What ARE The Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven anyhow?

[LittleLambofJesus]

To resist the Church is to resist truth. When someone sets themselves up to interpret the scripture outside Church teaching, they are setting themselves above the Church.

Hi. How can the "church" interpret Scripture if the Scriptures aren't even translated accurately?

Reve 5:6 And I saw and behold! in midst of the throne and of the four living-ones/zwwn <2226> and in midst of the elders a lamb-kin standing, as having been slaughtered/esfagmenon <4969> (5772),

Reve 13:3 And one, out of the heads of it as having been slaughtered/esfagmenhn <4969> (5772) into death, and the blow/stripe of the death of it was healed, and marvels whole the land behind of the wild beast.

4969. sphazo sfad'-zo a primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally) to slaughter, or (specially), to maim (violently):--kill, slay, wound

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/lb/LB1.htm

According to the Emphatic Diaglott the correct rendering of the latter part of this passage is: "The Book of the Life of the Lamb." Now, what is meant by this term &#8211; THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB? The wise man said, "...of the making of many books there is no end..." (Eccl. 12:12). The book stores are filled to overflowing today with all types of books dealing with every aspect of earthly life. Even in the church world there are books setting forth every kind of viewpoint relating to God, the Bible, doctrine, Christian experience, and church order. However the subject material of most of these books largely contains a message of religious tradition and spiritual death............................

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves." Romans 13:1-2
This passage should be frightening to those who do not submit to the Authority of the Church. When Christ founded the Church and commissioned its leaders, he granted them the authority necessary to fulfill its mission. So when we, in an independent spirit, decide that we can do it without the Church, we are in fact bringing judgment upon ourselves.
This next passage also tells us about obedience to the Church.

The Roman Pope, Cardinals and Bishops are not my authority.
My minister preaches the Gospel and we sing hyms but we also have Bible study for an hour where each week a different person discusses a specific chapter or verses in the Bible and we all discuss it.

1 Peter 5:4 and at the manifestation of the Chief-Shepherd/arci-poimenoV <750>, ye shall receive the unfading crown of glory.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a son, a male, who is being about to be Shepherding/poimainein <4165> all the nations in sceptre of iron; and is snatched-away the offspring of her toward the God and the throne of Him.

 

[Fireinfolding]

"Representative" and "subsitute" are two different words. Don't confuse the them.

Thats very true, the apostles were ambassadors in Christ's stead. On the otherhand one like Diotrephes who loved the "preeminence" (to be "first") really belonged to Christ alone. In doing that he was standing in he wrong place. I see this more as trying to usurp Christ's rightful place. It appears as though he was trying to be "in the place of" in two ways which correspond to being Anti ( in this case, somewhat to Christ). Anti meaning "in the place of", "against" or "instead of", (rather then "in His stead"). Your word "substitute" works well. Diotrephes was putting others out of communion with the body, being against the body (of Christ). There were those who would have received them but were forbidden (by him) in doing so.

I see the "holding fast" to "the head" (Christ) which makes one apart of the body of Christ not nessesarily the one man show Diotrephes was pulling as an overlord over the body. But both "instead of" (Christ) and "against" (the body of Christ) are both found in this guys example.

I agree, ambassadors for Christ or "substitutes". I wonder if thats why (in a patern) shown in John the baptist) when asked concernng Himself it was written "he confessed and denied not" that he was not the Christ" (annointed). He faithfully pointed to Christ not himself, just as Paul speaks of not preaching themselves but Christ the Lord.

 

[Cribstyl]

"Representative" and "subsitute" are two different words. Don't confuse the them.

Question...does Vice (as in vice president) come from vica. And since Christ has ascended into heaven then who's in authority on earth, The vica of Christ, His eminence The pope? Huh?, huh?

CRIB (i need to read more) STYL

 

[Fireinfolding]

One of the biggest problems Protestants have with the Roman Catholic Church is the requirement for obedience. One God, one Son, one Spirit, one Church. Christ did not create a fragmented Church. That was a creation of man.

One says, "I follow Peter" I follow another Its the same ol' divisions just different holy men.

Theres honestly nothing new under the sun lol.

I'm sure RC preists dont wrestle at all with obedience.

Its good to know we can drop the protestant word given its a creation of man


Divisions and them "holy men"....its the same ol' story different century isnt it?

"But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

RC priests should be taught how to behave in the household of God. If one cant rule ones household how will one rule the world right?

Leading by way of example Watching ones life and doctrine will save he hearer. Word and deed, maybe someone will listen.

What is interesting here is that Paul calls the Church the pillar and foundation of truth.

