Isaiah 53: A Contextual Discussion

[LittleLambofJesus]

I was a Christian for over 20 years. I've read the NIV, NASB, KJV, NKJV, Amplified and Living translations from front to back. I've also read Isaiah 52-53 from a Jewish Tanakh. Believe me, I've read it with an "open heart". Yet, I'll admonish you to do something in return: read the Jewish Scriptures from a Jewish perspective and learn about them from someone with a Judaic understanding. Then, you'll have a shot at understanding the context.

Can't argue against those credentials!!!.
Btw, I highly recommend this interlinear or at least read a chapter of Isaiah with it and tell me what ya think. It is really best to install it first then use it.
Thanks and shalom!

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Added:
- Strong for the Hebrew OT.
- Hebrew text (WLC) with vowel points.
- Morphological separation points are added to WLC_t (transliteration) and CHES (Concordant Hebrew-English Sublinear).

This form of the Hebrew word #06293 is used only this one time in the OT.

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I-shall-apportion to-him in-many-ones, and-the staunch-ones he-shall-apportion loot/plunder, under which he-makes-bare to-death soul-of-him.
And-with ones-transgressing he-was-counted, and-he sin-of many-ones he-bore, and-to-ones-transgressing he-is making-intercession/06293 paga`.

06293 paga` {paw-gah'} a primitive root; TWOT - 1731; v
AV - fall 12, meet 11, reach 7, intercession 4, intreat 2, entreat 1, misc 9; 46

1) to encounter, meet, reach, entreat, make intercession 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to meet, light upon, join 1a2) to meet (of kindness)
1a3) to encounter, fall upon (of hostility) 1a4) to encounter, entreat (of request) 1a5) to strike, touch (of boundary)
1b) (Hiphil) 1b1) to cause to light upon 1b2) to cause to entreat 1b3) to make entreaty, interpose 1b4) to make attack
1b5) to reach the mark

 

[JoeWill]

Then why does JESUS have to return again as a "suffering servant" in the future to deliver the same message again to Israel and the Jews as Christ-ians and Muslims believe

Edit to add: I see this thread is probably going to go off into different directions. Hope not.

He comes again, but not as a suffering Servant, nor to deliver the same message twice.


The two comings of Jesus on earth are foreshadowed by the life of Joseph (Old Testament).

1. Joseph was loved by his father and disliked by his brothers, pointing to the time when Jesus, who was loved by his Father God, would be disliked by his Jewish brothers.

2. Joseph was rejected by his brothers because of who he claimed to be according to the visions that God gave him, pointing to the time when Jesus would be rejected by his Jewish brothers because of who he claimed to be.

3. Joseph was betrayed by his brother Yehuda (who we call Judah), who recommended that he be sold as a slave, pointing to the time when Jesus would be betrayed by another Yehuda (who we call Judas) who led the authorities to arrest him.

4. Joseph was falsely accused and taken to a place of condemnation – a prison, pointing to the time when Jesus would be falsely accused and taken to a place of condemnation – the cross.

5. Joseph met two men in prison, one of whom was hanged, and the other spared. This points to the time when Jesus would be crucified between two thieves. One of them would reject him and go away into darkness, while the other would receive him as Lord, and go away into eternal life.

6. Joseph was taken from the prison, the place of condemnation, and became Pharaoh’s right hand man. Every knee bowed before him. This points to the time when Jesus, having risen from the dead, would stand at the right hand of God. One day every knee will bow before him too.

7. By storing grain for the future famine, Joseph became his region’s saviour, pointing to the time when Jesus would become the Saviour of the world by paying the price for our wrongdoings on the cross.

8. Joseph was given a Gentile bride by Pharaoh, pointing to the time when church, which is called "the Bride of Christ" in the New Testament, would be predominantly Gentile.

9. When Joseph's brothers came to ask for grain from him, they did not recognise him, but when they came a second time, they we allowed to see who he was. This points to the time when Jesus came as Messiah but the Jewish nation we not aware of it. When he returns, they will know that he is the Messiah.

Do you see how the second time when the brothers saw Joseph, he was not in the form of a suffering servant but an exalted, glorified servant of Pharaoh? Likewise, when Jesus returns he will be as the glorious Son of God.

