A Strange Debate

[CShephard53]

Continued discussion from 'where is the love?'.

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

I have claimed nothing that the saints did not state, but you have misquoted me ... the problem has nothing to do with me, it is simply that most christians these days,a nd their 'priests' are sinners, whereas all the original christians became saints during life through spirit baptism to know all truth of god [John 16:13] to be able to stop sinning by defeating satan's wiles with the truth given them by God...

Thus it is the saints and Jesus who say that sinners are not of Christ, not me :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Rom 6:2 ... How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

etc...

If you want to disbelieve all this scriptuer [and more] that is OK by me. I am not here to change anyone's mind , only to point out scriptures that many just ignore whilst claimimg they believe them , but I just resent your pretending that I said it [would I had the knowledge to do so !] and your misquoting me as well...

You would apparently have us be perfect. I've got news for you. We can't be this side of heaven. He who talks about love does a great job of calling people ignorant.

Read my 'blog' [above button labelled 'Blog'] since there is really too much material to repeat it all here ...

So you need to send me to another place to try to show that they relate?

As pointed out by Jesus , all men will accept His commandment eventually and love perfectly , but very few will do so in this life, just 144,000 ...

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
Rev 7:5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
Rev 7:6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
Rev 7:7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
Rev 7:8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.
Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

Tell me: how can someone be standing before the throne unless they are saved? They can't? Well, then your 144000 saved theory goes right out the window.

iniquity is simply sin, any unlovingness , the opposite of love ...

I've shown what iniquity is. You're going to try and argue against a Greek dictionary?

sinners who are still sinners at Jesus' return will be rejected simply because they are not ready for translation because they are not perfect in love like the saints and Jesus ... they simply go on to God's next stage in redemption of the whole creation through jesus Christ ... and there is yet another stage after judgment day when uncountably many gentiles are redeemed.

Show where these levels and stages are in Scripture, please.

I am not sure why you want to get to this bheaven since it will be destroyed ... and God comes down to live with men in the new earth, thus that heaven will perhaps be a little lonely for you too... if you want to get to the third heaven then you too will need baptism of the spirit [after water baptism] to know all truth of God [John 16:13] to be enabled by His truth to resist Satan 's temptations as Jesus and the saints , and prove your faith in baptism of fire to perfect your love ...this is what following Jesus means, following what he went through, the three baptisms :-

Three heavens? Where is that? And where does it state that those in the current heaven are still there when it gets destroyed?

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1Jn 5:6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:
1Jn 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son.
1Jn 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.

Thought I'd add a bit of context there...

I do not see how you have read the gospels about supposedly the same events and not noticed the many differences... let alone the differences in supposed factual counts given by different books in the OT...

Um, show them. Stop with the claims, you're not proving anything except how unwilling you are to back your claims...

I am thinking that you just do not want to look because you want to believe that they are not there... there are threads on this topic which is too big to disrupt this thread with, and many books about it ...

I'm thinking you don't want to present evidence to back your claims, seeing as all you're doing is making an attempt to discredit me...
I've read the Bible. Accusing me of being unwilling to look doesn't get you anywhere...

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Yes, faith must stand the test.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

It looks like there's a simultaneous baptism going on, not three separate ones...

Without all truth of God you will not stand a chance against Satan , you will still be a sinner by the time Jesus returns and he says what he will say to sinners who think he is their lord at that time :-

Valid.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Work:
ergazomai; from G2041; to work, labor: - accomplish (1), accomplished (1), accomplishing (1), achieve (1), committing (1), do (1), do...work (1), does (3), doing (1), doing...work (1), done (2), make...living (1), perform (4), performed (1), performing (1), practice (1), produces (1), traded (1), work (9), work be done (1), work do...perform (1), working (7), works (1), wrought (1).

In other words, lifestyle- something that you strive towards or live in. Living in sin is not the same as missing the mark...

Iniquity:
G458
α[FONT=&quot]̓[/FONT]νομι[FONT=&quot]́[/FONT]α
anomia
Thayer Definition:
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
Part of Speech: noun feminine

Purposeful, in other words.

All men [excepting Jesus] were sinners in this life, few find the strait narrow way of becoming saints, ceasing from sin, following Jesus in perfect love :-

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Perfect:
G5046
τε[FONT=&quot]́[/FONT]λειος
teleios
Thayer Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature
Part of Speech: adjective

In context, the verse is commanding us to love our enemies, not just our friends.

Be consoled though, that is far from the ned of redemption that sinners mysteriously teach the masses , Jesus uinfoirms us that the many who go by the broad way are also saved [Rev 7:9-10] , but later, thus after the second resurrection, not the first ...

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."


How exactly does 'people from every nation, tribe, people, and tongue' translate to everyone?

My friend, that is not "plenty" ... more significant to me is that there is so LITTLE left in witness to the man who had more impact on other men than any other man in history ... the absence of evidence leaves what professionals call a 'void' ... there should be far more and it is good eveidence of censorship, destruction of witness...

Little? You demonstrate a horrible ignorance of the time period. Do you think it would be likely for historians of the day to write about some guy- no matter who he is- from a small town in Israel? Jesus did not do much to impact overall history at the time He was around. 4+ references outside of the Bible isn't little, taking that into consideration.

