One Jesus, two testimonies?

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

I am not "misguided."

Well you stick to your views then instead of criticising Fred Phelps.

I do not advocate harm to anyone.

neither do I

I believe in loving my neighbor, which is what Jesus called for.

so do I, but I also believe in loving God first and formost, which Jesus called for.

That includes loving my gay neighbor

So do I. So where does the sex come in?

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Well you stick to your views then instead of criticising Fred Phelps.
neither do I so do I, but I also believe in loving God first and formost, which Jesus called for. So do I. So where does the sex come in?

Please stop telling me to do. You do not dictate what I post. I decide that. Got that?

I will continue to criticize Fred Phelps, because Phelps is wrong.

Gene Robinson is not wrong.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Well you stick to your views then instead of criticising Fred Phelps.
neither do I so do I, but I also believe in loving God first and formost, which Jesus called for. So do I. So where does the sex come in?

Why are you so concerned with other people having sex? I am talking about respect for gay people and for our love relationships. Sex is only part of a love relationship, usually a small part. A committed love relationship is about caring for another person for life, about creating a family with another person.

Why do you worry about other people having sex, when other people's sex lives are really not your business? I don't ask you about your sex life. Why do you keep bringing this up in regard to other people?

 

[MercyBurst]

My witness in my life is contrary to that. There is no "evil" gay spirit. There are just gay people, people who are no more or less sinners than anyone else. Being gay in itself is not a sin; it's simply how God made some people.

You appear not to want to listen to ideas that contradict what you already believe, and that's up to you. I will, however, continue to speak the truth as I understand it, whether you agree with me or not. My personal witness matters, whether you think it does or not.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exgaydiscussionboard/message/22644

Your witness is irrelevant when other Christians are being hurt by the evil thing you promote.

Listen to this Brother in Christ as he witnesses against your argument:

Re: Help Me Slay the Gay Dragon

Gay sex is an exercise in sado-masochism. In my own fantasies, the
things I imagine are ways of conquering other men, of humiliating
them, to bring them down to size, so that they are broken, docile and
no longer a threat to me, so I don't feel intimidated by them any
more. This is sadistic and Not born of love for the other man.
Conversely, on the personal side, my involvement is for my own
personal humiliation and punishment for not measuring up to "man"
status, whatever that is. This is masochism. Now, here's the twist.
When Jesus said to love our neighbors as ourselves, He was assuming
that we actually do love ourselves. To do unto to others the carnal
things we desire to be done to ourselves is Not what He intended,
because that does not start from love or show love. So, evidently, if
I engage in such behavior, I am not loving myself at all. So how
could I be loving my neighbor? I'm not. Each of us is busy destroying
(Satanic) the masculine psyche of both himself and the other. Satan
came to kill, steal, and destroy.



But what they obviously Don't get: Every real Christians is two
utterly different, opposing, irreconcilible people sharing the same
memories, hearing each other's every thought, occupying the same body
at the same time, and both claiming identity and dominace. And I'm
constantly at war with myself as to which me is going to dominate.
But just as I trust that the carnal me will perish when the flesh
it's fused to sloughs off one day, and that the new me that's fused
with the Holy Spirit of my Hero will win, I also trust that the
carnal elements within Christendom will perish when The Church sheds
the earthy raiment for Her White Robe and Crown and rises to be with
Her Exalted Husband, His Eternal Imperial Majesties, Ruler of Every
Thing Existent and Not, Captor and Sovereign of Every Thought, Master
of Masters, Lord of Lords, King of all kings, ADONAI, God Almighty - -
Jesus, Victor over carnality and Image and Example of ALL that is
Holy. (Let every knee bow and every tongue proclaim that HE ALONE is
Lord.)