Can you see how the story of Joseph and Isaiah 53 might combine to predict aspects of Christ? In both texts the central figure is rejected, persecuted and then raised to glory.

If you want to return just to the Isaiah 53 passage, go ahead.

 

[JoeWill]

Happy Birthday, Joe.



Actually, this is not the case. Isaiah was written after one Diaspora. Therefore, there can be a distinction made between those Jews in in the land of Israel and those not.



Actually, this isn't the case either. The Nation of Israel is referred to in the singular many times: G-d's son, G-d's firstborn and so on.



Feel free to bring this back up when we discuss the context within Isaiah 52-53.



You need to lose this Christian propaganda.

Isaiah 53 CAN be considered Messianic in midrash aggadah; however, it is NEVER considered Messianic in the p-s-h-a-t interpretation.

Furthermore, Isaiah 53 was NEVER a part of a Haftorah reading. There is NOTHING in the Torah that would have corresponded. Your usage of this blatant lie makes me believe two things:

1) You have no idea what Midrash Aggadah is.
2) You have no idea what the Haftorahs are or why they were started.

If you want to go down this path upon the discussion within the context of 52-53; then I suggest you study up as I'll be expecting source material and substantiation.



Ahh... so you're a Replacement Theologist. Good to know. Btw, your claim above hasn't been substantiated yet. However, if you stick around; then I'll give you every opportunity to do so.



I'll give you a little history, Joe, so that you can refrain from comments like this in the future.

I was a Christian for over 20 years. I've read the NIV, NASB, KJV, NKJV, Amplified and Living translations from front to back. I've also read Isaiah 52-53 from a Jewish Tanakh. Believe me, I've read it with an "open heart". Yet, I'll admonish you to do something in return: read the Jewish Scriptures from a Jewish perspective and learn about them from someone with a Judaic understanding. Then, you'll have a shot at understanding the context.

If there isn't much more feedback in the next day or so, I'll go to the internal context.

Btw, unless shown otherwise, the internal context WILL have the surrounding context as support.

Thank you. You obviously have a lot of knowledge.

But I find the points you make unconvincing. For example there does appear to be a clear distinction in the terminology between the Servant and the nation of Israel itself in Isaiah 53. This seems apparent when we read verses such as "he was despised and we esteemed him not". I suspect that you will try to argue against this, but I also suspect that you will be stretching credulity a bit far.

The references to the Servant being innocent in Isaiah in the sense that he had done no violence, does sit awkwardly with Isaiah's perception of Israel having its hands "full of blood". This seems to be important now because you began by asking who the Servant is.

 

[JoeWill]

Okay muffler dragon, I don't know what time it is over there, but it's getting on for 4:00 am here in the UK. I will have a look at your post tomorrow and see what I think.

 

[muffler dragon]

Thank you. You obviously have a lot of knowledge.

But I find the points you make unconvincing. For example there does appear to be a clear distinction in the terminology between the Servant and the nation of Israel itself in Isaiah 53. This seems apparent when we read verses such as "he was despised and we esteemed him not". I suspect that you will try to argue against this, but I also suspect that you will be stretching credulity a bit far.

The references to the Servant being innocent in Isaiah in the sense that he had done no violence, does sit awkwardly with Isaiah's perception of Israel having its hands "full of blood". This seems to be important now because you began by asking who the Servant is.

Okay muffler dragon, I don't know what time it is over there, but it's getting on for 4:00 am here in the UK. I will have a look at your post tomorrow and see what I think.

We'll delve into the internal context soon. Then we can go verse by verse (or something like that).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We'll delve into the internal context soon. Then we can go verse by verse (or something like that).

Ok. Shalom.

edit to add: I like Isaiah 28 a lot also, as that coincides more with Daniel's prophecies I think.

 

[JoeWill]

Shalom,


Okay, I'm back. A few weeks ago, I suffered from a virus which put me in hospital. I'm out now but I get very tired and I'm likely to be like that for a couple of months. Also I am writing a dissertation. So sometimes there will be a delay before I look at your thread.


I see a bit of a problem with your wanting to establish who the Servant is in Isaiah 53 before looking at the context of the passage. The context of the passage helps us to determine who the Servant is, and so seems inseparable from your initial question.