 

[stranger]

Continued discussion from 'where is the love?'.

You would apparently have us be perfect. I've got news for you. We can't be this side of heaven. He who talks about love does a great job of calling people ignorant.

It matters not what I would have anyone do, we are not discussing what I would have happen, but what God will have happen according to sripture.... thus please stop talking as though you knwo what I would have happen, it has nothing to do with what we are discussing and is of no importance anyway.

So you have made this up my friend or heard it from some sinner whom yoiu believed without resorting to checking the scripture first ...instead of reading the scripture and finding out that we must be perfect BEFORE being redeemed to spirit and having access to 'the heavens' of the immortal spirit...

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

1 Kings 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

Deuteronomy 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

 

[stranger]

Tell me: how can someone be standing before the throne unless they are saved? They can't? Well, then your 144000 saved theory goes right out the window.

I don't see how you can have a debate if you don't even bother to read what the other one says...

The 144,000 are just firstfruit saints, made perfec in this world through baptism of the spirit by grace under the new covenant with Israel [Heb 8:8-12]

The MANY saved afterward [Rev 7:9-10] are thus not redeemed at Jesus' return else they would be numbered among the firstfruit few, instead we know that this many are saved after destruction in death because they took the broad way ....

Thus destruction in death is not the end of redemption at all, but simply the main alternative to grace, for the many... which is thus why grace is offered only to those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9] :-

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

 

[stranger]

Show where these levels and stages are in Scripture, please.

The first phase is the redemption of the few who find te narrow way in this earth, the first fruits of teh spirit sealed now i spirit baptism m who have ceased to be sinners in time for their death or Jesus' return [whichever is sooner] ... this then the 144,000 of Rev 7:3-4 and their seal is to cease from sin because they are baptised to know all truth [John 16:13] long enough before death to be able to perfect their love in precious trial of faith [baptism of fire]

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Read it this time , tell me if you think it doesn't say that the SEAL of God is that they CEASE TO SIN

Those saved next are saved after these few [Rev 7:9-10] and are inumerably many , thus they came by the BROAD way, throuh destruction in death, not by grace , and so cannot be released from hell and death until the second resurrection ... but God has promised them baptism of the spiriit [Joel 2:28], thus being feed fromm sin by death, they can and do live righteously as MANY saints in the new earth :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Thus inumerably many are saved once hell and death give up the many, but they could not be reurrected at the first resurrection because they died sinners in this life , not saints perfected in love ...

We see then that god requires the few who will be the priests and kings in His kingdom to be redeemed first, and it is rather clear why, they are priests and kings who need to be ready at the strat to minister and rule... so the many are saved later as we know, few find the narrow strait way now...

The final stagein God's plan is the lake of fire, which you are far from ready to discuss yet... we shall discuss it later as there is enough material to absorb from scripture here already , for now... so much to reprove to God's word because you already took your beliefs from sinners before reading and understanding all that God says in scripture ... common enough mistake, but it is exactly how Satan deludes 'all the earth ' [Rev 13:3-8]

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[stranger]

Darkness , then light, the two earths... but there are three heavens...
So here is the place where St Paul identifies the paradise of God with the third heaven ... but you really should have read this for yourself , else you will come back to telling me that I said it, whereas it is the scripture that says it, not me :-

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
...4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Again we can see that paradise is the same as the 'garden' in another passage because both contai the access to the tree of life [immortality] :-

Revelation 2:7 ... To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Genesis 2:9 ... the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Thus we find Adam is TAKEN to the 'garden' , it is not on earth , but is the third heaven, the final rest in the spirit pictured in holy sabbath of God, the sign set upon Israel for all time , because God has said they will be the first redeemed, his holy priesthood of kings, a holy nation of priests , a kingdom of priests... but very clearly they have never been so in this earth to date, and vet clearly Jesus is not yet king [Messiah, Christ] of all Israel yet, many Jews for instance do not accept him as their king yet ...

But Jesus never said his kingdom is of THIS earth, the king-priests will rule on earth [Revelation 5:10] but not this earth :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

Thus the kingdom of God here is ONLY in the hearts and minds of the very few saints alive at any one time here [perhaps on average just some two thousand of the 144,000 can be alive at any one time as God will not allow them to all be killed off, despite the many attempts to do so by Satan throughout history since Jesus' death , including the total destruction of the seven holy churches of God , long in ruins , never again holding a congregation of saints]

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The kingdom then is established by means of first redeeming a remnant of Israel , then all Israel [ since many of Israel also died sinners and cannot live until the resurrection of the unjust, the second resurrection]

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Jacob is the original name of Israel, God renamed him when He placed His name upon him as the father of the holy nation of royal priests destined , predestinated, elected, chosen, for His kingdom ...

not by merit though, they were/are all sinners until God baptises them to know all his truth [John 16:13] and so be able to defeat Satan in temptation and thus cease from all sin... and God's baptism is thus by grace, before repentance , in this earth, but only of the few He requires as priests and kings now,... the firstfruits , the few who find the narrow strait way , the 144,000 saints

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

Note the new covenant is only with yet-divided Israel, and that the Jews are only one of the Houses [kingdoms] of divided Israel, the House of Israel has lived for three millenia amongst gentiles, living as gentiles, they were scattered by God amongst all nations but did not have Judaism to hold them together as a scattered people, they lost their identity and continued worshipping idols, unlike the Jews

Thus even by the time of Jesus , the House of Israel already thought of themselves as gentiles and were certainly rejected by the Jews... but Jesus says that he was sent ONLY to them , amongst the gentile nations...

