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A lineage of Popes in unbroken succession

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JacktheCatholic

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I think that we can look at the same letter here and interpret them the way you want or the way I want. Both can find backing. I think that when it comes to the schism with the Eastern church that this will be true at times.

For me I see that Pope Gregory I was seeing this title given to John to be above his position and he feared that John was thinking himself bigger then he is.

The reference to Universal seems to be used two different ways here also. Once we see Universal used with the Universal church. Both East and West agree on this. But when we see a title given to John, the Bishop of this region, as Universal we then see Pope Gregory I defend the meaning of Universal in regards to the Church and advise no one but Jesus can be Universal. Pope Gregory I see himself as the Apostolic See and the holder of the Keys but knows that this position is not on the same level as Jesus. That the Apostolic See is but the steward of Jesus' kingdom. Pope Gregory I warning John very harshly but Gregory I does not refute the Seat of Peter either.


HOWEVER, with that said, I can also see how you are reading as well.

If we are going to debate what Gregory I meant I am sure I can continue to support the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome. But I also know there will be little knots like this to support the Eastern church.

Interpretation...
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Notice he says, "Roman church," not "Roman Bishop?" None of these letters appear to be asserting any superiority of Peter at all.
Here we are at the jurisdictional dispute between Rome and Constantinople. It's not about the superiority of the bishops.

He also says "who can doubt that it is subject to the Apostolic See"

And what is the Apostolic See? It is the Pope.
 
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racer

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Again,

From Gregory the Great:

http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/938/Sound_Teaching_Avoids_Pride_Gregory_the_Great.html?PHPSESSID=7ec6dbc0ec2d88b2cb79b60791e9be9f

This excerpt from Saint Gregory the Great's Moral Reflections on Jobe (Moralia in Job Lib. 23, 23-24: PL 76, 265-266) is used in Roman Office of Readings on Wednesday in the 9th week in ordinary time, together with Job 32:1-6 and 33:1-22. It clearly explains the difference between teaching in a way that puffs up and teaching in a way that builds up. St. Gregory here demonstrates why he is known as one of the most insightful spiritual writers in the Catholic Tradition thereby coming to be called "the Great."


When Paul says to Timothy Command these things and teach them with all authority, he is not calling for a domination born of power but an authority that comes from a way of life. “Teaching with authority” here means living something first before preaching it; for when speech is impeded by conscience, the hearer will find it harder to trust what is being taught. So Paul is not commending the power of proud and exalted words, but the trustworthiness that comes from good behavior. This, indeed, is why it is said of the Lord, Unlike the scribes and pharisees, he taught them with authority. He alone spoke with unique authority because he had never, through weakness, done evil. What he had from the power of his divinity, he taught to us through the innocence of his humanity.
 
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racer

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He also says "who can doubt that it is subject to the Apostolic See"

And what is the Apostolic See? It is the Pope.
No one denies that each church has it's headquarters. Even the Assemblies of God churches. Its headquarters is:
National Headquarters

General Council of the Assemblies of God
1445 N. Boonville Avenue
Springfield, MO 65802-1894
Phone: 417-862-2781
So, what is your point?
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Again,

From Gregory the Great:

http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/938/Sound_Teaching_Avoids_Pride_Gregory_the_Great.html?PHPSESSID=7ec6dbc0ec2d88b2cb79b60791e9be9f

This excerpt from Saint Gregory the Great's Moral Reflections on Jobe (Moralia in Job Lib. 23, 23-24: PL 76, 265-266) is used in Roman Office of Readings on Wednesday in the 9th week in ordinary time, together with Job 32:1-6 and 33:1-22. It clearly explains the difference between teaching in a way that puffs up and teaching in a way that builds up. St. Gregory here demonstrates why he is known as one of the most insightful spiritual writers in the Catholic Tradition thereby coming to be called "the Great."