My thoughts so far


It is very difficult to argue that the Servant in Isaiah 53 is the nation of Israel because:




a) A preceding Servant Song says in Isaiah 49:5 that the Servant has a mission to restore Jacob (i.e. the nation of Israel) to God:


"And now the LORD ... who formed me in the womb ... to bring back Jacob to Him..."


You said that my interpretation was not necessarily correct, because the Jewish people had already been partially dispersed by the Assryrian disapora, so they were not one people when Isaiah wrote.


But in the next verse, it is said that the Servant will restore the tribes of Jacob. This is set alongside a reference to the Gentiles who are also treated as one people:


"It is too small a thing that you should ... raise up the tribes of Jacob ... I will also give you as a light to the Gentiles..." (Isaiah 49: 6).


The more plausible interpretation therefore seems to be that the Servant is sent to the whole of Israel. This would mean that the Servant cannot be Israel.






b) The Servant in Isaiah is found to be innocent of violence and deceit, unlike the nation of Israel at that time. In fact, he is unlike anyone else who has ever lived because we have all been guilty of deceit at some time. Compare the following verses:


About the Servant: "...Nor was any deceit in his mouth..." Isaiah 53:9


About human beings: "The heart is deceitful above all things..." Jeremiah 17:9


So how can the Servant in Isaiah 53 be a human nation?






c) Isaiah distinguishes between the Servant and his own Jewish nation of people.


For example:


"Just as many people were astonished at you, so His visage was marred more than any man..." Isaiah 52:14


"...He was despised and we did not esteem Him..." Isaiah 53:3






d) It was common for Jewish interpreters to give the passage a Messianic interpretation before the 12th century. You pointed to some Jewish literature that has not given such an interpretation, but I still think it is important that key Jewish authorities such as Maimonides thought that the passage was about the Messiah. Maimonides warned that the Servant in this passage could not be said to refer to the Jewish nation.





e) Many of the details that Isaiah gives, seem to describe a human Messiah (namely, Jesus). For example:


i. His Servanthood begins with his birth from an ordinary mother (Isaiah 49:1, 5).


ii. The Servant experiences normal, humble growth (Isaiah 53:2).


iii. He has the calling of a prophet to sustain the weary (Isaiah 50:4, cf. 49:1-2).






f) In Isaiah 53:8 we read:


"...For the transgressions of My people he was stricken."


Whether "My people" is taken to mean all of God's people or just the Jewish people, it seems that the Servant is sacrificed as a substitutionary offering (asham - the tresspass offering) for the sins of the people. The people would either have been, or would have included, the nation of Israel. So if the Servant is Israel, then Israel is sacrficed as a substitute for Israel! How does that work?






g) The Isaiah 53 passage has obvious and dramatic fulfilments in the crucifixion of Christ. This can be shown to be the case even without resorting to the Gospel records. For example, Roman crucifixions were preceded by flagellation which would have caused the victim's appearance to become "...marred more than any man..." (Isaiah 52:14). And we know from sources such as Tacitus that Jesus was indeed crucified.


Not only does the crucifixion of Jesus correspond easily to the Isaiah 53 passage, it also corresponds with some striking incidents in the Old Testament. An example is where Isaac, who is about to be sacrificed by his father, carries the wood for the sacrifice but ends up escaping death. This points to the time when Jesus who would be sent as a sacrifice by the Father, would carry the wooden crossbar for the sacrifice, but would escape death through his resurrection. (Again, the carrying of the crossbar was customary in Roman crucifixions.)


So I think there is convergence of evidence. Direct prophecies such as those given by Isaiah converge with notable types of Christ in the Tanaach, to suggest that it is the Messiah (Jesus) rather than Israel that is to be sacrificed for the sins of the world.





So I'm sorry, but so far I am not convinced that the Servant in Isaiah 53 is the nation of Israel.


Joe

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not only does the crucifixion of Jesus correspond easily to the Isaiah 53 passage, it also corresponds with some striking incidents in the Old Testament. An example is where Isaac, who is about to be sacrificed by his father, carries the wood for the sacrifice but ends up escaping death. This points to the time when Jesus who would be sent as a sacrifice by the Father, would carry the wooden crossbar for the sacrifice, but would escape death through his resurrection. (Again, the carrying of the crossbar was customary in Roman crucifixions.)

