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Isaiah 53: A Contextual Discussion

muffler dragon

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I had written this some time ago, and I'll let it be part of the OP again:

As we look at the book of Isaiah, we should first make mention of the fact that the division of the Bible into chapters and verses is only for finding; not for determining theology.

I bring this to attention, because of the continuity that we find within the book of Isaiah.

I would like to present the following verses to form a foundation.

Isaiah 41
8. But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9. Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you.

Isaiah 42
19. Who is blind but My servant, and deaf as My messenger whom I will send? He who was blind is as the one who received his payment, and he who was blind is as the servant of the Lord.
20. There is much to see but you do not observe, to open the ears but no one listens.

Isaiah 43
10. "You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be.

Isaiah 44
1. And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 2. So said HaShem your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 44
21. "Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are my servant, O Israel. I have made you, you are my servant; O Israel, I will not forget you.

Isaiah 45
4. For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me.

Isaiah 49
3. And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

Isaiah 49
7. This is what HaShem says- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of HaShem , who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."

This is even consistent outside of Isaiah.

Jeremiah 30
10. And you, fear not, My servant Jacob, says the Lord, and do not be dismayed, O Israel, for behold I save you from afar and your seed from the land of their captivity, and Jacob shall again be silent and at ease, and no one will frighten them.
11. For I am with you, says the Lord, to save you, for I will make an end of all the nations where I dispersed you, but of you I will not make an end, but I will chasten you in measure, and I will not completely destroy you.
12. For so said the Lord: Your injury is painful, your wound grievous.
13. No one deems your wound to be healed, you have no healing medicines.
14. All your lovers have forgotten you, they do not seek you, for I have smitten you with the wound of an enemy, cruel chastisement, for the greatness of your iniquity; your sins are many.
15. Why do you cry about your injury [that] your pain is severe? For the magnitude of your iniquity, [since] your sins are many, I have done these to you.
16. Therefore, all who devour you shall be devoured, and all your adversaries, yea all of them, shall go into captivity, and those who plunder you shall be plunder, and all who prey upon you I will give for prey.
17. For I will bring healing to you, and of your wounds I will heal you, says the Lord, for they called you an outcast, that is Zion whom no one seeks out.

And now, we come to the text of debate:

Isaiah 52:13-53:12
13. Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.
14. As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"
15. So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.
1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

So, we see from nine occasions outside of Isaiah 52-53 that Israel/Jacob is referred to as the "Servant". This is the context of the passage that proceeds. Does it not stand to reason that all situations are synonymous? The similarities, not only in grammar, but also in detail are very interesting between the Jeremiah passage and the Isaiah passage.
Another key note of interest in this entire passage, and all that have been expressed is that there is a complete absence of "Messiah". There is no inference; nor overt statement regarding these passages as being Messianic.

The following conclusions can be made from what has been expressed above:

1) Contextually, the "Servant" is Israel/Jacob.
2) These passages are not Messianic.

The following is provided by an acquaintance of mine the delves into the surrounding context as well:

1. Israel is described as God's servant (Isa 41:8, etc.) who is afflicted and oppressed in Isaiah 49:13, 51:21, 54:11-15, and 60:14-15.

2. Israel is described as being led like sheep to slaughter in Psalm 44:23.

Psalm 44
23. For it is for Your sake that we are killed all the time, [that] we are considered as sheep for the slaughter

3. Israel is promised future exaltation with seed and long life in Isaiah 60, 61, 65, etc.

These are just some examples to show how the servant of Isaiah 53 can be shown with scriptural evidence to be Israel. Israel is explicitly identified in the above passages as bearing the very same characteristics of the servant of Isaiah 53.

This opens up the surrounding context of Isaiah 53. After this topic has been exhausted, we can discuss the internal context.
 