When Paul says to Timothy Command these things and teach them with all authority, he is not calling for a domination born of power but an authority that comes from a way of life. “Teaching with authority” here means living something first before preaching it; for when speech is impeded by conscience, the hearer will find it harder to trust what is being taught. So Paul is not commending the power of proud and exalted words, but the trustworthiness that comes from good behavior. This, indeed, is why it is said of the Lord, Unlike the scribes and pharisees, he taught them with authority. He alone spoke with unique authority because he had never, through weakness, done evil. What he had from the power of his divinity, he taught to us through the innocence of his humanity.

Yes. The teachings of Christ are to be in our hearts and not only in what we do.

If we only act out the part and our hearts are not participating then we are hypocrites.

This is something for every one living in flesh to be aware of.

But I am not sure how this pertains to a primacy of the Bishop of Rome???
 
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JacktheCatholic

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No one denies that each church has it's headquarters. Even the Assemblies of God churches. Its headquarters is:
National Headquarters

General Council of the Assemblies of God​

1445 N. Boonville Avenue​

Springfield, MO 65802-1894​

Phone: 417-862-2781​
So, what is your point?

The Apostolic See is Gregory I in these writings for he is the Bishop of Rome and thus in the Seat of Peter.

My point is that Gregory I is stating that all must be 'subject' to the Apostolic See. The use of this word 'subject' is similiarly used in regards to those that must obey a superior. The Apostolic See in this case is but one Bishop of them all that sits in the seat of Peter and holds the Keys.

That is my point and how I am reading it.
 
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racer

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This is THE question.

The defining of this has been an ongoing process since Jesus left us and gave us the Spirit of Truth to protect and help us recall.
You've been Catholic how long? The Truth has been defined and set in stone. The RCC claims sole possession of this truth. Now, they explain away apparent changes in RCC doctrine using the developed doctrine of the Doctrine of Developement.
The Church has constantly been seeking the truth and trying to define it. The early church was growing very quickly and things were not always as clear as they are today.
Where does the RCC presume to have gained the authority to define the Truth? If the Truth was entrusted to the RCC by Jesus, why would the RCC have been "seeking it?"
That is why the Bishops of differeing areas referred to Rome for answers when they had none. Like Matthew 18:17 they referred to the Church. When the local church could not answer it the priest or bishop went to the bishop of that region and when the bishop of that region could not answer it then the Bishop of Rome was asked.