Yepperz!!!

Genesis 22:9 And they come in unto the place of which 'Elohiym hath spoken to him, and there Abraham buildeth the altar, and arrangeth the wood/06086 `ets, and bindeth Yitschaq his son, and placeth him upon the altar above the wood/06086 `ets; 10 and Abraham putteth forth his hand, and taketh the knife--to slaughter his son. 11 And the messenger of YHWH calleth unto him from the heavens, and saith, `Abraham, Abraham;' and he saith, `Here [am] I;' 12 and He saith, `Put not forth thine hand unto the youth, nor do anything to him, for now I have known that thou art fearing 'Elohiym, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only one, from Me.'

Acts 13:29 and when they did complete/etelesan <5055> all the things written about Him, having taken [him] down from the tree/wood/xulou <3586>, they laid Him in a tomb;

Revelation 22:14 `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree/wood/xulon<3586> of the Life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;

 

[muffler dragon]

Okay, I'm back. A few weeks ago, I suffered from a virus which put me in hospital. I'm out now but I get very tired and I'm likely to be like that for a couple of months. Also I am writing a dissertation. So sometimes there will be a delay before I look at your thread.

Sorry to hear that. I wish you well on your recovery.

I see a bit of a problem with your wanting to establish who the Servant is in Isaiah 53 before looking at the context of the passage. The context of the passage helps us to determine who the Servant is, and so seems inseparable from your initial question.

I wanted to go in stages, because the surrounding context is often left out of the equation. In the next couple days, I will start the evaluation of the actual Suffering Servant passage. (when I have the time)

Please feel free to bring these back up when the corresponding passage/verse is raised.

The one part that does deal with outside context is what you wrote here:

It is very difficult to argue that the Servant in Isaiah 53 is the nation of Israel because:

a) A preceding Servant Song says in Isaiah 49:5 that the Servant has a mission to restore Jacob (i.e. the nation of Israel) to God:

You said that my interpretation was not necessarily correct, because the Jewish people had already been partially dispersed by the Assryrian disapora, so they were not one people when Isaiah wrote.

But in the next verse, it is said that the Servant will restore the tribes of Jacob. This is set alongside a reference to the Gentiles who are also treated as one people:

"It is too small a thing that you should ... raise up the tribes of Jacob ... I will also give you as a light to the Gentiles..." (Isaiah 49: 6).

The more plausible interpretation therefore seems to be that the Servant is sent to the whole of Israel. This would mean that the Servant cannot be Israel.

Let's look at the entire chapter. The separated sections are Rashi's commentary.

Isaiah 49
1. Hearken, you islands, to me, and listen closely, you nations, from afar; the Lord called me from the womb, from the innards of my mother He mentioned my name.
2. And He made my mouth like a sharp sword, He concealed me in the shadow of His hand; and He made me into a polished arrow, He hid me in His quiver.
3. And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."
4. And I said, "I toiled in vain, I consumed my strength for nought and vanity." Yet surely my right is with the Lord, and my deed is with my God.
5. And now, the Lord, Who formed me from the womb as a servant to Him, said to bring Jacob back to Him, and Israel shall be gathered to Him, and I will be honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God was my strength.

shall be gathered to Him To Him they shall return in repentance.

6. And He said, "It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth."

And He said, “It is too light for you to be, etc.” In My eyes, it is too small a gift that you should have this alone, that you be My servant to establish Jacob and to bring back to Me the besieged of Israel, and behold I add more to you, “And I will make you a light for the nations,” to prophesy concerning the downfall of Babylon, which will be a joy for the whole world.
and the besieged of Israel Heb. &#1493;&#1468;&#1504;&#1456;&#1510;&#1493;&#1468;&#1512;&#1461;&#1497;. Comp. (Prov. 7:10) “With a heart surrounded by evil thoughts (&#1493;&#1468;&#1504;&#1456;&#1510;&#1467;&#1512;&#1463;&#1514,” that their heart is surrounded by the inclination of sinful thoughts, like a city besieged by a bulwark of those who besiege it.

