Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

[Apollo Celestio]

one of them had to be gay if you believe in a literal Adam and Eve... whence else diod the genetic component of homosexuality come from?

God created us using the same template as he did for animals, and our behaviour, biochemistry, psychology and sociology are all deeply coloured by our animal forebears. While I do certainly belief that God calls us to overcome our animal nature in many ways, I do not believe he asks us to do anything that is explicitly against our natures.

So if any trait occurs naturally in animals, I see no reason why the same trait isn't reasonably to be expected in humans.

Actually the "gay gene thing" as you so eloquently put it, is far more than just a dream, there is enough evidence extant to demonstrate a link between heredity and homosexuality, all that is required now is to isolate the specific codons involved and map their protein expression... but thats really only so much technicality... for all practical intents and purposes, quantitative studies have pretty much confirmed there is a genetic component to homosexuality.

Want links?

One of them had to be gay? What? How do you get this? There was no Eve before Adam, no other man either, what makes you think that he automatically was attracted to males? I would think he was asexual before he was homosexual. Either way, God made Eve, then instituted Marriage... That's crazy..

Gay gene, that's a scary thought, think of what people will do to find a cure, and people who "know" what you are, I think it will make life worse by finding something like that, whether it exists or not.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

A. The entire Bible is relevant. How we apply it is different (me being a gentile in the NT Church and all) but the principles still apply. This is especially true when we see the same issues addressed in the NT with the same results.

B. I can't change your mind/heart on how you view the authority of Scripture, that is the Holy Spirits job. You regularaly reject any Scriptures I post anyways.


C. Study for yourself to show yourself approved (as the Bible directs) and do not just lean on others. Personally, I look to the orginal language and its definitions...but you generally reject that as well.


D. Moral relativism leads to destruction and chaos...even more so when we lie to ourselves, allow others to lie to us, or refuse to listen to His small still voice calling us to better things. We are all guilty of this and none are without excuse. Whether we admit it or not, we do know better.

A. Could you answer the question please? Do you execute insolent children? Do you stone rape victims or force them to marry their attackers? All things the OT tells us to do... are these still appropriate ways to live life?

B. I don't think I reject any scripture... what I OBject to is people who post a huge chunk of scripture that isn't really relevent to the discussion at handwithout any supporting material, or explanation of how the said chunk supports their point

c. Great. Lets look to the original language and its definitions... if Paul is talking about homosexuals in the original Greek, why does he use Arsenokroites, rather than the usual Greek word for homosexuals

d.moral relativism be stuffed... thats a catchcry of people with no more logical debating points.

I can explain why rape is wrong. I can explain why murder is wrong. I can explain why theft is wrong. All without relying on the Bible. Thats NOT moral relativism, thats philosophy and ethics. I am unable to explain anything wrong about homosexuality. So is the Bible. Thats not moral relativism either, thats the Bible being less than perfect, and poorly written.

Now, if you want to explain why homosexuality is wrong in a way that doesn't just say "the Bible SEZ!" I am prepared to listen to you. However, I believe that Bible and logic and reason are what God wants us to understand him with... not just a slavish devotion to Biblical literalism

 

[EnemyPartyII]

"original sin" referes to the eating of the fruit and the fall. We are told that sin entered the world through Adam and we are condemned since birth because of it. It's in Romans. We are, in fact, called to deny our very nature, for it is sinful and at odds with God.


When science contradicts Scripture it is fiction, not fact. Yest, we are to use our brain and test all things but the Bible is the standard.


There is no empirical proof of a gay gene. The debate rages on in the scientific community.

I believe the Garden of Eden story is allegorical, not historical.

When science contradicts scripture, its fiction. OK, so, why 15 Billion light years worth of space in any direction, in a 5,000 year old universe?

There is lots of imperical evidence of a genetic component to homosexuality. debate rages, sure, but the debate amongst serious scientists is about how much genetics is responsible vs. how much environment is responsible for fiunal expression... not whether there is any component at all or not.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

One of them had to be gay? What? How do you get this? There was no Eve before Adam, no other man either, what makes you think that he automatically was attracted to males? I would think he was asexual before he was homosexual. Either way, God made Eve, then instituted Marriage... That's crazy..

Gay gene, that's a scary thought, think of what people will do to find a cure, and people who "know" what you are, I think it will make life worse by finding something like that, whether it exists or not.

I never said Adam was homosexual. I just said his sexual orientation was inherrent.

Honestly... the way you people misconstrue and add meanings to what people say that just aren't there!

But yes, if we believe in a LITERAL ADam and Eve, one of them MUST have been a carrier of the homosexual related genes, or else where did they come from?

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I never said Adam was homosexual. I just said his sexual orientation was inherrent.

Honestly... the way you people misconstrue and add meanings to what people say that just aren't there!

But yes, if we believe in a LITERAL ADam and Eve, one of them MUST have been a carrier of the homosexual related genes, or else where did they come from?

But the existence of a homosexual gene is questionable, a "gay" gene.. I just don't understand.. Can that be altered? Did God make this gene if it even exists?

 

[Floatingaxe]

Similar morality is pervasive in Judeo-Christian culture. In other cultures we witness a different moral ethic in various scenarios.