We see this especially in the earlier church and they referred to Rome as the mother church. As things began to settle down and basics were understood I think Bishops of their regions could handle their church most all of the time.
Here's some information which applies to this assertion.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://aomin.org/Sermo131.html[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Augustine’s Sermon 131 [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Even less excusable is the constant use of Augustine’s comments in Sermon 131, quoted by Keating as "Rome has spoken; the case is closed." Keating puts these words in quotes, indicating that Augustine actually said this. He places it in the context of Papal Infallibility. It is clearly his intention to communicate to his readers that Augustine 1) said these words, and 2) was speaking about the subject in his sermon. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nothing could be farther from the truth. Augustine never said what Keating quotes. In fact, here is the actual Latin text of the final section of Sermon 131 from Migne, PL 38:734: [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jam enim de hac causa duo concilia missa sunt ad sedem apostolicam; inde etiam rescripta venerunt; causa finita est: Utinam aliquando finiatur error.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Translated, it reads, [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]. . . for already on this matter two councils have sent to the Apostolic See, whence also rescripts (reports) have come. The cause is finished, would that the error may terminate likewise. [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]. . . . The entire sermon is a presentation of the gospel of grace. And to give the proper context to the actual words of Augustine, read the sections that immediately precede his final statements: [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]. . . The final words of the sermon, then, in which we find the key phrase (placed in bold), are in reference to this heresy, this error (Pelagianism), and its denial of grace. I simply point out that throughout the sermon you have had one source of authority cited over and over again: Holy Scripture. No quotations of Popes or prelates, just Scripture. With this in mind, we come to the actual passage:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10. What then was said of the Jews, the same altogether do we see in these men now. "They have a zeal of God: I hear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." What is, "not according to knowledge"? "For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and wishing to establish their own, they have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." My Brethren, share with me in my sorrow. When ye find such as these, do not hide them; be there no such misdirected mercy in you; by all means, when ye find such, hide them not. Convince the gainsayers, and those who resist, bring to us. For already have two councils on this question been sent to the Apostolic see; and rescripts also have come from thence. The question has been brought to an issue; would that their error may sometime be brought to an issue too! Therefore do we advise that they may take heed, we teach that they may be instructed, we pray that they may be changed. Let us turn to the Lord, etc. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It is a measure of the utter desperation of the Roman position to have to make reference to such things, in our opinion. The topic is not the bishop of Rome nor the authority of Rome. It is obvious, beyond question, that Augustine’s point is that Pelagianism is a refuted error. It is not refuted because the bishop of Rome has refuted it. It is refuted because it is opposed to Scripture. Two councils have concluded this, and the bishop of Rome has agreed. From Augustine’s position, the error has been exposed and refuted. If only those who are in error would come to know the truth! Augustine exhorts his hearers to teach the gainsayers, and pray that they may be dissuaded from their errors. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This then is the context and content of Sermon 131 of Augustine (which is, btw, Sermon 81 in the Eerdman’s set, pp. 501-504 of volume VI for those who wish to read the entirety of the work). It is now painfully obvious that to place the words "Roma locuta est, causa finita est" in quotation marks and attribute them to Augustine in the context of Papal Infallibility is simply inexcusable. But, there is more to the situation than that. For history shows us that Augustine would never have uttered such words in the context Keating alleges. How he responded when Zosimus became bishop of Rome and attacked the North African churches for condemning Pelagius proves, to any person even semi-desirous of fairly dealing with Augustine’s position, that Augustine did not view the bishop of Rome as the infallible leader of the Christian Church. But to appreciate fully the depth of the error of Roman Catholic controversialists at this point, we must take a few moments to study the history.[/FONT]

But there came times of dispute or not knowing. In times like Arius when Chrisitans were seeing division and trouble the Roman authority ordered a meeting to settle it.
Like I've shown you, most churches have central office of "authority" to which the--for lack of a better word at the moment--satellite churches look to for regulation and guidance.
And it was Rome that put Arius in his place with the support of the other regions and theor bishops.
And I've given you examples where the Bishop of Rome was put in his place by other bishops.
But the defining of the Seat of Peter and the understanding of the Keys was not always clear to all the bishops or priests.
A fact that someone in the church to extreme advantage of and began the suggestion of Papal Supremacy. It is a completely man-made doctrine. It is not founded in Scripture, nor is it unquestionably and soundly substantiated in Christian History or tradition.
The Eastern and Oriental church in the first few centuries (and later) were least likely to be in communication with Rome and the cultures were more different then many of the West. I think this communication barrier caused some of the rift between and East and West because the East was liable to make their own decisions. It was good that the East stuck to their earliest teachings without change because they still hold a very good teaching that is in communion with Rome. But the East was not part of many of the insights in the defining of the Church and so they were not only seperated by distance and cultures but they became kind of locked in time (in my opinion).
Which is why there were such jurisdictional disputes between the East and West--the human weakness of Power hungry men.
My point is that the Church was growing and developing over time. In the very beginning the structure was loose because of the times but as the church grew and became accepted it needed to adapt as well. Which it did.
I simply do not know how to respond to this? You are basically saying it developed rules that suited the purposes the leaders perceived to be necessary. :scratch:
 
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racer

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The Apostolic See is Gregory I in these writings for he is the Bishop of Rome and thus in the Seat of Peter.

My point is that Gregory I is stating that all must be 'subject' to the Apostolic See. The use of this word 'subject' is similiarly used in regards to those that must obey a superior. The Apostolic See in this case is but one Bishop of them all that sits in the seat of Peter and holds the Keys.