Pillars support the weak, not molest them. They preach Christ not themselves, they have a message worth listening to.

Of course the scripture is important, but it is the Church that leads us.

Scripture cannot be broken but branches can always be "broken off".

Though I believe it is the Holy Spirit that is to lead. The Church ought lead by example too, watching ones "life and doctrine", good combination. Maybe she will preach Christ instead of herself sometimes soon .

To resist the Church is to resist truth.

Resistence is futile, yes I used to watch star treck

When someone sets themselves up to interpret the scripture outside Church teaching, they are setting themselves above the Church.

No one sets themselves up to interpret scripture but to read them, proving all things, this is admonished not discouraged,


Discouraging it appears shady.

Being a Berean is still a noble thing.

Anyone who does not belong to God does not listen to us.

Always best to listen to the apostles

 

[Oblio]

Pillars support the weak, not molest them. They preach Christ not themselves, they have a message worth listening to.

Newsflash ! There are sinners in every congregation. I'd get the log out of your own eye before concentrationg on speck in another's.

Oh, you have you ecclesiology confused. No one said clergy are the pillar and foundation of truth, the Church is.

What many 'I only need the Bible' evangelicals fail to realize is that the Church is both human AND Divine. While partially made up of sinful people, it is also made up of the Saints who no longer sin, and the Holy Spirit lives His life though her, and finally she is the Body of Christ with Him as her head. Now, how can the Body of Christ be responsible for sin ?

 

[Oblio]

Being a Berean is still a noble thing.

Being a Jewish skeptic is noble ??

Only if you receive the word and convert. I'm not sure I'd use them as a role model if I were a Christian.

 

[Oblio]

Maybe she will preach Christ instead of herself sometimes soon

:snort:

This coming from a faith with feel good 'Jesus is my Boyfriend' pop tunes and Starbucks, and drive through churches, and individualized Mall of America services. Pop, country, Rock, Rap ... A faith that rarely teaches prayer, fasting, repentence, confession or almsgiving ...

OK ... remember that log ?

 

[sunlover1]

One of the biggest problems Protestants have with the Roman Catholic Church is the requirement for obedience. One God, one Son, one Spirit, one Church. Christ did not create a fragmented Church. That was a creation of man.

Do you mean the CC's requirement for obedience??
We who follow Jesus, know that He said if we love him,
we'll obey Him.

It's a choice we've made.
We've counted the cost...

To see thee more clearly, love thee more dearly, follow thee more nearly.
Day by day...

"But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth." 1 Timothy 3:15 What is interesting here is that Paul calls the Church the pillar and foundation of truth.

Interesting indeed.
Meaning that the Church of the living God is the holder upper of truth.
Would that be the church as in the called out ones?

Of course the scripture is important, but it is the Church that leads us. To resist the Church is to resist truth.

Huh??
We ARE the church.
Jesus Christ is the truth.

When someone sets themselves up to interpret the scripture outside Church teaching, they are setting themselves above the Church. The next scripture passage explains the importance of obedience to the authority, which includes the Church.
"Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves." Romans 13:1-2
This passage should be frightening to those who do not submit to the Authority of the Church.

I doubt your church teaches that theis passage refers to clergy or to the cc.

Here's a commentary,
Now according to Matthew Henry Commentary, the pope is exalting himself above all that is called God.
??
I have no idea why he says such, and it's not my words:

I. The duty enjoined: Let every soul be subject. Every soul-every person, one as well as another, not excluding the clergy, who call themselves spiritual persons, however, the church of Rome may not only exempt such from subjection to the civil powers, but place them in authority above them, making the greatest princes subject to the pope, who thus exalteth himself above all that is called God.

—Every soul. Not that our consciences are to be subjected to the will of any man. It is God’s prerogative to make laws immediately to bind conscience, and we must render to God the things that are God’s. But it intimates that our subjection must be free and voluntary, sincere and hearty. Curse not the king, no, not in thy thought, Eccl. 10:20. To compass and imagine are treason begun. The subjection of soul here required includes inward honour (1 Pt. 2:17) and outward reverence and respect, both in speaking to them and in speaking of them-obedience to their commands in things lawful and honest, and in other things a patient subjection to the penalty without resistance-a conformity in every thing to the place and duty of subjects, bringing our minds to the relation and condition, and the inferiority and subordination of it. "They are higher powers; be content they should be so, and submit to them accordingly.’’
Henry, M. 1996, c1991. Matthew Henry's commentary : On the whole Bible

When Christ founded the Church and commissioned its leaders, he granted them the authority necessary to fulfill its mission. So when we, in an independent spirit, decide that we can do it without the Church, we are in fact bringing judgment upon ourselves.
This next passage also tells us about obedience to the Church.

"Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you." Hebrews 13:17

Earlier in the chapter He makes it clear who those are.
7 Remember them which have the rule&#65279;a&#65279; over you,
who have spoken unto you the word of God:
whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
a have the rule: or, are the guides


Are you implying that I have to submit to the CC? How
does the CC have rule over me?

What if the church is not following God?
We just submit to whoever 'claims' to be the 'true church'?
There are a few who make that claim, you see?

"Then Jesus approached and said to them, 'All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.' " Matthew 28:18-20
Jesus commanded the Apostles to go forth and teach, not go forth and distribute Bibles and let the people figure it out for themselves. Every time I think about the fundamentalist approach to faith, I think about the widely used phrase "lost sheep." How frightening it must be to be handed a Bible and expected to understand it.

You'd call me a lost sheep for reading
the Word of God and listening for God's voice
to try to obey and follow Him?
Why??

His sheep DO hear His voice it says.
A strangers voice they will NOT follow.
So .. not lost after all.

so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities in the heavens." Ephesians 3:10
Faith is made know to all through the Church.

Amen, I don't consider your sect, "the church".
This might be where we have a problem.
The church is the body of Christ, it's clearly spelled out
in the Bible,
the body of Chirst is the church.

We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit." 1 John 4:6
Anyone who does not belong to God does not listen to us

Amen.

And there it is.
Thank you mucho Trento.

love,
sunlover

 

[sunlover1]

:snort:

This coming from a faith with feel good 'Jesus is my Boyfriend' pop tunes and Starbucks, and drive through churches, and individualized Mall of America services. Pop, country, Rock, Rap ... A faith that rarely teaches prayer, fasting, repentence, confession or almsgiving ...

OK ... remember that log ?

This is way out of line.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Cool, so that's Peter? Or we all get the keys??
I don't follow.

We do not all get the keys.
Or Christ would have made that clear.

Mankind does not inately have the truth even if they have the SPirit to believe.

There is a difference between believing in Christ and actually KNOWING the truths He laid down for us in His doctrines.

Well.........Post what Catholics believe about the key to the kingdom in Matt 16:18,19.... that we may reason together. I'm not a hater....I love all of God's people. His word I'd like to redeem above the smoke and mirrors of any mans religon.
-----------------------------------------------------

Tell me this......
Vicarius Filii Dei (Latin: Vicar or Representative of the Son of God)..................

Who among men was given authority as a representative (substitute) of Jesus Christ.?


CRIB

Put it this way...And I think Jesus made His repetitive question pretty clear.

Please follow the dots I am showing you...


Ezechiel 34
15 I will feed my sheep: and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God.

John 21
15 When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.
17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

Ok...is Jesus, or is He not passing on the role of Shepherd to Peter...?

Yes Jesus is our Shepherd, but as He is entitled as such, He is also entitled to pass this position onto anyone He chooses..so long as they are feeding His sheep on earth, He is feeding us from Heaven.

IE...He sent His Apostle to go out and CONTINUE His ministry.
How does His minstry continue if He does not appoint someone to do so?

This is what He wants.

You're correct but let God's word be true.

Could you imagine an email from God....

"Gone fishing, Peter's in charge of the shop and whoever he appoints thereafter."


CRIB

He did do that...in scriptures. [In email too if someone sends that to you.]

You say it, and do not even realise just what you said. Ironic.

But that is the truth.
Jesus is out 'fishing' for men...and He appoints Peter and henceforth to feed the sheep and keep the keys to the house...

Until He comes back.
In which case, no one will need to have the keys...

 

[Oblio]

This is way out of line.

I'm simply giving examples of Protestants churches that are part of the 'Me Generation'. It's called hypocrisy, slamming another faith and claiming they don't preach Christ but rather themselves, when Protestant churches are just as guilty. I simply backed up the obverse with examples.

 

[WarriorAngel]

 

[Fireinfolding]

Newsflash ! There are sinners in every congregation.

I rarely watch the news.

Hey, I have a family of Catholics and a bunch of Prot freinds theres no distinguishable difference that way, I know it well. Besides the fact I claim nothing more of myself.

I'd get the log out of your own eye before concentrationg on speck in another's.

What? Getting the LOG out of MY EYE? How? By answering to Trento who cant see His own?

One of the biggest problems Protestants have with the Roman Catholic Church is the requirement for obedience

Pluuuleeze Whose Got the Log?

