About Rule Discussions and the Wiki: Please Read

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Hey Everyone,

I considered making this into a poll, but that can be done later, since I'd rather just get opinions in this.

In the wiki thread, all of the rules are dicussed in depth before being put up to vote. Those that are participating in the wiki thread get a say and agree when it should go up and all of that. Over the past few weeks the wiki has gotten to the point only a few members are helping out, and thusly the rules posted are not seeming to be to the liking of the majority due to wording or misunderstanding.

RC suggested using the wiki for the first steps, and then bringing the proposed rules to a thread in the main forum for revision before voting. This may be a good idea, considering it'll save time and cofusion, and the rules should be more generally agreed upon and not need rewording in the future.

What do you guys think? Would you like to see a pre-poll discussion brought here since not many are going to the wiki? Keeping in mind, that the origional rules will still be discussed first in the wiki, then the proposed ones posted here for opinions on wording, then a vote.

THose in the wiki are doing the best we can, but it's just not going to work if others are not part of the discussion. =\

Blessings and Love,
Sarah

 

[DarylFawcett]

Seeing we have almost completed this part of the proposing of rules process, and practically everything proposed so far were actually voted through in the POLLS, I am uncertain what to say about doing it this way.

If it doesn't go against the way we have been told to do this in the wiki, then I am personally OK with doing the rest of whatever is left to be done as is now being proposed here.

Once we are done with the initial proposals, we could go back to the wiki and suggest better wording of whatever there and bring it to a thread here as a prelude to creating a poll.

 

[woobadooba]

I am quite frustrated about all of this. I am amazed at these people! They don't even participate in the wiki, and then when rules are put up in a poll they cry that they didn't get a chance to participate. This is just foolish, and it is holding things up. Other forums are way ahead of us. We need to decide what we are going to do, how we are going to do it, and get busy doing it. Enough of this whining.

 

[DarylFawcett]

With the current RULE POLLS to be voted on, we have covered and completed all the intitial major rule proposals, therefore, this proposal, as good as it may be, is really too late.

I am still uncertain if this proposal would violate the foru.ms rule/s that say we must do this via the wiki.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

If you recall we are not using the wiki at all the way it was intended because there were certain people who thought they owned it. To deal with that we changed our practice to use the wiki as a discussion of the rules thread. Of course that became difficult to follow very quickly as it does not separate issues, it is just one thread.

There is nothing new about my proposal as it has been offered several weeks ago and I even tried to open discussion threads on particular rules one rule at a time. But others opened polls many of which were not authorized by consensus in the wiki and people assumed those polls were official. Much as happened with the last poll about the split of forums. Clearly it was not an authorized poll which is demonstrated by the fact that it was simply closed by the person who started the poll asking for it to be closed.

At least when Tall was putting up polls we had a good idea that there was at least a consensus of some that the poll should be made. But now we don't even seem to have that. I think Daryl's polls are very similar to Tall in that regard but they have not really taken the time to formulate the rules too well.

I know I have not joined in the wiki lately as I lost the link and it is not posted in the forum, you can find it if you ask or search but it is not clearly indicated nor are the methods we agreed upon posted. So yes we are probably behind other forums because we had a number of false starts and polls that were not authorized and confusing to people. But that is hardly a reason to rush the rule making process. It should rather tell us that we need to implement a way that the entire forum can see and be involved with the rule discussion rather then simply going to a vote.

the wiki thread is still useful as a place to hammer out the next area to focus on and some preliminary rule ideas from those who have the time to work on it but clearly we need the imput of the larger community to formulate well thought out rules.

 

[woobadooba]

If you recall we are not using the wiki at all the way it was intended because there were certain people who thought they owned it. To deal with that we changed our practice to use the wiki as a discussion of the rules thread. Of course that became difficult to follow very quickly as it does not separate issues, it is just one thread.

There is nothing new about my proposal as it has been offered several weeks ago and I even tried to open discussion threads on particular rules one rule at a time. But others opened polls many of which were not authorized by consensus in the wiki and people assumed those polls were official. Much as happened with the last poll about the split of forums. Clearly it was not an authorized poll which is demonstrated by the fact that it was simply closed by the person who started the poll asking for it to be closed.

At least when Tall was putting up polls we had a good idea that there was at least a consensus of some that the poll should be made. But now we don't even seem to have that. I think Daryl's polls are very similar to Tall in that regard but they have not really taken the time to formulate the rules too well.

I know I have not joined in the wiki lately as I lost the link and it is not posted in the forum, you can find it if you ask or search but it is not clearly indicated nor are the methods we agreed upon posted. So yes we are probably behind other forums because we had a number of false starts and polls that were not authorized and confusing to people. But that is hardly a reason to rush the rule making process. It should rather tell us that we need to implement a way that the entire forum can see and be involved with the rule discussion rather then simply going to a vote.

the wiki thread is still useful as a place to hammer out the next area to focus on and some preliminary rule ideas from those who have the time to work on it but clearly we need the imput of the larger community to formulate well thought out rules.