Morality as we experience it in this Judeo-Christian culture stems from God alone. Anyone who is an atheist and is deemed moral is only so because he has been steeped in the Christian ethic of this culture.

Those from other cultures manifest a separate morality--some similarity or crossover due to some historical Christian influence, but it stems from a godless culture.

 

[Zecryphon]

I believe the Garden of Eden story is allegorical, not historical.

When science contradicts scripture, its fiction. OK, so, why 15 Billion light years worth of space in any direction, in a 5,000 year old universe?

There is lots of imperical evidence of a genetic component to homosexuality. debate rages, sure, but the debate amongst serious scientists is about how much genetics is responsible vs. how much environment is responsible for fiunal expression... not whether there is any component at all or not.

"When science contradicts scripture, its fiction."

Why? Because science is always right? When I was in grade school, I was taught there were 9 planets. No ifs, ands or buts. Now, science tells us we have 8 planets. I'm always a tad bit skeptical when scientists say they know anything.

"OK, so, why 15 Billion light years worth of space in any direction, in a 5,000 year old universe?"

Where does the Bible say that the earth is 5,000 years old?

 

[Floatingaxe]

Who says the universe is only 5,000 years old? It says in Genesis that Earth was here already at the beginning. The universe had already been created many "moons" before. Eons, obviously.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

But the existence of a homosexual gene is questionable, a "gay" gene.. I just don't understand.. Can that be altered? Did God make this gene if it even exists?

can it (more likely THEY, as complex traits that involve gradations and variation are usually polygenic) be altered? presumeably.

SHOULD it (they) be altered? Terin lies the real question... IMHO probably not.

Did God make this (these) genes? Well, that depends on your understanding of God's involvement in creation, but the short answer, basically, as I understand it, is that if its in our genes, God either put it there, or let it evolve there... no third alternative in the Judeo-Christian matrix, is there?

 

[mont974x4]

A. Could you answer the question please? Do you execute insolent children? Do you stone rape victims or force them to marry their attackers? All things the OT tells us to do... are these still appropriate ways to live life?

B. I don't think I reject any scripture... what I OBject to is people who post a huge chunk of scripture that isn't really relevent to the discussion at handwithout any supporting material, or explanation of how the said chunk supports their point

c. Great. Lets look to the original language and its definitions... if Paul is talking about homosexuals in the original Greek, why does he use Arsenokroites, rather than the usual Greek word for homosexuals

d.moral relativism be stuffed... thats a catchcry of people with no more logical debating points.

I can explain why rape is wrong. I can explain why murder is wrong. I can explain why theft is wrong. All without relying on the Bible. Thats NOT moral relativism, thats philosophy and ethics. I am unable to explain anything wrong about homosexuality. So is the Bible. Thats not moral relativism either, thats the Bible being less than perfect, and poorly written.

Now, if you want to explain why homosexuality is wrong in a way that doesn't just say "the Bible SEZ!" I am prepared to listen to you. However, I believe that Bible and logic and reason are what God wants us to understand him with... not just a slavish devotion to Biblical literalism

How can I answer when I have no idea what part of the Bible you accept as true? I know you reject Paul's writings, which wipes out quite the chunk.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Similar morality is pervasive in Judeo-Christian culture. In other cultures we witness a different moral ethic in various scenarios.

Morality as we experience it in this Judeo-Christian culture stems from God alone. Anyone who is an atheist and is deemed moral is only so because he has been steeped in the Christian ethic of this culture.

Those from other cultures manifest a separate morality--some similarity or crossover due to some historical Christian influence, but it stems from a godless culture.

morality is built on the common good. Thats it. That it has been codified in religious terminology is neither here nor there... even if God literally handed morals to humans on stone tablets, it doesn't change the root cause of his commands, to assist us in our day to day lives.

I don't believe ANY law opf God's is ever totally arbitrary and without immediate, determinable import to humans.

Thats why I don't think any law against homosexuality comes from God.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

"When science contradicts scripture, its fiction."

Why? Because science is always right? When I was in grade school, I was taught there were 9 planets. No ifs, ands or buts. Now, science tells us we have 8 planets. I'm always a tad bit skeptical when scientists say they know anything.

"OK, so, why 15 Billion light years worth of space in any direction, in a 5,000 year old universe?"

Where does the Bible say that the earth is 5,000 years old?

science refines, gets closer to the correct answer. Isn't something that identifies errors and corrects them superior to something that is unchangeable yet error bound?

Well you tell me how old the universe is

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Who says the universe is only 5,000 years old? It says in Genesis that Earth was here already at the beginning. The universe had already been created many "moons" before. Eons, obviously.

Indeed? yet God created the stars only 3 days before he created humans (interestingly AFTER he created their light) some of those stars are 15 billion light years away... so, if humans only been around 5000 years, starlight has had max 5000 years and 3 days to get here, right?

 

[mont974x4]

Personally I bleiever ina literal Genesis and the earth is about 10,000 years old or so.




