Biblical Salvation

[cygnusx1]

I'm happy to assert, "Once you've really been saved, you're saved from then on." But then, at some point everyone believes that.

Everyone I know of believes that once you've passed through the Last Day to eternity, you have eternal life. No one I know of thinks you'll be condemned afterward.

They think "saved" means you get past that Final Judgment. Before that, to them you're not really saved.

For anyone in classic Christianity to claim they don't believe OSAS in this respect -- that is being dishonest with the forum.

But "OSAS" is a "branding", or a "smearing" if you really recognize what's going on there. That branding is almost invariably this: that someone who believes that if you once prayed a prayer or said a formula or had a faith experience, then you're saved and can now go about your business. As long as people brand that as "OSAS", then all you're really doing is jabbing the branding iron at other people who seem to have the same attributes from your point of view.

But if you get outside your point of view, things are different.

bravo Mikey !! you went right to the heart of it , and with a flash light!


Can the Arminian ever find peace , he never knows what his will will do next ......... he has a free-will that "JUST AS EASILY" chooses hell as heaven !!

.... that just as easily chooses life as death ,

...that just as easily chooses obedience as sin .......

.. to suggest this is not so , is to deny the 'no bias permitted free-will ' in the human heart ...... such an ugly dogma who would want it.

saved today , lost tommorrow!
Today a sheep tomorrow a goat.

 

[Oye11]

I'm happy to assert, "Once you've really been saved, you're saved from then on." But then, at some point everyone believes that.

Everyone I know of believes that once you've passed through the Last Day to eternity, you have eternal life. No one I know of thinks you'll be condemned afterward.

They think "saved" means you get past that Final Judgment. Before that, to them you're not really saved.

For anyone in classic Christianity to claim they don't believe OSAS in this respect -- that is being dishonest with the forum.

But "OSAS" is a "branding", or a "smearing" if you really recognize what's going on there. That branding is almost invariably this: that someone who believes that if you once prayed a prayer or said a formula or had a faith experience, then you're saved and can now go about your business. As long as people brand that as "OSAS", then all you're really doing is jabbing the branding iron at other people who seem to have the same attributes from your point of view.

But if you get outside your point of view, things are different.

If you view salvation as entirely a future event then you have a semantical point. However Calvinism clearly teaches that once born anew and placed in the body of Christ, eg. truly saved in a past or present tense it`s a done deal. Correct or no? And you should be able to answer me in a sentence or two.

 

[Oye11]

bravo Mikey !! you went right to the heart of it , and with a flash light!


.

The board cheerleader is on a roll today. I had wondered about the means of accumulating those 46,000 posts...

 

[Oye11]

Can the Arminian ever find peace , he never knows what his will will do next ......... he has a free-will that "JUST AS EASILY" chooses hell as heaven !!

The Church never taught this notion of OSAS, or once regenerate always regenerate, whatever you want to call it, until John Calvin. Believers believed otherwise for 1500 + years before Arminius was born. How could God possibly deny his Church this soothing doctrine, the feeling and knowledge that salvation could never be lost all that time? Well, because it is a lie, sort of like the lie the serpent told Eve. And it`s contracted by the founder of the Reformation himself by the way.

 

[cygnusx1]

The board cheerleader is on a roll today. I had wondered about the means of accumulating those 46,000 posts...

jealousy will get ya nowhere bro !

 

[heymikey80]

If you view salvation as entirely a future event then you have a semantical point. However Calvinism clearly teaches that once born anew and placed in the body of Christ, eg. truly saved in a past or present tense it`s a done deal. Correct or no? And you should be able to answer me in a sentence or two.

Simple answer? No.

The more complicated answer is this: we have been justified, we are being sanctified, and we shall be glorified.

Each is an aspect of salvation. Each has saved us from something. But our salvation is not complete until we have been glorified. Yet it has been started, and it shall be completed. That's what God says. Why should I think differently?

"Once justified, always justified" is the proper response to OSAS.

Or in the closest sense it approaches OSAS: "If you're justified by God, you're glorified by Him." But that's Rom 8:29. Right?

 

[Oye11]

Simple answer? No.

The more complicated answer is this: we have been justified, we are being sanctified, and we shall be glorified.