Why did Jesus come in the flesh? (1) That He might be just in His
judgment of humans. (2) That He might be merciful and understanding.
(3) So that we might see how to live. (4) To take our place in the
sentence He handed out in #1. (5) To conquer His own sentence by
rising again. (Awesome how God is able to have His cake and eat it
too, yes?) (6) To prove that, yes, it IS possible to say no to
temptation. (7) To comfort us, give us rest, to assure us that when
we resist temptation, we have indeed met the standard - His own
behavior. Now, that said, Did Jesus engage in homosexual behavior?
Nope. So why should we? To refrain from doing so is therefore to
be "like Jesus." To abstain from homosexual behavior is therefore
Christian. The opposite of abstenance from homosexual behavior must
be necessity an d definition, unChristian, not like Jesus... sin.

...Have these people even read Paul's writings?


Why is it that the rest of us should repent and they not have to?
That just angers me. It says that all MY efforts to obey Jesus have
no point. By implication, they argue that obedience to Jesus at all
has no point. They are, therefore, actually arguing that it is
pointless and no use to follow Jesus. Very shrewdly they front for
Satan, their true master. Do they honestly think that Father is going
to let them flaunt their behavior and attitude in front of us, in
front of Jesus, after what HE went through, for all eternity? Not a
chance. It wouldn't be fair to us and especially not to Jesus. But
God is not mocked. He sees. He knows. What was the reason the "enemy"
sowed tares among the wheat? Just to confuse the harvesters? Just to
bug the farmer? No. The tares are poisonous. But what did the farmer
say? Leave the tares unless you root up the wheat with it. HE KNOWS
WHAT IS GOING ON AND WHAT HE PLANS TO DO ABOUT IT. Rest in that.

Such people who say such things are calling me a liar when I say that
I am much healthier and happier Not satisfying the flesh. Love gives
the benefit of the doubt. Obviously, by calling you and me liars,
they are not giving us the benefit of the doubt. They are not showing
love. However, the Bible tells us (more than once) not to waste our
time arguing. Just tell the Truth and those that are Jesus' (or who
are open to Him) will hear the Truth because they know His voice.
Those that don't know Him, or who aren't open to Truth, aren't even
listening to Him anyway. ("Don't cast your pearls before swine.") It
is not your responsibility or ours to convince them or convict them.
That's the Spirit's job. Trust Him to know what He's doing and that
He's doing it. He knows every soul that is His, that will come to
Him. He promises in John 6:37, "ALL that the Father giveth me SHALL
come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
(emphasis mine)" The devil can't steal from Jesus, otherwise it'd be
more powerful than it's own Creator. How can that be? Rest. Jesus is
in control.


Feel free to copy-paste Quote me.

If we believe you, Ohioprof, then the Holy Spirit is a witness against itself and a liar. This can not be.

 

[MercyBurst]

Love gives the benefit of the doubt. Obviously, by calling you and me liars, they are not giving us the benefit of the doubt.

They are not showing love.

What a stinging testimony against "gay Christianity".

 

[Ohioprof]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exgaydiscussionboard/message/22644

Your witness is irrelevant when other Christians are being hurt by the evil thing you promote.

Listen to this Brother in Christ as he witnesses against your argument:



If we believe you, Ohioprof, then the Holy Spirit is a witness against itself and a liar. This can not be.

I promote no "evil thing." I am promoting what Jesus called for: that we love our neighbor. That includes our gay neighbors.

Other people are free to speak their truths as they understand them. I am free to speak my truth. You are free to reject what I say, but I am going to post my understanding of truth whether you accept what I say or not.

If you don't like my testimony, then I recommend that you read the testimony of the founder of Exodus International, Michael Bussee, who has since apologized for promoting "ex-gay ministries" and who has acknowledged that they do not work. This is an excerpt from the website http://beyondexgay.com The quoted material is in blue:
Statement of Apology by Former Exodus Leaders
Michael Bussee

My name is Michael Bussee. I want to thank you for this opportunity to tell my story. Thirty years ago, I helped create EXODUS International. Today, I am here to apologize. Today, I am a licensed Marriage and Family therapist, a father, a born-again, evangelical Christian—and a proud gay man. But thirty years ago, I was not so proud.