Science isn't science when it holds to false hoods despite evidence to the contray...see gloabl warming as an example. Theories come and go, but God and His truth never change.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

How can I answer when I have no idea what part of the Bible you accept as true? I know you reject Paul's writings, which wipes out quite the chunk.

I don't reject Paul's writings, I simply observe that they were written by a fallible human. A fallible human who, noteable, comments at the start of his letters that they are only his opinion.

What parts of the Bible do I think are true? Maybe a better question is what parts do I believe genuinely teach us about God's plan for us... that opens up a lot more of it... but the short answer... I believe the bits that are logically consistent, self consistent, and come from Jesus.

Hows that?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Personally I bleiever ina literal Genesis and the earth is about 10,000 years old or so.




Science isn't science when it holds to false hoods despite evidence to the contray...see gloabl warming as an example. Theories come and go, but God and His truth never change.

ok. And so the dinosaur skeletons are God's joke on the paleontologists, and the 15 billion years worth of space is his joke on the astronomers?

 

[Apollo Celestio]

can it (more likely THEY, as complex traits that involve gradations and variation are usually polygenic) be altered? presumeably.

SHOULD it (they) be altered? Terin lies the real question... IMHO probably not.

Did God make this (these) genes? Well, that depends on your understanding of God's involvement in creation, but the short answer, basically, as I understand it, is that if its in our genes, God either put it there, or let it evolve there... no third alternative in the Judeo-Christian matrix, is there?

True, if it exists, God must've ordained it, unless sin has more of an effect on us than we know. (Generational Curses from the old days perhaps?) I guess the ethical question would arise if one possessed it. Do we have the right to remove it? That dilemma be similar to trans-gendered or hermaphodites..or w/e it's called where the parents "decide" what gender that baby is. It would be interesting to see if sin had (or does/has) an effect on our genes.. I mean, we do "die" because of it..

 

[Zecryphon]

"original sin" is nothing more than God calling us to overcome our baser animal natures... thts it. Much simpler than believing we are still paying for the mistakes of some guy who ate an apple 5,000 years ago!

Scriptures please? Sorry, this is one of those "I have the comparative biochemical analyses, so I win" type things... remember, God gave us both the Bible AND the scientific method/enquiring minds

I am both an animal AND a spoecial creation of God. As are you.

The Bible is full of examples where he asks us to overcome the sinful part of our nature, yes... but never to go inherently against our natures... subtle, but distinct difference. See what I mean?

I DO believe humans are a special creation of God. I also believe tht God allowed us to evolve from animals, so is therefore presumeabley happy for us to have some baggage from our evolutionary journey.
Only thing that makes sense really... unless you believe God designed the total stuff up that is the human eye...

So if you've seen the scientific, objective data that clearly shows the link between homosexuality and genetics, why are you questioning it?

""original sin" is nothing more than God calling us to overcome our baser animal natures... thts it. Much simpler than believing we are still paying for the mistakes of some guy who ate an apple 5,000 years ago!"

Your summarization of the events in question is completely bogus. You will be held accountable for your sins, not the sins of Adam and Eve. However, as your parents, you do inherit your sinful nature from them. The Bible never gives a date for the events in the Garden of Eden. So there goes your 5,000 years. The Bible never states that the fruit that was consumed was indeed an apple. That is an artist's idea, not scripture. The fact that you believe you can overcome your baser animal natures, indicates that you believe in a works righteous faith and not Christianity. We are not saved by works, but by the grace of God through Christ. See Epheisians 2:8-9.

"Scriptures please? Sorry, this is one of those "I have the comparative biochemical analyses, so I win" type things... remember, God gave us both the Bible AND the scientific method/enquiring minds"

So you don't have any scriptures. Then we'll move on.

"I am both an animal AND a spoecial creation of God. As are you."

You share some characteristics with animals, but you are not one.

"The Bible is full of examples where he asks us to overcome the sinful part of our nature, yes... but never to go inherently against our natures... subtle, but distinct difference. See what I mean?"

The Bible tells you to deny yourself and your desires. That's not subtle, that's radical.

"I DO believe humans are a special creation of God. I also believe tht God allowed us to evolve from animals, so is therefore presumeabley happy for us to have some baggage from our evolutionary journey."

I'll have to find the article that deals with this. It explains why theistic evolution can not be an option.

"Only thing that makes sense really... unless you believe God designed the total stuff up that is the human eye..."

God did design the human eye and every other aspect of you. You have a designer. You are a product of design. You didn't evolve from anything. You were created.

"So if you've seen the scientific, objective data that clearly shows the link between homosexuality and genetics, why are you questioning it?"

The link is not clear and I do not believe what I have read. Besides, since this is coming from the scientific community, we all know that they will change their minds, when the evidence does not fit the hypothesis. They do it all the time. If the evidence does not fit, then the theory must change. Not the other way around. You don't change the evidence to fit the theory. Although that has happened in science hasn't it? Weren't there some hoaxes along the way?

 

[mont974x4]

You reject the consistent message that homosexuality, and all sexual immorality, is sin. It is only through God's grace that we don't reap the consequences.

 

[mont974x4]

Scientists can be wrong...see the flat earth idea for an example. Carbon dating has been shown to be inaccurate.


I don't doubt the existence of dino's.