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Again he sends his disciples to the lost House of Israel, not to the Jews , not to the masses of the gentiles.... only Paul has the task given him of explaining about Israel to the gentiles... but the Romans decided they would rather destroy the old religion of the Hebrew saints and take the name of 'christianity' for their own paganised version, invent sinner priests in place of the saints and Jesus , and control the otherwise dangerous spread of the religion in order to keep control of the people by means of force of arms and the law of the pagan emperor through making non-Hebrew christianity the norm in the world.... it worked, just as Jesus said it would, except in the few saints, many of whom died, fed to lions to amuse the crowds of Romans, or crucified , like St Peter was in Rome [who then pretended that he gave them powers he never even had]

thus the religion of this earth was given into Satan's hands by God , except for the few whom God retains as His by means of grace, not merit, simply because He has said who will be His priests, put His very name on the line that Israel will be the first redeemed so that they can minister to the billions redeemed in the kingdom come on the new earth...

But men in the new earth kingdom still have to follow Jesus, after being freed from sin in death and the second resurrection they still require spirit baptism and perfection of their love in trial ...

Thus Satan is also released at the second resurrection [Revelation 20:3] to tempt the nations and the great battle of Armageddon ensues because he still decieves many:-

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

God however continues the steady irreversible removal of men from Satan's grasp , men stream into New Jerusalem to become saints and be redeemed at judgement day ...

and so the new earth kingdom is the the resounding success in redemption that God has planned for , the many of Rev 7:9-10 are saved simply through god's freeing them from sin in death at or before the end of this world, through destruction they are free of sin and God promises them baptism of the spirit [Joel 2:28] to be able to resist Satan's temptations once they are alive again to receive it ...

and men thus live righteously in the new earth, countless many being redeemed at judgement day by works, not grace as in this earth (though grace causes works of course, else faith is dead] :-

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

There is much more of course in scripture, I cannot present it all here ... obviously the scripture is for reading with God, I can perhaps only 'whet the appetite' to get to reading and praying and meditating instead of finding other things to do in this world which are but vanity :-

Ecclesiastes 2:17 Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Reading scripture, praying and meditating, enjoying the blessings of holy sabbath [from sunset to sunset in Jerusalem, absolute time, not the 'time' men changed things to for sinners] , it becomes a pleasure because one hates the world ... whereas for sinners they treat 'religion' as a necessary chore , little realising that religion of sinners cannot save anyone from anything except from the truth of God and from becoming loving, ceasing from sin...

The third heaven is timeless immortality of the spirit, the final rest with God as one being, one life immortal, but the two earths are real physical earths in which men have bodies moved by their spirit to do good or evil... just as God requires for His purpose in creating them

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Men will not understand how God issues evil from his mouth though , so how could they understand that the first earth is the darkness of night whereas the second earth is the light of day, still less that darkness and light BOTH serve God's purpose ad are alike to Him for that reason, although completely opposite in nature :-

Psalms 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

 

[stranger]

It looks like there's a simultaneous baptism going on, not three separate ones...

Nay my friend, follow Jesus' in his baptisms, first the water, then the spiri, then the 'fire' [trial] ...

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The trial is called 'blood' because trial of faith is to the death , as with Jesus , and the 'blood' is the life ...

 

[stranger]

Um, show them. Stop with the claims, you're not proving anything except how unwilling you are to back your claims...

I don't think you understand, I cannot teach you anything, only the scripture can, thus I cannot do more than get you to see what it says to me... these are not my 'claims' they are simply what I read in scripture and put up here for discussion to see if otherss reading the same scripture saw other things in these words ... I cannot get you to read the words though in your own bible and get back to me about what you see they mean having 'discussed' it with God in prayer of yearning and meditation...

We will get nowhere if you just keep repeating what siners taught you to say about scripture... you need to read the quotes for yourself without pre-judging what they mean from teachings of others...

I did not come here to teach or preach or 'convert'. I am uninterested in such things because only saints can do them, I cannot do them as a siner still ... so please just discuss the scriptures , I am not asserting anything except my beliefe that they may be right and do say something to me which i should like to discuss here...

But of course I do not know how much you have learned from books and preachings of sinners before even beginning to read the scriptures ,and you seem to understand he scriptures in light of well-known teachings by sinners... God's word is simply not for abuse as support for private interpretation of it by anyone, let alone by sinners ... so the idea of it is to REPROVE to it, to exhort each other by its words,... there are limits though to what one can write in this medium , so one must start by seeing what the othere agrees with first and what he disagrees with, then we can see which scriptures to explore, it is thus an interactive process and sequential, we start from what we have gleaned and then focius on what we have diffreneces over, but not on asserting that we are right, god forbid and save us from that, but on reproving our beliefs to the scripture, so that they become agreement in the one truth that God asserts the scroipture as a whole to be ...