In fact, I grew up hating my gay feelings. I endured name-calling, bullying and beatings. Why did the other kids seem to hate me so much? I didn’t choose to have these feelings and wanted to get rid of them. I wanted more than anything to be “normal,” to fit in—to fall in love, settle down, have kids. I desperately wanted to be straight. But how?

At about age 12, I began a personal quest to find the “cure” for homosexuality. I made a decision to embark on my own private exodus—to find the way out of homosexuality. My search led me to God. As a senior in High School, I accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior. That decision changed my life forever and I remain a committed evangelical Christian to this day.

Then, in 1974, I found Melodyland Christian Center in Anaheim and began work as one of their volunteer hotline counselors. At first, I told no one about my gay feelings. Finally, I had to “come clean.” I told the Hotline director that I was a “Christian homosexual.” He told me there was “absolutely no such thing.” He said that if I was truly a Christian, then I was “ no longer gay in God’s eyes.”

I needed to believe that I was now heterosexual – to “name it and claim it.” God would do the miracle over time. “Keep praying,” they told me. If I had enough faith, I would eventually be “set free.” I wanted it more than anything and sincerely believed it would come true.

At that time, there was no ministry to gays at our mega-church, so my friend, Jim Kaspar and I decided to invent one. In 1975. We created EXIT—which stood for “EX-gay Intervention Team.” (Sort of like “Ghostbusters” – only gay!) We began providing individual counseling sessions, weekly support groups, Bible studies, and prayer meetings. Even though we had absolutely no formal training, and had only been calling ourselves “ex-gay” for a few months, we were suddenly the “experts.”

Pastors and therapists began referring clients to us. We wrote materials on “How To Help The Homosexual” and gave our “testimonies of change” at church conferences and on radio and television talk shows -- including Pat Robertson’s “700 Club.” Robertson kept asking if we thought we had once had “gay demons.” He seemed disappointed when we both told him “no.”

In 1976, we learned of others like us who were setting up small “change” or “deliverance” ministries in their areas. In September of 1976, at Melodyland Christian Center in Anaheim, EXIT hosted the first ever conference of “ex-gays.” A handful of ministry leaders along with approximately 60 delegates voted to form a loose-knit coalition of ministries. We called it EXODUS. We thought that, called like Moses and directed my God, we could and would lead many gays and lesbians to the heterosexual “promised land.”

I need to say that some had a positive, life-changing experience attending our Bible studies and support groups. They experienced God’s love and the welcoming fellowship of others who knew the struggle. There were some real “changes”—but not one of the hundreds of people we counseled became straight.

Instead, many of our clients began to fall apart – sinking deeper into patterns of guilt, anxiety and self-loathing. Why weren’t they “changing”? The answers from church leaders made the pain even worse: “You might not be a real Christian.” “You don’t have enough faith.” “You aren’t praying and reading the Bible enough.” “Maybe you have a demon.” The message always seemed to be: “You’re not enough. You’re not trying hard enough. You don’t have enough faith.”

Some simply dropped out and were never heard from again. I think they were the lucky ones. Others became very self-destructive. One young man got drunk and deliberately drove his car into a tree. Another (a fellow leader of the ex-gay movement) told me that he had left EXODUS and was now going to straight bars – looking for someone to beat him up. He said the beatings made him feel less guilty – atoning for his sin. One of my most dedicated clients, Mark, took a razor blade to his genitals, slashed himself repeatedly, and then poured drain-cleaner on the wounds—because after months of celibacy he had a “fall.”

In the midst of all of this, my own faith in the EXODUS movement was crumbling. No one was really becoming “ex-gay.” Who were we fooling? As one current EXODUS leader admitted, we were just “Christians with homosexual tendencies who would rather not have those tendencies.” By calling ourselves “ex-gay” we were lying to ourselves and to others. We were hurting people.

In 1979, another EXODUS pioneer (Gary Cooper) and I decided to leave EXODUS—and our wives. For years, we had both firmly believed that the EXODUS process would make us straight. Instead, we realized we had fallen in love with each other! We came out publicly against EXODUS in 1991. Our story is featured in the documentary “One Nation Under God.” Gary died of AIDS shortly before the film was completed.