LittleLambofJesus

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:) This should also interest the Muslims as I think they view Isaiah 54 as applying to Muhammad.
Will wait for for your interpretation MF and I do believe the whole book of Isaiah does concern Judah and Israel. Shalom. :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 1:1 The Visions of Y@sha`yah son of 'Amowts, that he hath seen concerning Y@huwdah and Y@ruwshalaim, in the days of `Uzziyah, Yowtham, 'Achaz, Y@chizqiyah, kings of Y@huwdah. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth, For YHWH hath spoken: Sons I have nourished and brought up, And they--they transgressed against Me.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

http://www.scripture4all.org/

 
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muffler dragon

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:) This should also interest the Muslims as I think they view Isaiah 54 as applying to Muhammad.
Will wait for for your interpretation MF and I do believe the whole book of Isaiah does concern Judah and Israel. Shalom. :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 1:1 The Visions of Y@sha`yah son of 'Amowts, that he hath seen concerning Y@huwdah and Y@ruwshalaim, in the days of `Uzziyah, Yowtham, 'Achaz, Y@chizqiyah, kings of Y@huwdah. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth, For YHWH hath spoken: Sons I have nourished and brought up, And they--they transgressed against Me.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

http://www.scripture4all.org/


LLoJ:

Let's not derail this consideration with Muhammed and Islam, okay?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LLoJ:

Let's not derail this consideration with Muhammed and Islam, okay?
Ok sorry.
Isaiah chapter one starts off with this statement concerning Judah and Jerusalem and the same hebrew word for "transgression/rebellion" is used both in Isaiah 1 and 53 though the spelling appears different. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 1:1 The Visions of Y@sha`yah son of 'Amowts, that he hath seen concerning Y@huwdah and Y@ruwshalaim, in the days of `Uzziyah, Yowtham, 'Achaz, Y@chizqiyah, kings of Y@huwdah. 2 Hear, O Heavens, and give ear, O Land, For YHWH hath spoken: Sons I have nourished and brought up, And they--they transgressed/06586 pasha`against Me.

Isaiah 53:8 From-restraint and-from-judgement he-is-taken and-generation-of-him, who he-shall-meditate?
That he-was-severed from-land-of living ones, from-transgression-of/06588 pesha` people-of-Me touch/plague to-them.
 
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muffler dragon

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Isaiah chapter one starts off with this statement concerning Judah and Jerusalem and the same hebrew word for "transgression/rebellion" is used both in Isaiah 1 and 53 though the spelling appears different. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 1:1 The Visions of Y@sha`yah son of 'Amowts, that he hath seen concerning Y@huwdah and Y@ruwshalaim, in the days of `Uzziyah, Yowtham, 'Achaz, Y@chizqiyah, kings of Y@huwdah. 2 Hear, O Heavens, and give ear, O Land, For YHWH hath spoken: Sons I have nourished and brought up, And they--they transgressed/06586 pasha`against Me.

Isaiah 53:8 From-restraint and-from-judgement he-is-taken and-generation-of-him, who he-shall-meditate?
That he-was-severed from-land-of living ones, from-transgression-of/06588 pesha` people-of-Me touch/plague to-them.

I'm going to use a little bit clearer translation.

Isaiah 1
1. The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
2. Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth, for the Lord has spoken; Children I have raised and exalted, yet they have rebelled against Me.

Isaiah 53
8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

My thought is that this could be a further consideration to show that the Servant of Isaiah 52-53 is Israel.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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My thought is that this could be a further consideration to show that the Servant of Isaiah 52-53 is Israel.
Hi. How does Judah/Jerusalem fit in then, as the Messiah is suppose to come from a descendant of David/Solomon, who were the Kings of all Israel until it was divided?
 
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muffler dragon

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Hi. How does Judah/Jerusalem fit in then,


This will be something to bring up later when we discuss internal context of Isaiah 52-53.

LLoJ said:
as the Messiah is suppose to come from a descendant of David/Solomon, who were the Kings of all Israel until it was divided?

I don't believe that Isaiah 1 or Isaiah 52-53 were Messianic; therefore, it's not really relevant.

If you want a list of Jewish kings; then you can wiki it or I believe there is a list at messiahtruth.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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This will be something to bring up later when we discuss internal context of Isaiah 52-53.

I don't believe that Isaiah 1 or Isaiah 52-53 were Messianic; therefore, it's not really relevant.

If you want a list of Jewish kings; then you can wiki it or I believe there is a list at messiahtruth.
I believe the Division of Israel is very relevant after the death of King Solomon.

That event was a hugh Milestone in the history of the Hebrew Israelites concerning both nations/kingdoms of Judah and Israel.

I will work on harmonizing each verse of Isaiah 53 with the rest of the OT prophecies as time allows using Hebrews words for Names.

The priestly tribe of Levi joined also with the Kingdom of Judah. Peace.