Each is an aspect of salvation. But our salvation is not complete until we have been glorified.

"Once justified, always justified" is the proper response to OSAS.

Or in the closest sense it approaches OSAS: "If you're justified by God, you're glorified by Him." But that's Rom 8:29. Right?

Okay, once justified always justified will work, or once regenerate always regenerate. I`m sure you`d sign up for that. Some Calvinists such as Spurgeon taught the concept of salvation as a present or past event like most Evangelicals today. In any case I see yours as false doctrines based on several scriptures but most notably Hebrews 10-25-29 and 1 Corinthians 9-23-27 which especially contradict it in no uncertain terms. And the fact that any notion of OSAS is absent from Church history before Calvin doesn`t help either.

 

[cygnusx1]

The Church never taught this notion of OSAS, or once regenerate always regenerate, whatever you want to call it, until John Calvin. Believers believed otherwise for 1500 + years before Arminius was born. How could God possibly deny his Church this soothing doctrine, the feeling and knowledge that salvation could never be lost all that time? Well, because it is a lie, sort of like the lie the serpent told Eve. And it`s contracted by the founder of the Reformation himself by the way.

Okay, once justified always justified will work, or once regenerate always regenerate. I`m sure you`d sign up for that. Some Calvinists such as Spurgeon taught the concept of salvation as a present or past event like most Evangelicals today. In any case I see yours as false doctrines based on several scriptures but most notably Hebrews 10-25-29 and 1 Corinthians 9-23-27 which especially contradict it in no uncertain terms. And the fact that any notion of OSAS is absent from Church history before Calvin doesn`t help either.

St. Augustine: On the Gift of Perseverance​

This morning I finished reading St. Augustine’s Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance. What a great read. I love reading the fathers of the Church and Augustine soars above most of them. I wish every Roman Catholic would read this treatise by Augustine. If they did they would see how closely (mirror image) we Calvinists are doctrinally aligned with the great St. Augustine on the subjects of predestination and perseverance.

I highly recommend this work to all my Reformed brethren. It is not that long, and is a gold mind. Augustine deals with so many of the objections to predestination and perseverance that still comes up today. After more than 1,500 years, so many of the objections remain the same.

Read this treatise; you will not regret it.

Coram Deo,
Kenith


posted by Cajun Huguenot


http://cajunhuguenot1.blogspot.com/search?q=augustine

 

[heymikey80]

Okay, once justified always justified will work, or once regenerate always regenerate. I`m sure you`d sign up for that.

They're two different things, justified and regenerate, but yes I'm up for them.

Some Calvinists such as Spurgeon taught the concept of salvation as a present or past event like most Evangelicals today.

Salvation has aspects that are present, past and future.

In any case I see yours as false doctrines based on several scriptures but most notably Hebrews 10-25-29 and 1 Corinthians 9-23-27 which especially contradict it in no uncertain terms. And the fact that any notion of OSAS is absent from Church history before Calvin doesn`t help either.

So you think someone signed up to the covenant is undoubtedly saved, acc. Heb 10:25-29? Was every Israelite saved? If you believe that, then I have a lot less in common with you than I thought. Abraham is "the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised." Rom 4:11 "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." Rom 2:28-29 And so those set apart by the covenant are not those saved. Sorry, the two aren't the same group of people. Yes, those signed to the covenant but without faith -- they're going to be punished severely.

1 Corinthians 9:24 ... is talking about salvation? "Only one receives the prize"? Well if that's true, I'm not running! Seriously, 1 Cor 9:23-27 is not talking about salvation. But that's ... kinda obvious!

 

[Oye11]

Yep, have read part of that. Augustine in his late writings believed the gifts of salvation and perseverence to be separate, while encouraging believers to seek the latter.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

there is a difference between perseverance and preservation although ben mixing up these two words doesn't help .

Perseverance Of The Saints is Biblical , without Holiness no-one shall see the Lord , we are saved from sin , not saved in it. Only cheap gracers (OSAS) distort salvation unto Holiness.

Preserved ; we are preserved by God from destruction , He preserves within His saints the willingness to fight the good fight to confess sin and to seek grace to overcome sin.

amen

 

[cygnusx1]

St. Augustine: On the Gift of Perseverance

Chapter 14.—It is God’s Grace Both that Man Comes to Him, and that Man Does Not Depart from Him.