Since then, I have remained one of EXODUS’s most persistent critics – not because I want to “deny hope.” On the contrary, I want to affirm that God loves every person—and that God’s love and forgiveness does indeed change lives. It has certainly changed mine. It just didn’t make me straight. I have found harmony between my sexuality and my spirituality—and I am hopeful that others can do the same. Everyone’s journey is different. My own private exodus has been an incredible journey.

I have lost many friends and lovers to AIDS. I have been fired from two jobs – just for being gay. And five years ago, I survived a violent and senseless hate crime that nearly took my life. I was beaten and then stabbed in the back by gang members yelling, “[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]” as they attacked. My best friend, Jeffery Owens, was not so lucky. He was stabbed in the back five times and bled to death on an operating table.

In spite of all of this, I consider myself a survivor. I am a happy, relatively well-adjusted, evangelical Christian, gay man. I am in a loving committed relationship with a great guy, my partner Richard, and I serve as an Elder in my local Presbyterian church. I love God and I love life.

And I have hope. I believe that we are making headway. Groups like EXODUS will go out of business when people no longer feel that they must deny who they really are, to attempt to become what they really are not.

Until then, for those wonderful people, (gay, ex-gay and ex-ex-gay) who have blessed my life and enriched my journey, I am truly thankful. And to those I may have harmed by my involvement in EXODUS, I am truly sorry.

Michael Bussee was one of the originators of the ex-gay movement. In the mid-1970s, while working as a telephone counselor at Melodyland Christian Center in Anaheim, California, Bussee co-founded the Ex-gay Intervention Team (EXIT) and later hosted an unprecedented conference of ex-gay ministries at which a handful of ministry leaders, along with approximately 60 delegates, voted to form a loose coalition called EXODUS. However, by the end of the decade, Bussee began to doubt the efficacy and ethics of the ex-gay message. Bussee and his ex-gay colleague Gary Cooper made a dramatic departure from Exodus when they publicly declared their love in 1979. Their story is featured in the documentary One Nation Under God. Today Bussee is a licensed Marriage and Family therapist, a father, an evangelical Christian, and a proud gay man.

 

[Ohioprof]

What a stinging testimony Michael Bussee's is against the "ex-gay" Christian industry.

 

[Ohioprof]

Here is another excerpt from the website http://beyondexgay.com It's a statement of apology from anohter former Exodus leader Jeremy Marks. I hope people find his testimony informative. The quoted material is in blue.

Statement of Apology by Former Exodus Leader
Jeremy Marks

Thank you so much for the great opportunity this event provides, to share the journey I have taken, through the past 20 years especially—which has involved moving right away from the ex-gay ethos I embraced in the mid 1980's, in response to the evangelical Christian church’s rejection of homosexuality and same-sex relationships.

Perhaps I should take this opportunity first to say how sorry I am, and to ask forgiveness from all my fellow Gay, Lesbian Bisexual and Trans-gendered people who might be listening to this—for my part in colluding with the religious right in the Western world. Though at the time we did not see it this way, our collusion involved setting up and maintaining an oppressive anti-gay, and I must also say equally anti-Christian view of homosexuality, that profoundly dishonors Jesus Christ and has betrayed the Gospel. There really can be no excuse for this. But there are reasons for it, and I hope this brief statement will begin to shed light on those reasons, and bring understanding and possibly some reconciliation—as that is the ministry of the Gospel.

My story begins with the discovery that I was gay in the mid 1960's, at a time when the UK government changed the law, decriminalizing homosexual acts—almost exactly 40 years ago. In those days I felt so uncomfortable in experiencing same-sex attractions because it was so different to the experience of everyone else I knew. So I found refuge in a Church which was willing to embrace a repentant sinner, though this meant I had to fight any homosexual tendencies in thought, word and deed. This allowed me some acceptance and place in the church, and a number of church leaders gave many hours of their time to “minister” to me—praying for deliverance and healing from homosexuality. They were always compassionate and caring, but never was there a moment when we might have considered that our traditional view of homosexuality might have been wrong.