In these verses of I Kings 11 is given by God the reason for the split of the Nation of Israel into two separate 'kingdoms'. The date this prophecy is given here in I Kings is around 897-890 B.C. Notice that God said He would not 'rend away all the kingdom' of Israel, 'but will give one tribe' to Solomon's son Rehoboam. Which tribe would that be? It was Judah, the Royal Sceptre tribe.

Since Levi is not to have any national heritage of land as the other tribes, i.e., their heritage being of God, they are always figured in with the tribe of Judah (Num.3 & 18). Benjamin will be also, as we will later discover in Scripture.
 
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muffler dragon

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I believe it is very relevant concerning the Division of Israel and Judah after the death of King Solomon.

That event was a hugh Milestone in the history of the Hebrew Israelites concerning both nations/kingdoms of Judah and Israel.

Let me see if I'm understanding your POV correctly. Are you saying that the division in the kingdom spawned the rebellion/transgression later on that is being spoken of in Isaiah 53?

LLoJ said:
I will work on harmonizing each verse of Isaiah 53 with the rest of the OT prophecies as time allows using Hebrews words for Names.

Prophesies regarding what in particular? A certain theme?
 
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Rut

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Quote:
"The following conclusions can be made from what has been expressed above:

1) Contextually, the "Servant" is Israel/Jacob.
2) These passages are not Messianic."

I can`t understand that can be Israel/Jacob.For me is it more about Jesus

For example
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

Compare chapter 11:1

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth

Compare Matthew 27:58, 60
 
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muffler dragon

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I can`t understand that can be Israel/Jacob.For me is it more about Jesus

For example
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

Compare chapter 11:1

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth

Compare Matthew 27:58, 60

Rut:

Thanks for joining the thread.

After we discuss the surrounding context of Isaiah 52-53, we'll get into the verses themselves.

Do you have anything to refute the position and substantiation that I have presented thus far from the rest of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Psalms?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I would like to present the following verses to form a foundation.

Isaiah 41
8. But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9. Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you.

Isaiah 42
19. Who is blind but My servant, and deaf as My messenger whom I will send? He who was blind is as the one who received his payment, and he who was blind is as the servant of the Lord.
20. There is much to see but you do not observe, to open the ears but no one listens.

Isaiah 43
10. "You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be.

Isaiah 44
1. And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 2. So said HaShem your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 44
21. "Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are my servant, O Israel. I have made you, you are my servant; O Israel, I will not forget you.

Isaiah 45
4. For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me.

Isaiah 49
3. And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

Isaiah 49
7. This is what HaShem says- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of HaShem , who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."
It will take time for me to respond to all of this, as to me, Isaiah is essentially a whole "mini-Bible" in itself, even without the other OT books. Shalom.
 
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muffler dragon

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It will take time for me to respond to all of this, as to me, Isaiah is essentially a whole "mini-Bible" in itself, even without the other OT books. Shalom.

What do you mean when you call Isaiah, "a whole mini-Bible in itself"?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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What do you mean when you call Isaiah, "a whole mini-Bible in itself"?
I don't think there is one book in both the Hebrew OT Scriptures and Greek NT Scriptures that Isaiah doesn't mention.
In fact, I could just about interpret the whole GNT book of Revelation just from Isaiah alone. I have only got 6 chapters of it translated so far though as I am trying to as accurately translate it as is possible. :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye-say: `We-cut/karath a-Covenant/b@riyth with Death, And-with Sh@'owl we-made a seer/02374 chozeh, a-scourge overflowing that passeth-over, not he-shall-enter-in-to-us. That we set a-lie/kazab as a-refuge-of-us/machaceh, and in-falsehood/sheqer we-are-concealed/cathar.'
18 And-shall-be-atoned/kaphar, Covenant-of-you with death, and-seer with Sh@'owl , not she-shall-be-rise, scourge
Reve 1: 18 and the living-One! And I became dead, and behold, I am living into of-the Ages to-the Ages; Amen. And I-am-having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death
 
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muffler dragon

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Thanks for the thread, MD. I'm subscribing. :cool:

You're welcome. If the activity on this thread stays rather dormant; then I'll start the discussion on the internal context in a few days. Gotta go in stages in order to maintain decorum and trains of thought.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You're welcome. If the activity on this thread stays rather dormant; then I'll start the discussion on the internal context in a few days. Gotta go in stages in order to maintain decorum and trains of thought.
:) Ready for stage 1 whenever you are md and hopefully we will use accurate Hebrew translations. Shalom. :wave:
 
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J

JoeWill

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I had written this some time ago, and I'll let it be part of the OP again:

As we look at the book of Isaiah, we should first make mention of the fact that the division of the Bible into chapters and verses is only for finding; not for determining theology.