This grace He placed “in Him in whom we have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things.”35883588 Eph. i. 11. And thus as He worketh that we come to Him, so He worketh that we do not depart. Wherefore it was said to Him by the mouth of the prophet, “Let Thy hand be upon the man of Thy right hand, and upon the Son of man whom Thou madest strong for Thyself, and we will not depart from Thee.”35893589 Ps. lxxx. 17, 18. This certainly is not the first Adam, in whom we departed from Him, but the second Adam, upon whom His hand is placed, so that we do not depart from Him. For Christ altogether with His members is—for the Church’s sake, which is His body—the fulness of Him. When, therefore, God’s hand is upon Him, that we depart not from God, assuredly God’s work reaches to us (for this is God’s hand); by which work of God we are caused to be abiding in Christ with God—not, as in Adam, departing from God. For “in Christ we have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things.” This, therefore, is God’s hand, not ours, that we depart not from God. That, I say, is His hand who said, “I will put my fear in their hearts, that they depart not from me.”35903590 Jer. xxxii. 40.


http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xxi.iii.xvi.html

 

[Oye11]

They're two different things, justified and regenerate, but yes I'm up for them.

Salvation has aspects that are present, past and future.

So you think someone signed up to the covenant is undoubtedly saved, acc. Heb 10:25-29? Was every Israelite saved? If you believe that, then I have a lot less in common with you than I thought. Abraham is "the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised." Rom 4:11 "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." Rom 2:28-29 And so those set apart by the covenant are not those saved. Sorry, the two aren't the same group of people. Yes, those signed to the covenant but without faith -- they're going to be punished severely.

1 Corinthians 9:24 ... is talking about salvation? "Only one receives the prize"? Well if that's true, I'm not running! Seriously, 1 Cor 9:23-27 is not talking about salvation. But that's ... kinda obvious!

Absolutely. Hebrews 10-25-29 speaks of those who have been sanctified and bought by the blood of Christ, yet turn away and the consequences are clear. These verses have always been interpreted in that manner until come the 16th C. and they proved a problem for someone`s systematic theology. Corithians 9? You are way off base. These are other verses that has been re-invented post 16th C. Here is a piece I wrote a while back. Perhaps you can attempt a systematic rebuttal.

As to Paul, he clearly did not see himself in a OSAS position. Let us look....

I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9-23-27

There is no clearer exposition in scripture and disavowal of the popular OSAS (once regenerate always regenerate, whatever you want to call it)

Note the key words.

"race...wreath (other translations "crown")

imperishable....disqualified."

Now let`s look at parallels.

The Race

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12- 1,2


Precisely what Paul is speaking of in 1 Corthinians 9, the salvation "race." In this case the author of Hebrews says to "lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily intangles us." Paul in Corinthians 9 says "I discipline my body and make it my slave"...


The "wreath" or crown that is "imperishable"

Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Rev 2-10,11

Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive THE CROWN OF LIFE that God has promised to those that love him. James 1-12

Notice "to those that love him." This crown is not some special reward for exceptional Christians as Dispensationalist/Antinomians would like us to believe. If you miss this crown you miss final salvation! It is for "those that love him."

Disqualified

Many set on sticking to OSAS want us to believe that Paul is talking about being "disqualified" from his preaching ministry. Yet Paul speaks of running the salvation race and is concerned about becoming undisciplined and "disqualified" for final salvation or "the prize" or "wreath" that is "imperishable." The word translated "disqualified" is the Greek "adokimos" and in every single case in the N.T. is used in the context of the hellbound.

Here are two notable examples

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. Hebrew 6-8

And in other correspondence to the Corinthians

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Corinthians 13-5

The evidence couldn`t be any more clear. The Apostle Paul was not living his Christian life in the context of OSAS. He viewed himself in a race that must be finished while acknowledging the hazards of giving into the flesh along the way and the potential lose of salvation. And his statements are well consistent with the tone of the N.T. as a whole and it`s forward focus on remaining in the faith.

 

[heymikey80]

Yep, have read part of that. Augustine in his late writings believed the gifts of salvation and perseverence to be separate, while encouraging believers to seek the latter.