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Thus please be more patient with my attempt to cover the ground efficiently, it will pay in the end... please also be assured that I have no desire to change your beliefs or teach you mine, only to reprove mine to those of God ... and if you want the same, more than to assert what you believed before uderstanding all the scripture first, then that is between you and God, it is no concern to me as a sinner ,until I am a saint that is... selah!

 

[CShephard53]

I don't see how you can have a debate if you don't even bother to read what the other one says...

Um, telling people they don't read doesn't get you far.

The 144,000 are just firstfruit saints, made perfec in this world through baptism of the spirit by grace under the new covenant with Israel [Heb 8:8-12]

That Scripture does not say that. I don't know why you're trying to say that it does.

The MANY saved afterward [Rev 7:9-10] are thus not redeemed at Jesus' return else they would be numbered among the firstfruit few, instead we know that this many are saved after destruction in death because they took the broad way ....

Firstfruit: where is that? Show me where it ever says that the 144000 are the firstfruits as you claim.

Thus destruction in death is not the end of redemption at all, but simply the main alternative to grace, for the many... which is thus why grace is offered only to those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9] :-

Grace is offered freely to everyone. Ephesians 2:8-10.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

That is not saying they do not sin.

The first phase is the redemption of the few who find te narrow way in this earth, the first fruits of teh spirit sealed now i spirit baptism m who have ceased to be sinners in time for their death or Jesus' return [whichever is sooner] ... this then the 144,000 of Rev 7:3-4 and their seal is to cease from sin because they are baptised to know all truth [John 16:13] long enough before death to be able to perfect their love in precious trial of faith [baptism of fire]

Joh 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

The Spirit cannot contradict what God and Jesus have revealed in Scripture. And your verses don't say what you're saying at all, that's not just my interpretation. You'd have to read into the verse to say anything even close to what you're claiming.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

I've already been there. You've neglected to address it. I'm not going to say it again. It is impossible for anyone to be sinless this side of heaven. It is not talking about all sin.

Read it this time , tell me if you think it doesn't say that the SEAL of God is that they CEASE TO SIN

I have read every Scripture reference you've put forth. Stop accusing me of not reading. You have no idea what I've read or haven't read. None of those Scriptures say what you claim they say. They don't come close.

Those saved next are saved after these few [Rev 7:9-10] and are inumerably many , thus they came by the BROAD way, throuh destruction in death, not by grace , and so cannot be released from hell and death until the second resurrection ... but God has promised them baptism of the spiriit [Joel 2:28], thus being feed fromm sin by death, they can and do live righteously as MANY saints in the new earth :-

Neither of your Scripture references so much as hint at that. Therefore, you have an unbacked claim and an unbacked interpretation.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Yeah. Your point being?

Thus inumerably many are saved once hell and death give up the many, but they could not be reurrected at the first resurrection because they died sinners in this life , not saints perfected in love ...

Give up the many? Where does it say that the people going to hell get out?

We see then that god requires the few who will be the priests and kings in His kingdom to be redeemed first, and it is rather clear why, they are priests and kings who need to be ready at the strat to minister and rule... so the many are saved later as we know, few find the narrow strait way now...

Please show where in Scripture it says you can be saved after you are on your way to hell when you die. And don't give me junk about how hell is going to be thrown into the lake of fire, either. It all ends up in the same place.

The final stagein God's plan is the lake of fire, which you are far from ready to discuss yet... we shall discuss it later as there is enough material to absorb from scripture here already , for now... so much to reprove to God's word because you already took your beliefs from sinners before reading and understanding all that God says in scripture ... common enough mistake, but it is exactly how Satan deludes 'all the earth ' [Rev 13:3-8]

Accuse my interpretation of being wrong? From sin? Do you know me at all? You cannot understand all of what God says this side of heaven. And saying I'm not ready for something doesn't give you any credibility.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Yeah, and I'm either in it or thinking about it every day. What's your point?

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Imagine that, you know how to take Scripture out of context and apply it to a different situation...

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[stranger]

Iniquity:
G458
ἀνομία
anomia
Thayer Definition:
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
Part of Speech: noun feminine

Purposeful, in other words.

Nay my friend, it can be purposeful , but breaking the law of love can easily be done through ignoprance or denial of the truth without purposing evil , just through being anaware, not acknowledging one's heart of love and one's conscience in all things because one has become accustoimed to do that because of the world's ways one learned in it... it is still sin even if one cannot yet acknowledge it as such , God will however point it out eventually, one will give account of everything one ever did... the pain of it ... eech !!!

Sin is even institutionalised in our societies , it has been 'automated' , injustice made into our law of living by the woprld's standards... it is still sin even though almost all the world does it

An entertaining animation to show how insidious injustice and sin is, that we accept it every day as normal ,cannot buy or sell without it in our brains and actions :-

http://tinyurl.com/2uoexg

 

[stranger]

Um, telling people they don't read doesn't get you far.

The 144,000 are just firstfruit saints, made perfect in this world through baptism of the spirit by grace under the new covenant with Israel [Heb 8:8-12]

That Scripture does not say that. I don't know why you're trying to say that it does.