I already know Im a sinner Oblio, I make no pretentions about either being brilliant or beyond reproach or the "true anything" God is true. I'm not the one with copyrights on infallibility I thought RC was?

I'm not the one preaching myself or obedience "to me" or pushing my authority figures on others. I make no claims to be of the "laying on of hands" linenage from ancient of days (from one holy man to the next). While my choice of elders (preists or whatever) I'm pushing cant be trusted, questioned (or even proved) by studying scripture for myself because it becomes self interpretation yet its ok for them to be self contradictory.

Oh, you have you ecclesiology confused. No one said clergy are the pillar and foundation of truth, the Church is.

Well then, I am confused because the Church is supposed "to lead" He said... the whole post was (prot/cath) on obedience and it was obviously not talking about to the protestants (who have this "so-called" huge problem with obedience, says Him concerning the RC) Neeither does it appear He was implying of those that sit on the pew.

He appeared to have "leaders in mind". Your saying what? The priests should obey the congregation? I havent a clue how they or you see something, I can only go by whats written (and implied) along with consistent past experiences with a posters constant emphasis.


"Us, Us, Us, Us, Us, Us, Us, Us" its not the gospel of ~JESus~ its the gospel of "US"

Where is HE?

Flashback...

~He is not here~

"Obedience to us" is held higher then Jesus Christ, its all I ever hear.

What many 'I only need the Bible' evangelicals fail to realize is that the Church is both human AND Divine.

Im not one who fails to realize that Oblio, RC is no different then any other church they are HUMAN (just like protestants).

While partially made up of sinful people, it is also made up of the Saints who no longer sin, and the Holy Spirit lives His life though her, and finally she is the Body of Christ with Him as her head. Now, how can the Body of Christ be responsible for sin ?

How can the body of Christ be responsible for sin? That makes no sense whatsoever Oblio. In what way do you mean such a thing? Not reaping what one sows? Free to hurt others (in the name of God) without apology or consequence?

Please do explain that one to me.

Being a Jewish skeptic is noble ??

Only if you receive the word and convert. I'm not sure I'd use them as a role model if I were a Christian.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

snort:

This coming from a faith with feel good 'Jesus is my Boyfriend' pop tunes and Starbucks, and drive through churches, and individualized Mall of America services. Pop, country, Rock, Rap ... A faith that rarely teaches prayer, fasting, repentence, confession or almsgiving ...

You watch too much TV Oblio, even most Prots wouldnt watch most of that stuff.

I never heard a "Jesus is my boyfreind pop tune" but neither have I been to starbucks. I am pretty sheltered I dont appear to watch as much TV as you thats for certain.

We are not all alike, you should know that by now. Its often times thrown in our face. Some of them are your throwbacks (in a mixture of either right or wrong) and some just going through counseling and being decatholinated

OK ... remember that log ?

We can all have one, I thought I was just helping Trento to remember how human His group is as well

It started out on Prots verses RC obedience. I was just reminding him disobedience is sometimes in our own back yards.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I'm simply giving examples of Protestants churches that are part of the 'Me Generation'. It's called hypocrisy, slamming another faith and claiming they don't preach Christ but rather themselves, when Protestant churches are just as guilty. I simply backed up the obverse with examples.

Oh Wow, you did the "ME" generation and I ran of the "US" gospel.

It was protestants that were slammed first. I was pointing out that hypocricy. But I guess since you two are more closely related that might have escaped your notice.

Christ and Mary together we got them all covered

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We do not all get the keys.
Or Christ would have made that clear.

Mankind does not inately have the truth even if they have the SPirit to believe.

There is a difference between believing in Christ and actually KNOWING the truths He laid down for us in His doctrines.

Yepperz. The Jews are still trying to find it also.

James 5:6 ye convict--ye murder/efoneusate <5407> the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to ye.

Revelation 9:21 And not they reform/repent/metenohsan <3340> (5656) out of the murders/fonwn <5408> of them, nor out from their sorceries,...........