"36. The Preaching of the Gospel and the Preaching of Predestination the Two Parts of One Message." -- Augustine, chapter heading

It's interesting how this keeps jumping from one assertion to the next, as each is found to be in error. First that perseverance was never taught until Calvin (which CygnusX1 refuted). Now a new assertion that salvation and perseverance are separate (which Augustine spends a few paragraphs showing they're one message).

I think we should collect this path together, what do you say?

 

[cygnusx1]

Can't Stop Discussing Perseverance


here a brother from CF Semper Reformander shows the problems of relating OSAS and the doctrine of The Perseverance Of The Saints (held by the Reformed & Puritans)


he writes

I am once again in a discussion of "perseverance" on the Semper Reformanda section of Christian Forums. Earlier I was discussing it with Calvinists who had mixed up the idea of perseverance with "once saved, always saved" (OSAS). Now I'm discussing it with a couple of Roman Catholics (one who is Augustinian) who assume that Reformed perseverance is no more than OSAS.

Here is my latest post:
Ok; so far we have several verses presented that clearly teach that one can not be lost if they are called by the Father. All those who are called in this way are not lost and will not be lost. They will persevere in the faith until the end. Calvin certainly believed this, as did St. Augustine.
WR presented 12 verses that he says contradict the perseverance teaching of Calvinists because, according to WR, “All of them clearly affirm the reality of “apostasy.’”

Here again we find that WR does not understand Reformed thought. Reformed Christians clearly believe in apostasy. The Scriptures themselves give us examples of apostasy, and we find countless about apostasy in both the Old and New Covenants.

http://cajunhuguenot1.blogspot.com/search?q=augustine

 

[Oye11]

It's interesting how this keeps jumping from one assertion to the next, as each is found to be in error. First that perseverance was never taught until Calvin (which CygnusX1 refuted).

Who said anything about "perseverence" not being taught? I just do not believe it is insituted by irresistible divine means. My source also argues that Augustine taught that initial salvation and peseverence are separates giflts and thus the former does not necessitate the later. That`s against your OSAS and I`ll call it that because I do not believe you can be born again and not saved. I`ll look up the quotes, link is in my favs somewhere but the rest of the day is full. In the meantime take a shot at my writeup on 1 Cor 9-23-27.

 

[Oye11]

Can't Stop Discussing Perseverance


here a brother from CF Semper Reformander shows the problems of relating OSAS and the doctrine of The Perseverance Of The Saints (held by the Reformed & Puritans)


he wtites

I am once again in a discussion of "perseverance" on the Semper Reformanda section of Christian Forums. Earlier I was discussing it with Calvinists who had mixed up the idea of perseverance with "once saved, always saved" (OSAS). Now I'm discussing it with a couple of Roman Catholics (one who is Augustinian) who assume that Reformed perseverance is no more than OSAS.

Here is my latest post:
Ok; so far we have several verses presented that clearly teach that one can not be lost if they are called by the Father. All those who are called in this way are not lost and will not be lost. They will persevere in the faith until the end. Calvin certainly believed this, as did St. Augustine.
WR presented 12 verses that he says contradict the perseverance teaching of Calvinists because, according to WR, “All of them clearly affirm the reality of “apostasy.’”

Here again we find that WR does not understand Reformed thought. Reformed Christians clearly believe in apostasy. The Scriptures themselves give us examples of apostasy, and we find countless about apostasy in both the Old and New Covenants.

http://cajunhuguenot1.blogspot.com/search?q=augustine

Cygnus when you gather the gumption to fomulate your own arguments and write your own material I`ll be more prone to devote time to you...

 

[cygnusx1]

Cygnus when you gather the gumption to fomulate your own arguments and write your own material I`ll be more prone to devote time to you...

sure if I had more time , you do realise that most of these issues have been dealt with in these boards over the years ?

You argue Calvin was the first to argue for POS , I quoted Augustine , but hey if I only write my own stuff then you could say (and you will) anything you like about the past without any examination and correction , sorry no free passage here


when men make it theri aim to argue not simply over a doctrine but over a whole scholastic historic sytematic Christian theology , you bet I am going to find quotes !