I am only suggesting that you read the scripture precisely because you do not think it says this when it does, and yet when I explain where it says it you say that I am saying it from myself ... Let me try just once more, but you really need to read it in your own bible , you have some aversion to my pointing at it, want somehow to believe it is not there without looking to see... you will never see what you do not want to see because you already made up your mind it isn't there ! Eyes to see, ears to hear ... eye -salve... ring any bells at all???

You will never assemble scripture into one truth if you do not want to do so, but only want to abuse it by making it say what you already decided it must be saying... it is for CORRECTION, not to support all the private interpretation sinners put on it and preach to the gullible many who do not think that they have time to check on what they are told to believe by sinners [not saints!]

Firstfruit: where is that? Show me where it ever says that the 144000 are the firstfruits as you claim.

One day you will read the thirty or sdo references to firstfruits in the ot and understand what they are talking about, until ten perhaps I can point at some of the NT scriptures which you may accept [or not] ...

Rev 14:1 ¶ And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us[saints?] with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves [saints?] also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

Romans 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

So what am I tto conclude when you say vehemently that you have read the scripture and it is not there, there it is , from jesus' own mouth, in writing in YOUR bible, not my words... I do not know what to say except that you DID NOT READ IT or have 'forgotten' or denied it , what else can I say ??? You are mistakemn, it is written in scripture and it is Jesus' own revleation from God that it is so.

Grace is offered freely to everyone. Ephesians 2:8-10.

At least raed the whole paragraph , from verse 1 below , it specifically says it is talkking about those who have been 'quickened' by baptism of the spirit... the saints who are no longer dead in sin because they have been given grace to be able to put past sin behind them and not continue in sin, but perfect their love as saints , depart from sin completely, be perfect as the father is perfect :-

1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Who then are the first according to Jesus in Rev 7:3-8 ? and who come after this in Rev 7:9-10 ?

Only the first fruits of the spirit, the 144,000 are redeemed fisrt, at Jesus' return , then , and rather clearly i think they are FEW in number, the few who find the narrow way [of sainthood in this life, through grace]

But the many we KNOW go by the BROAD way [Matt 7] , so they are destroyed in death ,since they are not given grace and remnain sinners whhose wages are death for sin... why? simply because one can only be freed of sin by grace or death, and only the few of the few will not see death because they happen to be saints who are still alive when Jesus resurrects the other 144,000 and then translates the whole 144,000 to spirit ... only those very few of the few actually need grace , everyone else is freed from sin by death...

thus , raeding the new covenant in which god promises grace, it is only offered to those whose fathers broke the old covenant, so read it please -Heb 8:8-9-

Again Jesus lists the firstfruit saints by the son of jacob from whom they are descended... these are then all israelites, but they are far from being all Jews... even most may be off the Northern kingdom, the House of Israel, not the House of Judah...

thus most of teh firstfruits will have been living as gentiles at the time of their baptism, never having followed Judaism, neither they nor their ancestors, yet they are truly descended from Jacob whm God re-named Israel...

 

[stranger]

Give up the many? Where does it say that the people going to hell get out?

I already showed you, but you could have read it for yourself :-

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

the righteous men living in the new earth are thus judged by works, not grace and there are countless amny saved then , but long after Jesus' return and not by grace ...

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[CShephard53]

Nay my friend, follow Jesus' in his baptisms, first the water, then the spiri, then the 'fire' [trial] ...

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The trial is called 'blood' because trial of faith is to the death , as with Jesus , and the 'blood' is the life ...

Yeah, show that they're separate. Really. You've quoted that before, it doesn't say that they're separate.

I don't think you understand, I cannot teach you anything, only the scripture can, thus I cannot do more than get you to see what it says to me... these are not my 'claims' they are simply what I read in scripture and put up here for discussion to see if otherss reading the same scripture saw other things in these words ... I cannot get you to read the words though in your own bible and get back to me about what you see they mean having 'discussed' it with God in prayer of yearning and meditation...

We will get nowhere if you just keep repeating what siners taught you to say about scripture... you need to read the quotes for yourself without pre-judging what they mean from teachings of others...

I did not come here to teach or preach or 'convert'.

Great, that's not the purpose of debate anyway.

I am uninterested in such things because only saints can do them,

Good thing I'm a saint then...

I cannot do them as a siner still

So you don't have faith in God? You haven't repented? You haven't confessed? Sorry to hear that, I have.

... so please just discuss the scriptures

Kinda hard to do that when you ignore the original language...

, I am not asserting anything except my beliefe that they may be right

May be? I stand by the conviction that the Scriptures ARE right.

and do say something to me which i should like to discuss here...

I should think you'd like to respond to what I've written. All of it, not just bits and pieces. See, when in a debate, you respond to all of the oppositions claims so you have more validity.

But of course I do not know how much you have learned from books and preachings of sinners before even beginning to read the scriptures ,and you seem to understand he scriptures in light of well-known teachings by sinners... God's word is simply not for abuse as support for private interpretation of it by anyone, let alone by sinners ... so the idea of it is to REPROVE to it, to exhort each other by its words,... there are limits though to what one can write in this medium , so one must start by seeing what the othere agrees with first and what he disagrees with, then we can see which scriptures to explore, it is thus an interactive process and sequential, we start from what we have gleaned and then focius on what we have diffreneces over, but not on asserting that we are right, god forbid and save us from that, but on reproving our beliefs to the scripture, so that they become agreement in the one truth that God asserts the scroipture as a whole to be ...