I bring this to attention, because of the continuity that we find within the book of Isaiah.

I would like to present the following verses to form a foundation.

Isaiah 41
8. But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9. Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you.

Isaiah 42
19. Who is blind but My servant, and deaf as My messenger whom I will send? He who was blind is as the one who received his payment, and he who was blind is as the servant of the Lord.
20. There is much to see but you do not observe, to open the ears but no one listens.

Isaiah 43
10. "You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be.

Isaiah 44
1. And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 2. So said HaShem your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 44
21. "Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are my servant, O Israel. I have made you, you are my servant; O Israel, I will not forget you.

Isaiah 45
4. For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me.

Isaiah 49
3. And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

Isaiah 49
7. This is what HaShem says- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of HaShem , who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."

This is even consistent outside of Isaiah.

Jeremiah 30
10. And you, fear not, My servant Jacob, says the Lord, and do not be dismayed, O Israel, for behold I save you from afar and your seed from the land of their captivity, and Jacob shall again be silent and at ease, and no one will frighten them.
11. For I am with you, says the Lord, to save you, for I will make an end of all the nations where I dispersed you, but of you I will not make an end, but I will chasten you in measure, and I will not completely destroy you.
12. For so said the Lord: Your injury is painful, your wound grievous.
13. No one deems your wound to be healed, you have no healing medicines.
14. All your lovers have forgotten you, they do not seek you, for I have smitten you with the wound of an enemy, cruel chastisement, for the greatness of your iniquity; your sins are many.
15. Why do you cry about your injury [that] your pain is severe? For the magnitude of your iniquity, [since] your sins are many, I have done these to you.
16. Therefore, all who devour you shall be devoured, and all your adversaries, yea all of them, shall go into captivity, and those who plunder you shall be plunder, and all who prey upon you I will give for prey.
17. For I will bring healing to you, and of your wounds I will heal you, says the Lord, for they called you an outcast, that is Zion whom no one seeks out.

And now, we come to the text of debate:

Isaiah 52:13-53:12
13. Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.
14. As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"
15. So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.
1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

So, we see from nine occasions outside of Isaiah 52-53 that Israel/Jacob is referred to as the "Servant". This is the context of the passage that proceeds. Does it not stand to reason that all situations are synonymous? The similarities, not only in grammar, but also in detail are very interesting between the Jeremiah passage and the Isaiah passage.
Another key note of interest in this entire passage, and all that have been expressed is that there is a complete absence of "Messiah". There is no inference; nor overt statement regarding these passages as being Messianic.

The following conclusions can be made from what has been expressed above:

1) Contextually, the "Servant" is Israel/Jacob.
2) These passages are not Messianic.

The following is provided by an acquaintance of mine the delves into the surrounding context as well:



This opens up the surrounding context of Isaiah 53. After this topic has been exhausted, we can discuss the internal context.


Hello,

Some comments:

There are some real problem with alleging that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is Israel:


1) In Isaiah 49:5 the Servant is given a mission to Israel. That is to say, the Servant is sent to bring the Jewish nation back to God:

"And now the LORD says,
Who formed me in the womb to be His Servant,
to bring Jacob back to Him..."

Therefore the Servant in Isaiah 49 must be distinct from Israel.


2) In Isaiah 53 the Suffering Servant is spoken of in the second person singular ("he" and "him") and the Jewish nation in the first person plural ("we" and "our").


3) The Servant in Isaiah 53:9 is depicted as being innocent:

"...Because he had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in his mouth."

Isaiah certainly did not perceive the nation of Israel as being innocent, saying that their hands were "full of blood" (Isaiah 1:15b, 59:3a). So he must be talking about someone other than the nation of Israel.