 

[heymikey80]

Absolutely.

Hopefuly not on the basis of what follows in this posting.

Hebrews 10-25-29 speaks of those who have been sanctified and bought by the blood of Christ, yet turn away and the consequences are clear.

And so did I. Didja pick up on that? No?

These verses have always been interpreted in that manner until come the 16th C. and they proved a problem for someone's systematic theology.

Well, check your dates. Systematic theology didn't become all the rage 'til a couple hundred years later.

In the meantime you can also explain why anyone was ever accepted back into the church after repenting (e.g., under Victor). The verse doesn't permit subsequent repentance on this interpretation. You're not appealing to lapsed Christians, then. Which is fine, bring 'em to us.

Corithians 9? You are way off based, another verse that has been re-invented post 16th C. Here is a piece I wrote a while back. Perhaps you can attempt a systematic rebuttal.

Systematic? How about realistic, will that do?

Note the key words.

"race...wreath (other translations "crown")

imperishable....disqualified."

Now let`s look at parallels.

As I mentioned long ago to Ben, "imperishable" doesn't make something "salvation". It simply makes it "imperishable".

Satan is imperishable. Does that mean he's salvation? No. It doesn't.

Not everything is about salvation. Not everything is soteriology.

Among the foremost exegete of Greek Scripture today, NT Wright, points out this has to be something additional to salvation. 1 Corinthians 9:1 says as much. Your injection of soteriology in this verse is entirely out of context. Paul doesn't just "dump" little prooftexts into Scripture.

He writes well. He writes consistently. And he writes with a reasoned focus. And he certainly doesn't allude to other books of a Bible that hasn't been compiled yet.

The Race

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12- 1,2

Like Hebrews. You'd need some reason to require the allusion. Otherwise you're just giving more examples how the words are used. You're not limiting anything.

Pointedly, are you saying this race is salvation? I would say it's life on this earth.

Precisely what Paul is speaking of in 1 Corthinians 9, the salvation "race." In this case the author of Hebrews says to "lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily intangles us." Paul in Corinthians 9 says "I discipline my body and make it my slave"...

They're both illustrated as races. There's no other connection you can make here. Move along.

The "wreath" or crown that is "imperishable"

Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Rev 2-10,11

Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive THE CROWN OF LIFE that God has promised to those that love him. James 1-12

Now we're pulling in quotations from people Paul himself didn't even get a chance to read. And we're expecting Paul to allude to them?

I can only guess where this theology is gonna go.

Disqualified

Many set on sticking to OSAS want us to believe that Paul is talking about being "disqualified" from his preaching ministry. Yet Paul speaks of running the salvation race and is concerned about becoming undisciplined and "disqualified" for final salvation or "the prize" or "wreath" that is "imperishable." The word translated "disqualified" is the Greek "adokimos" and in every single case in the N.T. is used in the context of the hellbound.

Of course you'll find the word meaning "unfit" in use this way. That doesn't mean it's always in use. "Pharisee" is often a pejorative term. But then what does Mt 5:19 mean by "unless your righteousness exceeds the Pharisee ..."? Clearly there's more behind the meaning of the word -- be it "Pharisee" or "unfit".

Or take "circumcision". Generally used negatively, Paul switches in Philippians, "we are the true circumcision". Does that mean we're the people who are causing such problems in Galatians, in Jerusalem and elsewhere for Paul?

No.

I'll read Scripture as if someone actually wrote it, thank you. I don't need to imply hidden meanings onto words.

 

[cygnusx1]

Clemens Romanus. A.D. 69.


Clement of Rome gives plain hints of the firmness of true faith, and the perseverance of the saints in it to the end. When addressing the members of the church at Corinth, he says?[1] “Who has dwelt among you, that has not had an experience of, or proved, ten panareton kai bebaian umon pistin, your all-powerful, and firm or stable faith?” He also observes,[2] that “whereas it is the will of God, that all whom he loves should partake of repentance, and so not perish with the unbelieving and impenitent, esterizen to pantokratoriko boulemati autou, ‘he has established it by his almighty will.’ But if any of those whom God wills should partake of the grace of repentance, should afterwards perish, where is his almighty will? And how is this matter settled and established by such a will of his?”