You really like that word, don't you? Sinners. It gives you no additional credibility, and fyi I don't follow people. I follow the Bible, God's Word. If something I believe happens to be echoed by others, peachy. But that doesn't mean I go by them.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You really like that verse, don't you? So do I.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Great.

Thus please be more patient with my attempt to cover the ground efficiently, it will pay in the end... please also be assured that I have no desire to change your beliefs or teach you mine, only to reprove mine to those of God ... and if you want the same, more than to assert what you believed before uderstanding all the scripture first, then that is between you and God, it is no concern to me as a sinner ,until I am a saint that is... selah!

Yeah, but you've made claims. The burden of proof is on you to back those claims.

 

[CShephard53]

I already showed you, but you could have read it for yourself :-

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

the righteous men living in the new earth are thus judged by works, not grace and there are countless amny saved then , but long after Jesus' return and not by grace ...

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Where does this state that they avoid eternal punishment? Where does it state that they escape hell? Hell = eternal punishment in popular terms.

 

[CShephard53]

I am only suggesting that you read the scripture precisely because you do not think it says this when it does, and yet when I explain where it says it you say that I am saying it from myself ...

With NO evidence at all, you say that this says that.

Let me try just once more, but you really need to read it in your own bible , you have some aversion to my pointing at it, want somehow to believe it is not there without looking to see...

Accusations have no place in debate unless they are backed. I have no aversions except when you repeatedly ignore claims with evidence and state, restate, and state again certain references. You don't need to copy paste one verse 3 times in one post.

you will never see what you do not want to see because you already made up your mind it isn't there ! Eyes to see, ears to hear ... eye -salve... ring any bells at all???

Ad hominem, and unbacked accusations have no place in debate.

You will never assemble scripture into one truth if you do not want to do so, but only want to abuse it by making it say what you already decided it must be saying...

Let me be clearer: Accusing people of willful ignorance when you yourself have not backed YOUR OWN claims has no place and is called ad hominem- attacking the person or their character rather than their claims or argument. It is a fallacy.

it is for CORRECTION, not to support all the private interpretation sinners put on it and preach to the gullible many who do not think that they have time to check on what they are told to believe by sinners [not saints!]

Really, just because a sinner says or writes something does not make it automatically false. If that were the case, the entire discussion we're having is completely pointless.

One day you will read the thirty or sdo references to firstfruits in the ot and understand what they are talking about, until ten perhaps I can point at some of the NT scriptures which you may accept [or not] ...

Right.

Rev 14:1 ¶ And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Yes, the first fruits.
aparchē
Thayer Definition:
1) to offer firstlings or firstfruits
2) to take away the firstfruits of the productions of the earth which was offered to God. The first portion of the dough, from which sacred loaves were to be prepared. Hence term used of persons consecrated to God for all time.
3) persons superior in excellence to others of the same class
Part of Speech: noun feminine

Tell me: Where does it talk about these being the first to go to heaven?

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us[saints?] with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Where does this talk about Jews?

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves [saints?] also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Where does this talk about Jews? Or the 144000?

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Where does it mention Jews?

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

First fruits:
aparchē
Thayer Definition:
1) to offer firstlings or firstfruits
2) to take away the firstfruits of the productions of the earth which was offered to God. The first portion of the dough, from which sacred loaves were to be prepared. Hence term used of persons consecrated to God for all time.
3) persons superior in excellence to others of the same class
Part of Speech: noun feminine

That word is repeated twice whenever it's used- same word as above. Where does it reference Jews?

Romans 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

What Bible are you using?
Rom 16:5 also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia.

So what am I tto conclude when you say vehemently that you have read the scripture and it is not there

I asked where it was. I did not deny that firstfruits is never in the Bible. I asked specifically where it says they go first, per your claims.

, there it is , from jesus' own mouth, in writing in YOUR bible, not my words...

Yet your words claim that the 144000 go to God first- go to heaven first. You have not presented a single Scripture that backs this.

I do not know what to say except that you DID NOT READ IT or have 'forgotten' or denied it , what else can I say ???

Charges of denial when you do not present Scriptures that back your claims don't get you anything except a loss of credibility. Both in the eyes of your opponent, and in the eyes of the audience. Saying I did not read it gets you nowhere, saying I have forgotten it might. But you did not present anything in backing to your claim that the 144000 are the firstfruits until now. And you've yet to back the claim that they get zapped up first.

You are mistakemn, it is written in scripture and it is Jesus' own revleation from God that it is so.

The 144000 being the firstfruits is. You've yet to show if and where they get zapped up first, as you've claimed.

At least raed the whole paragraph , from verse 1 below , it specifically says it is talkking about those who have been 'quickened' by baptism of the spirit...

Um, nowhere is quickened in the original language.

the saints who are no longer dead in sin because they have been given grace to be able to put past sin behind them and not continue in sin, but perfect their love as saints , depart from sin completely, be perfect as the father is perfect :-

It is not talking about complete sinlessness. You need to read what I've written if you are still making that claim. I've proven, so far beyond reasonable doubt, that your claim is wrong. You have yet to prove/show otherwise.