In 1986, I became a member of an ex-gay ministry in the UK where, for the first time in my life, I met other gay Christians involved in the same struggle. Early in 1987, I had the opportunity to visit Love in Action in Northern California, where I was welcomed with immense warmth, kindness and hospitality. As a result, I returned home to found Courage UK early in 1988. In those days, when many traditional churches believed all gay people were bound for hell and were without hope, Love in Action founder Frank Worthen and his wife Anita, were true pioneers who gave the best years of their lives and everything they had to help alleviate the suffering and isolation of many gay Christian people. They got little support or appreciation for their work from the mainline churches.

Back in the UK, we adopted Frank’s Steps Out of Homosexuality program, which we ran through to the end of 1994, when we had to close our live-in houses due to shortage of funds and a number of other practical issues. This gave me an unexpected break from 7 years of feeling overworked—which allowed me to spend time assessing the long-term fruit of the ministry we had offered. We continued to run weekly support groups, but over the next few years, I became increasingly aware that none of the people who had been through our live-in program had experienced any change whatsoever to their sexuality; indeed the profound sense of having wasted years of their lives in working and praying for change resulted in the majority becoming deeply depressed, cynical and in some cases even suicidal —many losing their Christian faith altogether. A tiny handful, like myself, got married (heterosexually) but far from this being the outcome of healing or any real change in orientation, we made this choice because in evangelical Christian circles we had just two options—we could either get married, heterosexually, if we wanted close companionship, or we could remain celibate for life. Same-sex partnerships were never an option for anyone who wished to remain in the evangelical or charismatic churches.

The one great benefit of our discipleship programs and support group meetings in those days at Courage UK, was that these provided an opportunity for lesbian & gay people to meet other Christians in an environment where they could be completely open and honest about the issues and struggles they faced. This proved to be of lasting value to them. Many close friendships were formed that have continued these past 20 years, and a few even found their partners in our group. This was not officially “allowed”, of course, but I could not condemn them for doing so; I had no better alternative to offer them in view of our total failure to effect the change we had all been looking for.

Even through the mid to late 1990's, we could see no alternative to the theological approach of our churches. So we still wanted to find a way out of homosexuality. Indeed this seemed to be the promise of God for all who truly sought Him, according to our understanding of the Bible. During this time, I became President of Exodus International Europe. However, I felt increasingly unhappy at what I saw as the dishonesty of my fellow Exodus ministries—no-one seemed willing to look at the issue of our failure to fulfil the promise of healing we claimed to believe was possible. Nor was anyone prepared to consider there might be an alternative view. Finally, by the turn of the Millennium, I had personally reached the point where I felt that at the very least we had to respect those who formed committed same-sex partnerships, even if we could not agree on doctrinal grounds. This forced the issue between me and fellow Exodus leaders with the result that I had to leave the Exodus movement in the summer of 2000.

One year later, I discovered Evangelicals Concerned, a theologically conservative, yet pro-gay, Christian ministry founded by Dr Ralph Blair from New York. They had operated as a kind of opposite number to Exodus over the same time-span. There I found Christian fellowship where members could fully embrace the possibility of being gay and Christian without conflict. I also met many lesbian and gay Christians who had been in long-term committed partnerships, so at last I could see for myself that this is not only possible but entirely appropriate for gay Christians. Consequently I fully embraced the ethos of EC.

Ever since, at Courage UK, we have operated as a gay-affirming Christian ministry. As a result, I have become a pariah amongst evangelical and charismatic churches in the UK and beyond. But apart from the sad loss of what I had believed to be many good friends, I have no regrets. I could not possibly return to the spiritually and emotionally corrosive ministry style that has proved to be so misguided and downright damaging in the long run. An interesting corollary is that most of those who had sought our help, who had been with Courage UK from the beginning in 1988, came with us in this journey; the fact is that we had journeyed and made the discovery together—that it is possible to be gay and Christian.