That is my point and how I am reading it.
That does not matter. Gregory I did not consider the authority of the Apostolic See to be the same level or type of authority the RCC now claims for Rome. The letters I've provided prove that.
 
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racer

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From the critique by William Webster, speaking of St. Augustine:

He was a prolific writer and he has made numerous comments which relate directly to the issue of the interpretation of the rock of Matthew 16:18. In fact, Augustine made more comments upon this passage than any other Church father. At the end of his life, Augustine wrote his Retractations where he corrects statements in his earlier writings which he says were erroneous. One of these had to do with the interpretation of the rock in Matthew 16. At the beginning of his ministry Augustine had written that the rock was Peter. However, very early on he later changed his position and throughout the remainder of his ministry he adopted the view that the rock was not Peter but Christ or Peter’s confession which pointed to the person of Christ. The following are statements from his Retractations which refer to his interpretation of the rock of Matthew 16:


In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).

. . . Clearly Augustine is repudiating a previously held position, adopting the view that the rock was Christ and not Peter. This became his consistent position. He does leave the interpretation open for individual readers to decide which was the more probable interpretation but it is clear what he has concluded the interpretation should be and that he believes the view that the rock is Christ is the correct one. The fact that he would even suggest that individual readers could take a different position is evidence of the fact that after four hundred years of church history there was no official authoritative Church interpretation of this passage as Vatican One has stated. Can the reader imagine a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church today suggesting that it would be appropriate for individuals to use private interpretation and come to their own conclusion as to the proper meaning of the rock of Matthew 16? But that is precisely what Augustine does, although he leaves us in no doubt as to what he, as a leading bishop and theologian of the Church, personally believes. And his view was not a novel interpretation, come to at the end of his life, but his consistent teaching throughout his ministry. Nor was it an interpretation that ran counter to the prevailing opinion of his day.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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The Truth has been defined and set in stone. The RCC claims sole possession of this truth. Now, they explain away apparent changes in RCC doctrine using the developed doctrine of the Doctrine of Developement.

The Truth is unchanging or "set in stone" as you say.

The Catholic Church has never changed it's teaching of any particular matter. They have defined them at times but brought no change to them. They have even added to the deposit of the Faith with help of the Holy Spirit remembering things.

I have never found or heard of any teaching of the Catholic Church being changed.

There have been councils that were needed to define the teachings because many had fallen into error. Constaniople is but one of those times. But all they did was formally lay out the Apostolic Teachings as unchangable to the heretics.

But things like Papal Infallibilty are examples of developed and better understood truths. But with things like Papal Infallibility misconceptions are created outside of the Catholic Church and then taught as truths about Catholic Doctrine or Dogma when in facts they are either half truths or lies.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Where does the RCC presume to have gained the authority to define the Truth? If the Truth was entrusted to the RCC by Jesus, why would the RCC have been "seeking it?"

The Catholic Church teaches that the Spirit of Truth protects the teachings and helps us recall the teachings.

Gospel of John:
13 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. 15 Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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That does not matter. Gregory I did not consider the authority of the Apostolic See to be the same level or type of authority the RCC now claims for Rome. The letters I've provided prove that.

Prove???

They do not prove that.

They only prove that Gregory I believed that men should be humble at heart. That as leaders they needed to be even more humble at heart.

Gregory I has so many good teachings.

But I see no 'proof' against the Papacy. However, I do see where things he wrote could be used to show others that Gregory I did not believe in the Papacy. But then it would require assumption to do that.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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And I've given you examples where the Bishop of Rome was put in his place by other bishops.

And at the expense of excommunication for some and the threat of excommunication for others...
 