1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

That's the NASB. It's not in any other version I have, except that they claim it's implied- the 'hath he quickened' part.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Really, stop quoting verses that you claim say one thing when they say another.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I already addressed that, and you have ignored it.

Who then are the first according to Jesus in Rev 7:3-8 ? and who come after this in Rev 7:9-10 ?

That's talking about them being sealed, not going to heaven... from the sounds of it, the multitude is already IN heaven.

Only the first fruits of the spirit, the 144,000 are redeemed fisrt, at Jesus' return

WHERE IS THAT?

, then , and rather clearly i think they are FEW in number, the few who find the narrow way [of sainthood in this life, through grace]

WHERE IS THAT? You've said maybe a couple thousand before. WHERE IS THAT?

But the many we KNOW go by the BROAD way [Matt 7] , so they are destroyed in death

Where does it say they're destroyed? Back your claims.

,since they are not given grace and remnain sinners whhose wages are death for sin... why?

Those who do not have faith, who do not repent, who do not confess- these are not given grace. Revelation 21:8, but 3-8 for context.
simply because one can only be freed of sin by grace or death, and only the few of the few will not see death because they happen to be saints who are still alive when Jesus resurrects the other 144,000 and then translates the whole 144,000 to spirit ...

only those very few of the few actually need grace , everyone else is freed from sin by death...

Few need grace? Have you ever read Romans? Romans 3?
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
Rom 3:14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
Rom 3:17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

thus , raeding the new covenant in which god promises grace, it is only offered to those whose fathers broke the old covenant, so read it please -Heb 8:8-9-

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
Heb 8:9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.

Where does it say that only these are offered grace, as you've claimed?

Again Jesus lists the firstfruit saints by the son of jacob from whom they are descended... these are then all israelites, but they are far from being all Jews... even most may be off the Northern kingdom, the House of Israel, not the House of Judah...

Where?

thus most of teh firstfruits will have been living as gentiles at the time of their baptism, never having followed Judaism, neither they nor their ancestors, yet they are truly descended from Jacob whm God re-named Israel...

Where?

Nay my friend, it can be purposeful , but breaking the law of love can easily be done through ignoprance or denial of the truth without purposing evil

Read what I posted. Seriously.

, just through being anaware,

Not given the context of the verses.

not acknowledging one's heart of love and one's conscience in all things because one has become accustoimed to do that because of the world's ways one learned in it... it is still sin even if one cannot yet acknowledge it as such , God will however point it out eventually, one will give account of everything one ever did... the pain of it ... eech !!!

Point? Is there one?

Sin is even institutionalised in our societies , it has been 'automated' , injustice made into our law of living by the woprld's standards... it is still sin even though almost all the world does it

Satan's in control right now. Stating the obvious, what's your point?

An entertaining animation to show how insidious injustice and sin is, that we accept it every day as normal ,cannot buy or sell without it in our brains and actions :-

Whoopdidaydadoo. That proves nothing.

http://tinyurl.com/2uoexg

I do not have time to watch a 47 minute video.

 

[stranger]

Yeah, show that they're separate. Really. You've quoted that before, it doesn't say that they're separate.

No need, Jesus already showed us that the three baptisms are separate , you should read about it I think , and this is the second time I have told you this and still you refuse to read it in your own bible ...

 

[CShephard53]

No need, Jesus already showed us that the three baptisms are separate , you should read about it I think , and this is the second time I have told you this and still you refuse to read it in your own bible ...

Yet another unfounded accusation. I read the verse you quoted. I read it twice. I've addressed it twice. Unless you're talking about a Scripture you haven't stated, your accusation is false, as is your claim.

 

[stranger]

Good thing I'm a saint then...

Try the tests of sainthood written in your own bible , see if you pass them ... your witness to date perhaps doesn't seem to be complete truth of God [John 16:13] and you do not seem to know the future...

I wonder if you know what was worthy of such special note in Mary's annointing Jesus for his death , such that Jesus sadi it would be taught wherever the saints taught the true gospel [completely unlike the gospel taught by sinners in modern siner churches ... do you know the gospel of Jesus and of the kingdom even, can you say what it is ?

do you seek out the house of Israel as Jesus instructed the saints to do?

Do you teach other saints against what the new covenant states?

I know of more people who say they are saints than there are positions for saints, and most of them do not fit Jesus' statement of Rev 7:3-8 , so which tribe of Israel do you belong to ? [or which tribes do you not belong to if you do not know which you belong to]

Who is Melchizedek and what special relation has he to you?

Why do you claim to be a saint when the bible says that the saints will simply never do that since it is God alone who judges who has not sinned too much too long ...

How did you perfect your love ?

do you cure people of their ills , restore sight to the blind, feed the poor?

Are you a "virgin" [Revelation 14:4] and if so in what way are you not a foolish virgin...?

One could go on of course, but the question is why did you not apply these tests and find out if you are not a saint by yourself, or by asking God, by calling on His name?

Do you know how to call on His name even? Whhat does it mean, how does one do it?

What is the strong delusion [2Thess 2] sent by God and what is it for
What is the role of Satan as the left-hand covering cherub and why are the two covering cherubs at the throne of God identical to look at ,but very different in role...