My challenge to Exodus leaders today is to remember that we began as pioneers, but lost our way when we found a measure of acceptance and support from mainline churches. Instead of listening to the experience of those to who we had offered help, we refused to allow ourselves to face honest and necessary self-criticism, thus we failed to evaluate the long term effects of our work for what it was. We therefore forsook the path of following the Spirit of Christ. We compromised and settled for acceptance in the eyes of other Christian leaders—who really know nothing of what it means to be gay and Christian.

I now want to try and encourage all those so-called “ex-gay” Christians who lead Exodus ministries—who, in their hearts, know very well that what I am saying is true—to change their minds, as I had to—to simply trust in God once again for their credibility and support, even though that may mean risking all, as you did before. Though it has been tough, and I have lost everything, nevertheless I have found God to be faithful in providing for my basic needs. So let us return once again to proclaiming the Good News of Jesus Christ—which is that love, acceptance and forgiveness is available to all who turn to Christ, regardless of their sexuality or gender. And let us be honest in recognizing that God has commanded us to love one another—for some of us that may mean that our choice of live-partner will be someone of the same sex.

At the last Exodus conference I attended, in the year 2000, I noticed banners displaying the message “Freedom from homosexuality in Jesus Christ.” This saddened me because I had seen no real evidence of that message in 12 years of attending Exodus conferences. I knew people who (like me) had married, but that was not the same thing.


Jeremy Marks is a British evangelical Christian who founded an ex-gay ministry called Courage UK in 1988. Marks eventually became the President of Exodus International Europe and served on the board of Exodus International. But by the end of the 1990s, he became seriously concerned about the long-term effects of ex-gay ministries. “I came to understand that our approach was sowing isolation, loss of faith, broken marriages, and even attempted suicides. I knew I must change our ministry approach.” In 2000, in spite of opposition and ostracism from the evangelical community, Marks transformed Courage UK into a gay-affirming evangelical ministry. Today Courage UK serves gay and lesbian Christians seeking a safe space to reconcile their faith and sexuality.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

Sorry....this is not true. More than likely there are no "ex-gays."

On the contrary the Holy Spirit we are referring to in the Bible cannot contradict Himself. Please speak for your holy spirit and your jesus, not the Biblical one.

There are only people trying desperately to stop being gay by denying who they really are and repressing their sexual desires. If that works for them and makes them happy, then fine for them. But most gay people will never, and should never, embrace such self-hating beliefs.

But the testimony of these people is the opposite of self hating, its self esteem. See for example http://www.zacchaeus.ca/index.html

Most gay people will reject your particular interpretation of Christianity,

but most will be rejecting Christianity itself as many here have demonstrated your particular interpretation of Christianity isn’t Christianity.

because it denies who we gay people really are.

On the contrary it is Christ who makes us who we are in Christ and that includes some homosexuals and any homosexual who wants to seek Christ, gay doesn’t come into it.

Your particular interpretation of Christianity makes life impossible for gay people, and I think gay people will continue to reject it

http://www.zacchaeus.ca/index.html obviously not.

in favor of Christian understandings that embrace all people, including gay people.

And as you have been told before, Lambeth 1.10 embraces all gay people who believe, you don’t seem to be able to see anyone elses evidence yet you present little yourself except your own thinking.
I can see the fellowship link are Christians who are or were homosexual, who believe and who are transformed and liberated by the truth.

I will continue to criticize Fred Phelps, because Phelps is wrong.

Gene Robinson is not wrong.

Both Fred Phelps and Gene Robinson are wrong because the former abandons love of his neighbour when communicating the sin of same-sex sex and Gene Robinson abandons the love of God when having sex with his neighbour. Same-sex is a sin according to the Bible as we have demonstrated.

Why are you so concerned with other people having sex? I am talking about respect for gay people and for our love relationships. Sex is only part of a love relationship, usually a small part. A committed love relationship is about caring for another person for life, about creating a family with another person.

why are you so concerned with sex at the expense of God? A same-sex relationship cant produce a family even nature and science can tell you that isn’t naturally possible, you don’t have to disbelieve God for that

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
On the contrary the Holy Spirit we are referring to in the Bible cannot contradict Himself. Please speak for your holy spirit and your jesus, not the Biblical one.