7. So said the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, about him who is despised of men, about him whom the nation abhors, about a slave of rulers, "Kings shall see and rise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves, for the sake of the Lord Who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, and He chose you."

about him who is despised of men Heb. &#1500;&#1460;&#1489;&#1456;&#1494;&#1465;&#1492; &#1504;&#1462;&#1508;&#1462;&#1513;&#1473;, a despised soul, about Israel, who are despised.
about him whom the nation abhors About him whom the nation abhors, and he is a slave to those who rule over him.
Kings shall see him and rise.
Who is faithful to keep His promise that He promised Abraham concerning the kingdoms, as the matter is stated (Gen. 15: 17): “And behold a smoking stove, etc.”
the Holy One of Israel is He, and He chose you.


8. So said the Lord, "In a time of favor I answered you, and on a day of salvation I helped you; and I will watch you, and I will make you for a people of a covenant, to establish a land, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages.
9. To say to the prisoners, "Go out!" and to the darkness, "Show yourselves!" By the roads they shall graze, and by all rivers is their pasture.
10. They shall neither hunger nor thirst, nor shall the heat and the sun smite them, for He Who has mercy on them shall lead them, and by the springs of water He shall guide them.
11. And I will make all My mountains into a road, and My highways shall be raised.
12. Behold, these shall come from afar, and behold these from the north and from the west, and these from the land of Sinim.
13. Sing, O heavens, and rejoice, O earth, and mountains burst out in song, for the Lord has consoled His people, and He shall have mercy on His poor.
14. And Zion said, "The Lord has forsaken me, and the Lord has forgotten me."
15. Shall a woman forget her sucking child, from having mercy on the child of her womb? These too shall forget, but I will not forget you.
16. Behold on [My] hands have I engraved you; your walls are before Me always.
17. Your sons have hastened; those who destroy you and those who lay you waste shall go forth from you.
18. Lift your eyes around and see, all of them have gathered, have come to you; as I live, says the Lord, that you shall wear all of them as jewelry, and you shall tie them as a bride.
19. For your ruins and your desolate places and your land that has been destroyed, for now you shall be crowded by the inhabitants, and those who would destroy you shall be far away.
20. Your children of whom you were bereaved shall yet say in your ears, "The place is too narrow for me; move over for me so that I will dwell."
21. And you shall say to yourself, "Who begot these for me, seeing that I am bereaved and solitary, exiled and rejected, and who raised these? Behold I was left alone; these-[from] where are they?"
22. So said the Lord God, "Behold I will raise My hand to the nations, and to the peoples will I raise My standard, and they shall bring your sons in their armpits, and your daughters shall be borne on their shoulder.
23. And kings shall be your nursing fathers and their princesses your wet nurses; they shall prostrate themselves to you with their face on the ground, and they shall lick the dust of your feet, and you shall know that I am the Lord, for those who wait for Me shall not be ashamed.
24. Shall prey be taken from a mighty warrior, or shall the captives of the righteous escape?"
25. For so said the Lord, "Even the captives of a mighty warrior can be taken and the prey of a tyrant shall escape, and with your contender will I contend, and your sons I will save.
26. And those who taunt you-I will feed their flesh, and as with sweet wine they shall become drunk [from] their blood; and all flesh shall know that I am the Lord Who saves you, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

Does this help to clarify when looking at the entire chapter and the commentary?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I wanted to go in stages, because the surrounding context is often left out of the equation. In the next couple days, I will start the evaluation of the actual Suffering Servant passage. (when I have the time)

Weren't the Jewish people warned of a time of great distress by Daniel the Prophet?
Just as Jesus suffered and died so would even those that believed unto Him would suffer. These would essentially be the "New Israel" of YHWH in my view. Shalom.

Matt 24:8 and all these [are] the beginning of sorrows; 9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name;
15 `Whenever, therefore, ye may see the abomination of the desolation, that was spoken of through Daniel the prophet,

Daniel 12:1 `And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time,

 

[JoeWill]

Thanks Muffler Dragon, but I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. I read Isaiah chapter 49 through, but of course that does not automatically cause me to see it your way.




I read it like this:



3. And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."


I understand that you see this as a verse relating to the nation of Israel, but I see as Jesus becoming spiritual Israel on the basis of my earlier points.




4. And I said, "I toiled in vain, I consumed my strength for nought and vanity." Yet surely my right is with the Lord, and my deed is with my God.


Jesus speaks of his experience of being rejected by Israel. Nevertheless, the Father will reward his work.