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JacktheCatholic

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. . . Clearly Augustine is repudiating a previously held position, adopting the view that the rock was Christ and not Peter. This became his consistent position. He does leave the interpretation open for individual readers to decide which was the more probable interpretation but it is clear what he has concluded the interpretation should be and that he believes the view that the rock is Christ is the correct one. The fact that he would even suggest that individual readers could take a different position is evidence of the fact that after four hundred years of church history there was no official authoritative Church interpretation of this passage as Vatican One has stated. Can the reader imagine a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church today suggesting that it would be appropriate for individuals to use private interpretation and come to their own conclusion as to the proper meaning of the rock of Matthew 16? But that is precisely what Augustine does, although he leaves us in no doubt as to what he, as a leading bishop and theologian of the Church, personally believes. And his view was not a novel interpretation, come to at the end of his life, but his consistent teaching throughout his ministry. Nor was it an interpretation that ran counter to the prevailing opinion of his day.


Clearly???

Jesus was told by Simon that he is the Messiah. Then Jesus tells Simon. who he is. He does this because God the Father gave that knowledge to Simon. Jesus says he is going to build his Church on a 'Rock' but before this he tells Simon he is "Kepa" for Jesus would have been speaking Aramaic and the word for rock is "Kepa".


MATTHEW 16
16 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." 20 Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah.
 
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BrightCandle

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Some people on these forums have questioned that there is no evidence of an "unbroken succession" from St. Peter until now. I would like to clarify that up with this:
St. Peter 67
St. Linus 67-76
St. Anacletus 76-88
St. Clement I, 88-97
St. Evaristus 97-105
St. Alexander I, 105-115
St. Sixtus I, 115-125
St. Telesphorus 125-36
St. Hyginus 136-40
St. Pius I, 140-55
St. Anicetus 155-66
St. Soter 166-75
St. Eleuterius 175-89
St. Victor I, 189-99
St. Zephyrinus 199-217
St. Callistus I, 217-22
St. Urban I, 222-30

And the list goes on in unbroken succession. All the way, 265 Popes later to Pope Benedict himself. :liturgy:

What you have proved is that the Papacy was given its power and authority from Pagan Rome, which is referred to in the the Bible texts below as the "dragon". When Pagan Rome fell, the Papal Rome was given the secular and religious authority of Rome, and still exists to this day.

Revelation 13

The Beast from the Sea

"1And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.

2And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority."
 
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JacktheCatholic

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What you have proved is that the Papacy was given its power and authority from Pagan Rome, which is referred to in the the Bible texts below as the "dragon". When Pagan Rome fell, the Papal Rome was given the secular and religious authority of Rome, and still exists to this day.

WHAT!?

That is false.

Where did you dig this little falicy up from?

THERE IS NOT ONE SHRED OF TRUTH TO THIS.

This is nothing more than ignorant anti-catholic rhetoric and most every one knows it.
 
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BrightCandle

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WHAT!?

That is false.

Where did you dig this little falicy up from?

THERE IS NOT ONE SHRED OF TRUTH TO THIS.

This is nothing more than ignorant anti-catholic rhetoric and most every one knows it.

History proves it very clearly. What power rose up after Pagan Rome fell? Papal Rome of course! Any historian worth his salt will tell you this. Even the notes in the older Catholic Bibles list identify Pagan Rome as the "dragon" beast of Revelation. And that "dragon" beast gave the Papacy their secular authority. Its a perfect fit.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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History proves it very clearly. What power rose up after Pagan Rome fell? Papal Rome of course! Any historian worth his salt will tell you this. Even the notes in the older Catholic Bibles list identify Pagan Rome as the "dragon" beast of Revelation. And that "dragon" beast gave the Papacy their secular authority. Its a perfect fit.

Rome did not give the Papacy any authority that I am aware of...

The Papacy has authority in the Church and of it's teachings on morals. But I do not recall any authority given the Papacy in regards to Rome itself in those days. And Rome was called Babylon by Peter in the New Testament so we can see that Rome was an evil place. But this attempt at saying pagan Rome is the dragon... I do not know what you are speaking of.

Maybe you can provide some sources. I pray they are not some anti-catholic site or author that will lie their butt off.
 
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