But the testimony of these people is the opposite of self hating, its self esteem. See for example http://www.zacchaeus.ca/index.html
but most will be rejecting Christianity itself as many here have demonstrated your particular interpretation of Christianity isn’t Christianity.

On the contrary it is Christ who makes us who we are in Christ and that includes some homosexuals and any homosexual who wants to seek Christ, gay doesn’t come into it. http://www.zacchaeus.ca/index.html obviously not.
And as you have been told before, Lambeth 1.10 embraces all gay people who believe, you don’t seem to be able to see anyone elses evidence yet you present little yourself except your own thinking.
I can see the fellowship link are Christians who are or were homosexual, who believe and who are transformed and liberated by the truth.

Both Fred Phelps and Gene Robinson are wrong because the former abandons love of his neighbour when communicating the sin of same-sex sex and Gene Robinson abandons the love of God when having sex with his neighbour. Same-sex is a sin according to the Bible as we have demonstrated.

why are you so concerned with sex at the expense of God? A same-sex relationship cant produce a family even nature and science can tell you that isn’t naturally possible, you don’t have to disbelieve God for that

I disagree with your assertion that Gene Robinson is wrong. I think he is a splendid example of a fine Christian leader. We'll just have to agree to disagree about that question.

I have not expressed concern with sex. I have asked you why you insist on bringing up sex. I have been arguing for fair and equal treatment for gay people as we are. I have been arguing the Christians should accept gay people as we are, not point fingers at gay people or label our love relationships "sin." I haven't been talking about sex at all, and I don't have sex, personally.

People who harbor anti-gay attitudes often seem to be obsessed with sex, while dismissing entirely our love relationships and our families.

Whether two women or two men can physically produce children together is irrelevant. Gay people can and do bear and adopt and raise children; we do create and maintain families. You don't denigrate the families created through adoption by infertile opposite-sex couples, do you? Why denigrate our families?

 

[MercyBurst]

I promote no "evil thing." I am promoting what Jesus called for: that we love our neighbor. That includes our gay neighbors.

Versus:

When Jesus said to love our neighbors as ourselves, He was assuming that we actually do love ourselves. To do unto to others the carnal things we desire to be done to ourselves is Not what He intended, because that does not start from love or show love. So, evidently, if I engage in such behavior, I am not loving myself at all. So how could I be loving my neighbor? I'm not. Each of us is busy destroying
(Satanic) the masculine psyche of both himself and the other. Satan came to kill, steal, and destroy.

The evidence against your "gay Christian" argument is horrific. It brings vomit up from my stomach.

Is this what you call "good healthy natural love". You have got to be kidding.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

I promote no "evil thing." I am promoting what Jesus called for: that we love our neighbor. That includes our gay neighbors.

Yes it also includes our enemies and Fred Phelps. Do you love Fred Phelps Ohioprof?

In spite of all of this, I consider myself a survivor. I am a happy, relatively well-adjusted, evangelical Christian, gay man. I am in a loving committed relationship with a great guy, my partner Richard, and I serve as an Elder in my local Presbyterian church. I love God and I love life.

Alas I think you have a different god there Ohioprof. God’s purpose in creation is man and woman to be united, a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife and the two shall become one flesh. Gen 2, Matt 19 etc.

Its all very well posting testimonies but are they of God, or man? The test for the Christian is the Bible.

 

[MercyBurst]

What a stinging testimony Michael Bussee's is against the "ex-gay" Christian industry.

His testimony is irrelevant when we have two opposed testimonies; they can not both be from God. So who do we believe -- I believe the one that makes the greatest sacrifice, and the one that is being spiritually harmed.

That is what Christian love calls me to do for my Brother.

Your argument is all washed up because it fails to love my Brother in Christ, whom you want to disown.

 

[Ohioprof]

Versus:




The evidence against your "gay Christian" argument is horrific. It brings vomit up from my stomach.