5. And now, the Lord, Who formed me from the womb as a servant to Him, said to bring Jacob back to Him, and Israel shall be gathered to Him, and I will be honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God was my strength.
6. And He said, "It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth."

In these verses the Servant is distinguished from Israel.


His human birth is mentioned.


Jesus has certainly become a "light of nations" - about 2 billion Gentiles todays believe in him.


The future restoration when the Messiah sets up his kingdom is touched upon.




7. So said the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, about him who is despised of men, about him whom the nation abhors, about a slave of rulers...


Isaiah speaks of the first coming of Jesus, when he would be despised by the Jewish nation.



..."Kings shall see and rise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves, for the sake of the Lord Who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, and He chose you."


But on his second coming, kings will bow down before him.




8. So said the Lord, "In a time of favor I answered you, and on a day of salvation I helped you; and I will watch you, and I will make you for a people of a covenant, to establish a land, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages.
9. To say to the prisoners, "Go out!" and to the darkness, "Show yourselves!" By the roads they shall graze, and by all rivers is their pasture.
10. They shall neither hunger nor thirst, nor shall the heat and the sun smite them, for He Who has mercy on them shall lead them, and by the springs of water He shall guide them.
11. And I will make all My mountains into a road, and My highways shall be raised.
12. Behold, these shall come from afar, and behold these from the north and from the west, and these from the land of Sinim.
13. Sing, O heavens, and rejoice, O earth, and mountains burst out in song, for the Lord has consoled His people, and He shall have mercy on His poor.

The Father hears his Son's prayer, raises him from the dead and gives him the task of bringing the Jewish people back to the land.




And so on.


Oh well, it looks like we'll have a good discussion.

 

[muffler dragon]

I understand that you see this as a verse relating to the nation of Israel, but I see as Jesus becoming spiritual Israel on the basis of my earlier points.

Are you a Replacement Theologist? This will determine whether I tread down this path with you or not.

In these verses the Servant is distinguished from Israel.

That's why I provided Rashi's commentary. So that you can see one Judaic take on it.

]His human birth is mentioned.

This is not a thread for the discussion of the trinity.

Jesus has certainly become a "light of nations" - about 2 billion Gentiles todays believe in him.

If we're going to base our decisions on things like this (which is an Appeal to Popularity fallacy); then Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism, etc. would all be credible and viable. Thus, univeralism reigns.

The future restoration when the Messiah sets up his kingdom is touched upon.

Whereas, I don't see any of the chapter as being Messianic.

]Isaiah speaks of the first coming of Jesus, when he would be despised by the Jewish nation.

How exactly was he despised by the Jewish nation?

]But on his second coming, kings will bow down before him.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

I don't see a death in between.

The Father hears his Son's prayer, raises him from the dead and gives him the task of bringing the Jewish people back to the land.

Which he failed to do the first time, and it's happening before he comes back. There's no credit there.

Oh well, it looks like we'll have a good discussion.

I'll start the verse/passage thing this weekend or early next week.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Are you a Replacement Theologist? This will determine whether I tread down this path with you or not.

I believe that is more of the catholics, where the Pope is essentially the new "High Priest" and their church is the New Israel.

Hebrews 7:12 for the priesthood/ierwsunhV <2420> being changed, of necessity also, of law a change doth come,

Matthew 24:1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the Temple, and his Disciples came near to show him the buildings of the Temple/ierou

 

[JoeWill]

Are you a Replacement Theologist? This will determine whether I tread down this path with you or not.

That's why I provided Rashi's commentary. So that you can see one Judaic take on it.



This is not a thread for the discussion of the trinity.



If we're going to base our decisions on things like this (which is an Appeal to Popularity fallacy); then Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism, etc. would all be credible and viable. Thus, univeralism reigns.



Whereas, I don't see any of the chapter as being Messianic.



How exactly was he despised by the Jewish nation?

]But on his second coming, kings will bow down before him.[/color]

[/SIZE][/FONT]

I don't see a death in between.



Which he failed to do the first time, and it's happening before he comes back. There's no credit there.



I'll start the verse/passage thing this weekend or early next week.