What we need is people that are willing to see this thing through all the way. That means they will agree to participate in whatever it is that goes to the wiki, to work out the details of it before it goes to a poll.

We need committed people. Are you willing to do that?

As for rushing things, this forum is totally out of control, and has exploded lately with flaming posts. We need to at least get some rules up, as well as a FSB system ASAP, to stop this behavior.

By the way, the split poll was valid. It didn't have to go to the wiki because it didn't constitute a rule that would be made for this forum, but was of an entirely different context.

The reason why I closed it was because I discovered what the Traditionals were planning ion doing. They were going to use the same rules that they just put up in their sub-forum and apply them to the whole forum. That would mean that no one would be allowed to debate or discuss issues in here unless they agreed with their standard for identifying a Tradtional, and thereby acknowledged themselves as such. In my opinion that is just bogus, since their standard isn't even consistent with what most Traditionals in the church really think about such things.

So I closed the poll as a result of that.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

You bring the discussion to the main forum and all users will see it and give their input. I think it is interesting that you think your poll was legitmate yet you alone were capable of ending it because you thought traditionals had some plans to do something that was not a part of the poll question at all. In other words there was no adequate discussion of the poll question and what they meant and what the implications would be. That is simply a great example of what is wrong with these polls and why the discussion must precede the polls.

 

[woobadooba]

You bring the discussion to the main forum and all users will see it and give their input. I think it is interesting that you think your poll was legitmate yet you alone were capable of ending it because you thought traditionals had some plans to do something that was not a part of the poll question at all. In other words there was no adequate discussion of the poll question and what they meant and what the implications would be. That is simply a great example of what is wrong with these polls and why the discussion must precede the polls.

If it wasn't valid then why did the people vote? Even you voted, RC

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Because there are also personal polls that are used just to ask questions and see what people think. I had in that thread already noted that people did not even know what they were voting for. Apparently you finally realized that a few days later.

 

[OntheDL]

I am quite frustrated about all of this. I am amazed at these people! They don't even participate in the wiki, and then when rules are put up in a poll they cry that they didn't get a chance to participate. This is just foolish, and it is holding things up. Other forums are way ahead of us. We need to decide what we are going to do, how we are going to do it, and get busy doing it. Enough of this whining.

You know what? I'm sorry that I hadn't participated in wiki. I'm having a hard time tracking all the posts as it is. In my opinion, more notices or links should be posted here so people can know what's going on before they see the polls come out.

 

[reddogs]

You bring the discussion to the main forum and all users will see it and give their input. I think it is interesting that you think your poll was legitmate yet you alone were capable of ending it because you thought traditionals had some plans to do something that was not a part of the poll question at all. In other words there was no adequate discussion of the poll question and what they meant and what the implications would be. That is simply a great example of what is wrong with these polls and why the discussion must precede the polls.

You are right on the money, RC, I have been frustrated to no end trying to track down where the discussion on the rules are with all the multiple links, then getting blocked, then getting a workaround only to see the polls be presented with unfinished or unworkable rules...

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Sigh.

Okay, so first of all..those of us that have been working in the Wiki considered these rules, for the most part, to be good. This is largely because we discussed them and understand the context in them. So, after working through them for awhile we feel comfortable with posting them here.

Then people who aren't following the flow of the rules are not happy because they are seeing something they don't understand/like and it becomes misinterpreted.

Thusly, we're going to end up with people voting against a possible good rule, simply because the wording was not quite right! This is a real problem.

Some rules have passed before, yes, but that was also when more people were involved. Tall was a really big help in the wording process, I'll admit that. Also, Red is now not easily able to help out, and he was a big help before.

I don't think it's going to go against any rules if we follow this method:

1) Rules are proposed in the wiki, as they have been and discussed in the same manner. If anyone wants a specific rule it must be proposed there (or in the case of Red, PM once of us and that'll be worked around or something)

2) Once those initial rules are worked through, they will be posted in the main forum in a thread for each set as it's done. Instead of a poll, this will be the chance people can help word them and make suggestions to alter the present ones. That will not be a debate thread to say "I don't agree with this rule and don't want it". If you feel that way, vote against it in the poll. The thread is for only rewording suggestions so we can at least agree on that when they go up for vote.

3) Rule poll. Those who agree or disagree get their say there, but at least they won't be disagreeing simply due to the wordings!

In my opinion, this is the best way to handle what's happening right now. It's giving everyone a chance, and organizing some things. I do understand it's hard to jump into the wiki if you're new to it, because it's so big and jumbled at the moment.

I suggest that, if you guys agree with this method, we try that with the current rules up for vote, since clearly there is a lot of unhappiness with how they are presented. I've also seen a lot of good suggestions in wording some of them pop up, too, which I'd like to adress before it's voted up and need to be revoted to change.

Blessings and Love,
Sarah