Is this what you call "good healthy natural love". You have got to be kidding.

Natural healthy love is love that is respectful and caring toward another.

I am sorry if my personal testimony makes you feel like you want to vomit, but I am not going to stop speaking the truth as I understand it. Calling on folks to love our neighbor, which is what Jesus said, should not cause anyone to vomit. If it does, I suspect you have a stomach flu and should probably get it checked out.

 

[Ohioprof]

His testimony is irrelevant when we have two opposed testimonies; they can not both be from God. So who do we believe -- I believe the one that makes the greatest sacrifice, and the one that is being spiritually harmed.

That is what Christian love calls me to do for my Brother.

Your argument is all washed up because it fails to love my Brother in Christ, whom you want to disown.

I have called for disowning no one.

You are free to reject the testimony of the former leaders of the "ex-gay" ministry Exodus, but their testimony is indeed powerful, and it stands as a refutation of claims by some Christians that people can stop being gay by embracing Jesus. Jesus never tried to make anyone "ex-gay." It's people with an anti-gay agenda who try to do that.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

I disagree with your assertion that Gene Robinson is wrong. I think he is a splendid example of a fine Christian leader. We'll just have to agree to disagree about that question.

Ah but that depends again on what makes a Christian.

I have not expressed concern with sex. I have asked you why you insist on bringing up sex. I have been arguing for fair and equal treatment for gay people as we are. I have been arguing the Christians should accept gay people as we are, not point fingers at gay people or label our love relationships "sin." I haven't been talking about sex at all, and I don't have sex, personally.

I haven’t brought up sex you have by a process of elimination. I have loving same-sex relationships but I they don’t involve sex, the only difference between mine and yours must be yours have sex.

Whether two women or two men can physically produce children together is irrelevant.

Then you need not have made your statement, as you did my answer is relevant.

Gay people can and do bear and adopt and raise children;

as man and woman, that’s called marriage. J

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Yes it also includes our enemies and Fred Phelps. Do you love Fred Phelps Ohioprof?

Alas I think you have a different god there Ohioprof. God’s purpose in creation is man and woman to be united, a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife and the two shall become one flesh. Gen 2, Matt 19 etc.

Its all very well posting testimonies but are they of God, or man? The test for the Christian is the Bible.

Do I love Fred Phelps? Yes, because he is a fellow human being and an expression of God's spirit. Do I think he is mistaken? Yes.

I do not believe in a different God from you. I understand God differently from how you understand him. There is only one God, in my view.

I do not make an idol of the Bible. I do not regard the Bible as a source of my understanding of God.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Ah but that depends again on what makes a Christian.

I haven’t brought up sex you have by a process of elimination. I have loving same-sex relationships but I they don’t involve sex, the only difference between mine and yours must be yours have sex.

Then you need not have made your statement, as you did my answer is relevant. as man and woman, that’s called marriage. J

You asked, "What about the sex?" That was you bringing up sex.

Whether and when and how a couple has sex is their private business; it's not for me to concern myself with. I don't judge committed couples either for having sex or for not having sex. I accept them as a couple and don't judge them over what I imagine to be their sex life.

As I have said many times before, I do not have sex with anyone.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

Natural healthy love is love that is respectful and caring toward another.

Yes but we already agree that, ist same-sex sex that is the sin.

I am sorry if my personal testimony makes you feel like you want to vomit, but I am not going to stop speaking the truth as I understand it. Calling on folks to love our neighbor, which is what Jesus said, should not cause anyone to vomit. If it does, I suspect you have a stomach flu and should probably get it checked out.

But your testimony is about sex and sexaul attraction not the love Jesus refered to. Its ok as long as you leave out Jesus or cite where Jesus countenanced same-sex unions

 

[lincolngreen50]

Why are true Christians arguing with people who dont even believe in what it is to be a Christian.Those in Sin cannot be a Christian until.They ask God through Jesus Christ to forgive them of there sin.They believe in their heart that Jesus died to pay their sin debt.They believe in their heart that Jesus died and 3 days later was resurrected.One who believes different are not Christians