Muffler Dragon,

1) I've never heard the term "replacement theologian" before. I believe that Jesus and those united with him via the Holy Spirit are true Israel. My belief is rooted mainly in the John 15 tradition with Jesus' "I am the true vine" statement.

2) My mention of Jesus' human birth in Isaiah 49:1 was not in relation to the Trinity. I am looking at the context of the passage (as you recommended). The passage makes reference to the Servant being called / formed from the womb. This causes me to think of the Servant being born as an individual human being, and not as the Servant being a nation of people. This would point to Jesus being the Servant and not the Jewish nation.

"And now, the Lord, Who formed me from the womb as a servant to Him" Isaiah 49:1

3) Yes, leaders of other beliefs systems such as atheism could be argued to be a light to the nations in fulfilment of Isaiah 49:6, in the same way as Jesus has been. But you would also have to find someone who has become a light to the Gentiles and who died in the manner depicted in Isaiah 53. Also they would have had to have died some time before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem - because Daniel :25-26 has the Mashiach Naghid being "cut off" (Yikrael probably means killed) before its destruction. Can you think of anyone other than Jesus who meets all three criteria?

4) You asked: "How exactly was Jesus despised by the Jesus nation?". Some examples: The gospels make reference to rejections and opposition, and these verses are unlikely to be fabricated because they would have been embarassing for the early church. The book of Acts and Paul's letters, record the persecution of people professing faith in Jesus. I also understand that Jewish rabbis began to use the expression "Jesus ben Panthera" - "Jesus the leopard" in response to the early church's expression "Jesus ben parthenos" - "Jesus the son of the virgin". The Talmud also contains some hostile references to Jesus.

I am keen to avoid giving the impression that I am making anti-Semitic statements - I want Jewish people to come to Jesus the Jewish Messiah. But a case can easily be put together that Jesus was despised.

5) You said "I don't see a death in between". Do what you told us to do - look at the context of Isaiah 49 to understand Isaiah 53. In Isaiah 49, the Servant is despised then highly exalted. And in Isaiah 53 the Servant is despised, he dies, and is then raised to life and highly exalted!

 

[JoeWill]

Muffler Dragon,


1) I've never heard the term "replacement theologian" before. I believe that Jesus and those united with him via the Holy Spirit are true Israel. My belief is rooted mainly in the John 15 tradition with Jesus' "I am the true vine" statement.


2) My mention of Jesus' human birth in Isaiah 49:1 was not in relation to the Trinity. I am looking at the context of the passage (as you recommended). The passage makes reference to the Servant being called / formed from the womb. This causes me to think of the Servant being born as an individual human being, and not as the Servant being a nation of people. This would point to Jesus being the Servant and not the Jewish nation.


"And now, the Lord, Who formed me from the womb as a servant to Him" Isaiah 49:1


3) Yes, leaders of other beliefs systems such as atheism could be argued to be a light to the nations in fulfilment of Isaiah 49:6, in the same way as Jesus has been. But you would also have to find someone who has become a light to the Gentiles and who died in the manner depicted in Isaiah 53. Also they would have had to have died some time before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem - because Daniel :25-26 has the Mashiach Naghid being "cut off" (Yikrael probably means killed) before its destruction. Can you think of anyone other than Jesus who meets all three criteria?


4) You asked: "How exactly was Jesus despised by the Jesus nation?". Some examples: The gospels make reference to rejections and opposition, and these verses are unlikely to be fabricated because they would have been embarassing for the early church. The book of Acts and Paul's letters, record the persecution of people professing faith in Jesus. I also understand that Jewish rabbis began to use the expression "Jesus ben Panthera" - "Jesus the leopard" in response to the early church's expression "Jesus ben parthenos" - "Jesus the son of the virgin". The Talmud also contains some hostile references to Jesus.


I am keen to avoid giving the impression that I am making anti-Semitic statements - I want Jewish people to come to Jesus the Jewish Messiah. But a case can easily be put together that Jesus was despised.


5) You said "I don't see a death in between". Do what you told us to do - look at the context of Isaiah 49 to understand Isaiah 53. In Isaiah 49, the Servant is despised then highly exalted. And in Isaiah 53 the Servant is despised, he dies, and is then raised to life and highly exalted!

I gave you quite a few problems to answer with regard to the Servant in Isaiah 53 being the nation of Israel. These remain unanswered and your focus on Isaiah 49 just seems to have caused you more problems.




