was much flatter. Actually, if orogeny (mountain building) didn't happen anymore and the existing mountains were completely eroded away, the entire earth would be covered with water!

 

[Steezie]

There is a fundamental fallacy in your argument- the assumption that the earth was mountainous at the time of the Biblical flood.

We know plate tectonics creates mountains, and that before plate collisions occurred and mountains were thrust up, the earth was much flatter. Actually, if orogeny (mountain building) didn't happen anymore and the existing mountains were completely eroded away, the entire earth would be covered with water!

Umm...and Mt Sinai was what?

 

[AV1611VET]

As you see, it it mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for the ENTIRE surface of the Earth to be covered with water.

Check this math out: [bible]Mark 8:19[/bible]

 

[Nathan Poe]

Check this math out: [bible]Mark 8:19[/bible]

Even worse math. Your point, AV, except that you're a slave to magical thinking?

 

[TheOutsider]

There is a fundamental fallacy in your argument- the assumption that the earth was mountainous at the time of the Biblical flood.

We know plate tectonics creates mountains, and that before plate collisions occurred and mountains were thrust up, the earth was much flatter. Actually, if orogeny (mountain building) didn't happen anymore and the existing mountains were completely eroded away, the entire earth would be covered with water!

Dang it! Where is thaumaturgy when you need him?