4) Jewish interpreters before the time of Christ commonly taught that the Isaiah 53 passage was Messianic. It only became a common expression of the suffering of the Jewish people after Christians began to use the text as an apologetic evidence. In fact, today the passage is left out of the Haftorah readings in the synagogue, suggesting that its implications are still too uncomfortable for the congregation to contemplate.


The Messiah takes over from Israel as the Servant in Isaiah 49:5. He would succeed in the task that God had given him, whereas the Jewish nation had failed. Thus the Messiah becomes spiritual Israel.

This is what is meant by the tradition in John 15, where Jesus says, "I am the true vine and you are the branches". The vine was used as a symbol of Israel and appeared on Jewish coins in that context. Jesus is saying that he is the true Servant Israel, together with all those believers, Jews and Gentiles, who are joined with him.

I urge to to reread Isaiah chapter 53 with an open heart, believe that God is revealing his plan of salvation therein, and receive Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour.

Joe
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I urge to to reread Isaiah chapter 53 with an open heart, believe that God is revealing his plan of salvation therein, and receive Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour.
Then why does JESUS have to return again as a "suffering servant" in the future to deliver/reveal the same message again to Israel and the Jews as Christ-ians and Muslims believe :)

Edit to add: I see this thread is probably going to go off into different directions. Hope not.
 
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muffler dragon

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Happy Birthday, Joe.

Some comments:

There are some real problem with alleging that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is Israel:

1) In Isaiah 49:5 the Servant is given a mission to Israel. That is to say, the Servant is sent to bring the Jewish nation back to God

"And now the LORD says Who formed me in the womb to be His Servant, to bring Jacob back to Him

Therefore the Servant in Isaiah 49 must be distinct from Israel.

Actually, this is not the case. Isaiah was written after one Diaspora. Therefore, there can be a distinction made between those Jews in in the land of Israel and those not.

Joe said:
2) In Isaiah 53 the Suffering Servant is spoken of in the second person singular ("he" and "him") and the Jewish nation in the first person plural ("we" and "our").

Actually, this isn't the case either. The Nation of Israel is referred to in the singular many times: G-d's son, G-d's firstborn and so on.

Joe said:
3) The Servant in Isaiah 53:9 is depicted as being innocent: "...Because he had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in his mouth

Feel free to bring this back up when we discuss the context within Isaiah 52-53.

Joe said:
4) Jewish interpreters before the time of Christ commonly taught that the Isaiah 53 passage was Messianic. It only became a common expression of the suffering of the Jewish people after Christians began to use the text as an apologetic evidence. In fact, today the passage is left out of the Haftorah readings in the synagogue, suggesting that its implications are still too uncomfortable for the congregation to contemplate.

You need to lose this Christian propaganda.

Isaiah 53 CAN be considered Messianic in midrash aggadah; however, it is NEVER considered Messianic in the p-s-h-a-t interpretation.

Furthermore, Isaiah 53 was NEVER a part of a Haftorah reading. There is NOTHING in the Torah that would have corresponded. Your usage of this blatant lie makes me believe two things:

1) You have no idea what Midrash Aggadah is.
2) You have no idea what the Haftorahs are or why they were started.

If you want to go down this path upon the discussion within the context of 52-53; then I suggest you study up as I'll be expecting source material and substantiation.

Joe said:
The Messiah takes over from Israel as the Servant in Isaiah 49:5. He would succeed in the task that God had given him, whereas the Jewish nation had failed. Thus the Messiah becomes spiritual Israel.

Ahh... so you're a Replacement Theologist. Good to know. Btw, your claim above hasn't been substantiated yet. However, if you stick around; then I'll give you every opportunity to do so.

Joe said:
I urge to to reread Isaiah chapter 53 with an open heart, believe that God is revealing his plan of salvation therein, and receive Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour.

I'll give you a little history, Joe, so that you can refrain from comments like this in the future.

I was a Christian for over 20 years. I've read the NIV, NASB, KJV, NKJV, Amplified and Living translations from front to back. I've also read Isaiah 52-53 from a Jewish Tanakh. Believe me, I've read it with an "open heart". Yet, I'll admonish you to do something in return: read the Jewish Scriptures from a Jewish perspective and learn about them from someone with a Judaic understanding. Then, you'll have a shot at understanding the context.

If there isn't much more feedback in the next day or so, I'll go to the internal context.

Btw, unless shown otherwise, the internal context WILL have the surrounding context as support.
 
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