All the best,

Joe

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

5) You said "I don't see a death in between". Do what you told us to do - look at the context of Isaiah 49 to understand Isaiah 53. In Isaiah 49, the Servant is despised then highly exalted. And in Isaiah 53 the Servant is despised, he dies, and is then raised to life and highly exalted!

What is the meaning of this Hebrew word in Isaiah 53:8?

This form of the word used also in 2 chron 26:21, Ester 2:1

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 53:8 From-restraint and-from-judgement he-is-taken and-generation-of-him, who he-shall-meditate?
That he-was-severed from-land-of living ones, from-transgression-of people-of-Me touch/plague to-them.

01504 gazar {gaw-zar'} a primitive root; TWOT - 340; v
AV - cut off 6, divide 3, decree 2, cut down 1, snatch 1; 13
1) to cut, divide, cut down, cut off, cut in two, snatch, decree
1a) (Qal)

2 Chronicles 26:21 And it came to pass that, Uzziah the king, was a leper until the day of his death, and dwelt in a house apart--a leper, for he-was-cut-off from the house of Yahweh,--and, Jotham his son, was over the house of the king, judging the people of the land.

Esther 2:1 After these things, when the wrath of King Ahasuerus was appeased, he remembered Vashti, and what she had done, and which he-was-severed on her.

 

[JoeWill]

What is the meaning of this Hebrew word in Isaiah 53:8?

This form of the word used also in 2 chron 26:21, Ester 2:1

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 53:8 From-restraint and-from-judgement he-is-taken and-generation-of-him, who he-shall-meditate?
That he-was-severed from-land-of living ones, from-transgression-of people-of-Me touch/plague to-them.

01504 gazar {gaw-zar'} a primitive root; TWOT - 340; v
AV - cut off 6, divide 3, decree 2, cut down 1, snatch 1; 13
1) to cut, divide, cut down, cut off, cut in two, snatch, decree
1a) (Qal)

Exactly.

Look at Isaiah 49:7:

Thus says the LORD,
The Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One,
To Him who man despises,
To Him who the nation abhors...

Speaks of the first coming of Jesus when he was rejected.

...To the Servant of rulers:
Kings shall see and arise,
Princes shall also worship...

Speaks of Jesus being highly exalted.



Then Isaiah 53:3, 8, 12

He is despised and rejected of men...

...For he was cut off from the land of the living...

Speaks of the first coming of Jesus when he was rejected and killed.

Therefore I shall divide him a portion with the great,
And he shall divided the spoil with the strong...

Speaks of Jesus being highly exalted after his death.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Then Isaiah 53:3, 8, 12

He is despised and rejected of men...

...For he was cut off from the land of the living...

Speaks of the first coming of Jesus when he was rejected and killed.

Therefore I shall divide him a portion with the great,
And he shall divided the spoil with the strong...

Speaks of Jesus being highly exalted after his death.

I was doing a word study on the word "Parousia" and it appears to come from the greek word "ousia" which means goods and substances. Pretty interesting because both Jesus [only in Matthew 24] and Paul used that word

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the Mount of the olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the Sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>, and the full-End of the Age?'

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may confirms your hearts, faultless in holiness, before our God and Father, in the Parousia <3952> of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

3776. ousia oo-see'-ah from the feminine of 5607; substance, i.e. property (possessions):--goods, substance.

Revelation 22:12 And lo, I come swiftly, and the Reward/misqoV <3408> of Me with me, to render to each as his work shall be;

 

[muffler dragon]

Due to a lack of further discussion regarding the external context of the Suffering Servant, it's time to move to the internal discussion. Below is the passage in its entirity. I am using:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=15984

This will be the translation of choice as it is the only one easily available online that does not utilize the Septuagint in any way, shape or form. We will move by verse or particular passage. I have no interest in discussing the passage as one big lump. The next post will be the first section to discuss.

Isaiah 52
13. Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.
14. As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"
15. So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.
Isaiah 53
1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

 

[muffler dragon]

Isaiah 52
13. Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

Here's Rashi's commentary on this verse:

Behold My servant shall prosper Behold, at the end of days, My servant, Jacob, [i.e.,] the righteous among him, shall prosper.