If you do not know the answers then how can you be ready to lay on hands, to judge that another is one of the few to be sanctified in this life?

 

[stranger]

So you don't have faith in God? You haven't repented? You haven't confessed? Sorry to hear that, I have

If one had faith in God then one would obey Him and stop sinning because one knew He was right about love being the only way ... as a sinner one is not a saint because one does not have complete faith in God to stop all sin , as Paul puts it [Rom 6] :-

How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
...
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

or as John puts it :-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil...

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

And Peter :-

2 Peter 2:10 ¶ But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness...
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin;

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps
22 who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Grace then for the few covers only sins before spirit baptism, it is no licenec to continue hiding and think that Jesus is some kind of whipping boy ... one is redeemed if one ceases to sin [Ezek 18:21] ,not if one continues a sinner...

Repentance comes AFTER baptism of the spiriit :-

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

rather obviously one cannot repent fully until God has unveiled all the truth about oneself which one lives in denial of ...

Thus pretending one has repented by just repenting a few things that come to mind is nothing like the full repentance on has once one has called o the name of God... equally one would know that God rejected one as a sinner if one called on the name of God [but many sinners have died from dong so, and not surprisingly]

One cannot confess either until one knows waht the christ is and what the antichrist is , else, like all who remain in sin, one is confessing the image created by Satan [Rev 13:3-8]

Thus it seems pertinent to ask what you think the Christ is ...?

 

[CShephard53]

Try the tests of sainthood written in your own bible , see if you pass them ... your witness to date perhaps doesn't seem to be complete truth of God [John 16:13] and you do not seem to know the future...

I wonder if you know what was worthy of such special note in Mary's annointing Jesus for his death , such that Jesus sadi it would be taught wherever the saints taught the true gospel [completely unlike the gospel taught by sinners in modern siner churches ... do you know the gospel of Jesus and of the kingdom even, can you say what it is ?

do you seek out the house of Israel as Jesus instructed the saints to do?

Do you teach other saints against what the new covenant states?

I know of more people who say they are saints than there are positions for saints, and most of them do not fit Jesus' statement of Rev 7:3-8 , so which tribe of Israel do you belong to ? [or which tribes do you not belong to if you do not know which you belong to]

Who is Melchizedek and what special relation has he to you?

Why do you claim to be a saint when the bible says that the saints will simply never do that since it is God alone who judges who has not sinned too much too long ...

How did you perfect your love ?

do you cure people of their ills , restore sight to the blind, feed the poor?

Are you a "virgin" [Revelation 14:4] and if so in what way are you not a foolish virgin...?

One could go on of course, but the question is why did you not apply these tests and find out if you are not a saint by yourself, or by asking God, by calling on His name?

Do you know how to call on His name even? Whhat does it mean, how does one do it?

What is the strong delusion [2Thess 2] sent by God and what is it for
What is the role of Satan as the left-hand covering cherub and why are the two covering cherubs at the throne of God identical to look at ,but very different in role...

If you do not know the answers then how can you be ready to lay on hands, to judge that another is one of the few to be sanctified in this life?

Why would I have to take and pass a test you created to be a saint?

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...d=Saints&section=2&version=nsn&new=1&oq=Saint

Go read all of those verses before you try to assume I'm not a saint...

 

[stranger]

Kinda hard to do that when you ignore the original language...

I do not ignore the original language , I have many reference books and a vast range of translations and am stugying Greek and Hebrew, also studying parallel usage of words in scripture to see what the words meant at the time of writing, which can be very different than their modern meaning [so you can easily be fooled by your curious faith in dictionaries , [and I wonder why a saint needs the scripture explined by a dictionary if God has baptised him to come to know all truth ? -John 16:13 - why you want to 'debate' at all if yo know all the truth ... and how on earth could a saint make the mistakes you do ? ]

Yeah, but you've made claims. The burden of proof is on you to back those claims.

I am simply trying to integrate the scripture into the uniquely-defined truth it claims to be, I make no claims of myself, but simply summarise what I have found so far... clearly it takes much work to show all the stages in the integration , so i start at the base and work up... but there is little point in spending time doing that with a saint because he would know already ,so i start with a summary and then go as deeply as required into how scripture leads to that ... that way , in principle ,one does not waste so much time ... but it is useless to even try with anyone who closed their minds BEFORE understanding every word ... clearly one cannot really believe scripture until one understands it, so people say that but simply and very obviously delude themselves , since when one investigates they are not the saints they claim to be at all ... one gets nowhere with those who think they know before understanding it all as one truth , they have fixed their beliefe and end up asserting it even against scripture written before their own eyes in their own bible... this is the extent of Satan's control over most men ... so you need to stop and see that you made mistakes, that you are not a saint but a sinnerm, that you still have things to learn and God has not revealed all truth toyou, nor is your love, humility, patience perfect... then we can progress with reproof of both our current positions closer to the scripture, else we are wasting our time... there is no point in 'debate' where any 'side' is trying to show they are right , rather the only thing taht makes sense is to co-operate in seeking to understand what scripture says ... here are no sides, there is no preconclusion , we start from knwoing taht as sinners we do not knoww, and are simply littel children trying to learn what Daddy has had written down because He won't talk to us if we are to be sinners still by Jesus' return ...