Is it always like this?

[simchat_torah]

Every sect of Judaism that I am aware of believes in a Messiah (whether he as come yet or not). Orthodox, Chabad, Reform, Conservative, etc....
Whether they "messianic age" is literal or figurative is subject to debate, and no consensus is reached even within each sect (other than Chabad). But believe me, they all believe a Messiah will come, thus a "belief in a messiah" exists across the board (again, this is taken figuratively or literally).

 

[simchat_torah]

Perhaps he was referencing observant Jews.

For the most part, this is absolutely true... but even Reform believe in a Messiah. Read their new Siddur (Mishkan T'filah <- link)... its all over the place.

 

[Henaynei]

Perhaps he was referencing observant Jews.

perhaps he was.... he did say "all Jews" but the misunderstanding would be mine if he meant something other than all.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[simchat_torah]

nope, you were correct Henny...

see above.

 

[Henaynei]

Every sect of Judaism that I am aware of believes in a Messiah (whether he as come yet or not). Orthodox, Chabad, Reform, Conservative, etc....
Whether they "messianic age" is literal or figurative is subject to debate, and no consensus is reached even within each sect (other than Chabad). But believe me, they all believe a Messiah will come, thus a "belief in a messiah" exists across the board (again, this is taken figuratively or literally).

As I said, your experience in this markedly differs from mine.

Even at a stretch, hope for a Messianic age is a far reach from belief in a Messiah or a Messianic Age. A hope for a Messianic Age does not make one Messianic. And a great many of the Jewish people with whom I've had the opportunity to investigate such a topic hardly even hope for such a thing.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[Henaynei]

nope, you were correct Henny...

see above.

thanks Yafet you are gracious

 

[simchat_torah]

A hope for a Messianic Age does not make one Messianic.

Depends on how you define Messianic. A deep and longing hope exists in every major sect of Judaism for a Messianic age of peace to rule the world. Maybe its been years since you picked up a siddur? (that isn't an insult, but merely since our experiences differ this could be why)

 

[simchat_torah]

And a great many of the Jewish people with whom I've had the opportunity to investigate such a topic hardly even hope for such a thing.

I think there is also a large difference between what individual Jews believe vs. what the sect (or siddur, or rabbi, or beit din) teaches on a grander scale.

 

[Talmidah]

perhaps he was.... he did say "all Jews" but the misunderstanding would be mine if he meant something other than all.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

No, you're correct and I apologize for sticking my 2 cents in here.

 

[Henaynei]

I think there is also a large difference between what individual Jews believe vs. what the sect (or siddur, or rabbi, or beit din) teaches on a grander scale.

indeed, the teachings of leadership is often widely divergent from the beliefs of the individual - as evidenced by the beliefs in here vs the teachings of the MJ leadership But when one says "all Jews" the conotation is rarely only the teachings of those who actually believe in G-d, else that would consign a great many Jews to a being non-Jewish

b;Shalom
Henaynei

 

[Henaynei]

No, you're correct and I apologize for sticking my 2 cents in here.

 

[simchat_torah]

I never turn to an individual to find out what their sect believes. If I want to find out what Catholocism teaches, I typically don't turn to a Catholic, I turn to an authority... maybe a Priest, or someone who is qualified to give the Catholic response.

Same with Judaism. If you want to know what "Jews" believe, you would turn to an authority... a Rabbi, or the Beit Din, or the Siddur, or something along those lines. All of which, will certainly tell you the same: We hope for the Messianic reign of peace in our world.

Maybe I mispoke when I used the word "all", but I was referring to Jews as a belief of Judaism, not of individuals.

shalom,
Yafet

 

[Henaynei]

I never turn to an individual to find out what their sect believes. If I want to find out what Catholocism teaches, I typically don't turn to a Catholic, I turn to an authority... maybe a Priest, or someone who is qualified to give the Catholic response.

Same with Judaism. If you want to know what "Jews" believe, you would turn to an authority... a Rabbi, or the Beit Din, or the Siddur, or something along those lines. All of which, will certainly tell you the same: We hope for the Messianic reign of peace in our world.

Maybe I mispoke when I used the word "all", but I was referring to Jews as a belief of Judaism, not of individuals.

shalom,
Yafet

then I could say that we agree that all denominational Judaism (that being their leadership and teachings) believes in some event which they call the Messianic Age, whether or not it actually includes a Messiah

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[nasa1]

Like "You're anathema" - oops "No you're not". "Yes you are" - "well, not now". My head spins!

LOL, excellent observation!


One of the worst things to happen to the temple of G-d is that creeds and rules were created that decided who was "in" and who was "out." You cannot do that to people, for a relationship with G-d is not necessarily based on knowledge, but on G-d's sovereign choice to save you, despite what you know or do not know.

I am so sick of it...the gospel is not, "Join the Catholic church, believe in a Trinity, get baptized, speak in tongues, keep the law, oh and try to fit belief in Jesus somewhere in there, and you'll be saved."

The problem is man has made belief in Jesus to be a set of rules and creeds. It is amazing to me that at one point in history, I could a murdering little bugger, but be considered saved because I was "orthodox" and was faithful to the Catholic Church!

The other day I was thinking, "I respect the works of Calvin, but that guy would oversee my death because I am not Trinitarian!" It's crazy.

NASA