 

[Rick Otto]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]They are keys of understanding, not symbols of authority.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Matthew 16:19[/FONT] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of
heaven?
By the kingdom of heaven is meant the Gospel, which comes from heaven, declares the king Messiah to be come, speaks of things concerning his kingdom, is the means of setting it up, and enlarging it, displays the riches of his grace, and gives an account of the kingdom of heaven, and of persons' right unto it, and meetness for it. "The keys" of it are abilities to open and explain the Gospel truths, and a mission and commission from Christ to make use of them; and being said to be given to Peter particularly, denotes his after qualifications, commission, work, and usefulness in opening the door of faith, or preaching the Gospel first to the Jews, (Acts 2:1-47) and then to the Gentiles, (Acts 10:1-48) (15:7,14) and who was the first that made use of the keys of evangelical knowledge with respect to both, after he, with the rest of the apostles, had received an enlarged commission to preach the Gospel to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Otherwise these keys belonged to them all alike; for to the same persons the keys, and the use of them, appertained, on whom the power of binding and loosing was bestowed; and this latter all the disciples had, as is manifest from (Matthew 18:18) wherefore this does not serve to establish the primacy and power of Peter over the rest of the apostles; nor do keys design any lordly domination or authority; nor did Christ allow of any such among his apostles; nor is it his will that the ministers of his word should lord it over his heritage: he only is king of saints, and head of his church; he has the key of David, with which he opens, and no man shuts, and shuts, and no man opens; and this he keeps in his own hand, and gives it to none. Peter is not the door-keeper of heaven to let in, nor keep out, whom he pleases; nor has his pretended successor the keys of hell and death; these also are only in Christ's hands: Keys are the ensigns of treasurers, and of stewards, and such the ministers of the Gospel are; they have the rich treasure of the word under their care, put into their earthen vessels to open and lay before others; and they are stewards of the mysteries and manifold grace of God, and of these things they have the keys. So that these words have nothing to do with church power and government in Peter, nor in the pope, nor in any other man, or set of men whatever; nor to be understood of church censures, excommunications, admissions, or exclusions of members: nor indeed are keys of any such similar use; they serve for locking and unlocking doors, and so for keeping out those that are without, and retaining those that are within, but not for the expulsion of any: but here they are used in a figurative sense, for the opening and explaining the truths of the Gospel, for which Peter had excellent gifts and abilities.
[/FONT]
Condensed from:[/FONT]John Gill Commentaries with bold, colored & italic type in honor of brother Trento!
Hope ya got some good flyin' time in this summer, Mr. T!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Since we are discussing keys, I am a little perplexed on Reve 1 and 9.
The greek words for key here is identical but yet it is usually translated plural in Reve 1 and Singular in Reve 9.
Who is the one with the key-s in Reve 9? Thoughts?

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead, and behold, I am living into the Ages of the Ages. And I am having the Key-s/kleiV <2807> of the Hades and of the Death

Reve 9:1 And the 5th messenger sounds a trumpet, and I perceive a Star/astera <792> out of the heaven, having fallen/peptwkota <4098>(5761) into the land, and was given to him the Key-s/kleiV <2807> of the well/pit of the Abyss,

Matthew 16:19 I shall be giving thee the keys/kleiV <2807> of the reign of the heavens. And which if ever thou should be binding upon the land, shall be having been bound in the heavens, and which if ever thou should be loosing upon the land shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'

 

[GeratTzedek]

Yepperz. The Jews are still trying to find it also.

James 5:6 ye convict--ye murder/efoneusate <5407> the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to ye.

Revelation 9:21 And not they reform/repent/metenohsan <3340> (5656) out of the murders/fonwn <5408> of them, nor out from their sorceries,...........

What is it with you and "The Jews" ????? Seems like every other post from you lately is "The Jews."

Do you know how it looks to me? I see many rabbinical Jews "earnestly serve God day and night.." (Acts 26:7) Through prayer, through emunah (faith/faithfulness) they come to KNOW G-d deeply. And then I see some Christians, whose lives are a mess, who are saved ONLY by the grace of HaShem, who have the CHUTSPAH to point fingers and say, "UMMMMM! They don't know JEEEEzus!" And I can imagine G-d's face crinkling up in disgust as He says, "Oh just SHUT UP!"

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What is it with you and "The Jews" ?????

Well, practically 3/4 of the Bible concerns the 2 "symbolic" Nations of "Judah" and "Israel", so it is hard not to mention them.
I did "form" a prayer for them though .

[Nation of Judah in Red]
Revelation 7:

1. Judah/Y@huwdah = "Now I will praise the Lord" 2. Reuben/R@'uwben = "He has looked upon me" 3. Gad/Gad = "Granted good fortune" 4. Asher/'Asher = "Happy am I" 5. Naphtali/Naphtaliy = "My wrestling" 6. Manasseh/M@nashsheh = "Making me to forget" 7. Simeon/Shim`own = "God hears me" 8. Levi/Leviy= "Joined to me" 9. Issachar/Yissaskar = "Purchased Me"10. Zebulun/Z@buwluwn = "Dwelling" 11. Joseph/Yowceph = "God will add to me" 12. Benjamin/Binyamiyn = "Son of His right hand"