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More whacky ideas about peer review from ICR.

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Deamiter

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archaeologist, I know you've dodged the question before, but could you perhaps define "secular science" as opposed to some other kind of science (divine science or theistic science perhaps)? Such a definition would help immensely for those of us who try to discuss these issues with you. Without a commonly accepted (or at least explicit) definition, the phrase "secular science" really doesn't mean anything to those of us who have never seen it used by anybody but you.
 
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archaeologist

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Even when I was a creationist, I never saw a paper that was rejected from a normal journal for reasons of bias

you are naive aren't you.


I know you've dodged the question before, but could you perhaps define "secular science"

the definition is in two other threads.
 
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Deamiter

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you are naive aren't you.
I've never seen such a paper either. Perhaps we are not naive, just uninformed. Could you show us the rejection letters for one or two papers that were rejected on the basis of being creationist?

the definition is in two other threads.
Funny, I must have missed them. Since you've made up the phrase could you perhaps define it again so those of us who weren't following these other threads can understand your point in THIS thread?
 
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archaeologist

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Could you show us the rejection letters for one or two papers that were rejected on the basis of being creationist?

this kind of claim that is being made:

Even when I was a creationist, I never saw a paper that was rejected from a normal journal for reasons of bias

is typical for everyone knows that the journal cannot provide bias as a reason for rejection. why?

1. it would give creationists legitimacy for their complaints; 2. it would be deemed discrimination and open the journal to lawsuits, and other charges; 3. it would undermine the credibility of the journal; 4. it would show that secular science is not honest.

i could go on.

but then as has been pointed out earlier, the secular journals have a similar requirement to that of AIG's or ICR's but you do not hear the TE's or other evolutionists complaining it is unfair or whatever they charge the creationists with.

in fact, when it was pointed out earlier, they fell silent on the issue and did not address it again. why is that? obviously, if one wants to be seen as consistant and honest, they would remove that requirement and study all of science, rejecting whatis not true and keeping what is true.

as it stands, their complaints are all hypocrisy and their journals are pursuing a pre-determined conclusion--- evolution. they are not seeking the truth nor are they being objective.
 
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The Lady Kate

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this kind of claim that is being made:



is typical for everyone knows that the journal cannot provide bias as a reason for rejection. why?

1. it would give creationists legitimacy for their complaints; 2. it would be deemed discrimination and open the journal to lawsuits, and other charges; 3. it would undermine the credibility of the journal; 4. it would show that secular science is not honest.

5. it's not true.

but then as has been pointed out earlier, the secular journals have a similar requirement to that of AIG's or ICR's but you do not hear the TE's or other evolutionists complaining it is unfair or whatever they charge the creationists with.

I just got here, so I missed that point... can you tell me where it was?
 
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The Lady Kate

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prove it. anyone can make that statement. you have to have a legitmate reason to reject something and bias is not legitimate but close-minded.

Ahem... "The Universe and everything in it was created by God last Thursday with the appearance of age, the appearance of history, and the appearance of memories in the minds of every person on Earth."

Anyone can make the above statement too. And any competent peer-reviewed scientific journal would pass it around the office, pointing and laughing accordingly, before uncerimoniously round-filing it.

If you can understand why, then there's your proof.
 
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Willtor

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this kind of claim that is being made:



is typical for everyone knows that the journal cannot provide bias as a reason for rejection. why?

1. it would give creationists legitimacy for their complaints; 2. it would be deemed discrimination and open the journal to lawsuits, and other charges; 3. it would undermine the credibility of the journal; 4. it would show that secular science is not honest.

i could go on.

but then as has been pointed out earlier, the secular journals have a similar requirement to that of AIG's or ICR's but you do not hear the TE's or other evolutionists complaining it is unfair or whatever they charge the creationists with.

in fact, when it was pointed out earlier, they fell silent on the issue and did not address it again. why is that? obviously, if one wants to be seen as consistant and honest, they would remove that requirement and study all of science, rejecting whatis not true and keeping what is true.

as it stands, their complaints are all hypocrisy and their journals are pursuing a pre-determined conclusion--- evolution. they are not seeking the truth nor are they being objective.

The rejection letter doesn't have to say, "we're biased." But if it points to relevant contrary research that hasn't been addressed, the author(s) of the paper are expected to respond to that research. If the journal can point to such things, it isn't bias, it's constructive criticism. It's the same sort of criticism that any paper (even those that eventually do get published) recieves.

What most of those here who have published papers are hearing from you (I know this is not what you mean to be communicating, but from the last paragraph, I hope you can see why this is how your points come across) is that the creationists should get a free pass to publish their papers where the evolutionists have to do real research and recieve criticism on their papers before they get published; and anything less is bias on the part of the journals.
 
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archaeologist

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What most of those here who have published papers are hearing from you (I know this is not what you mean to be communicating, but from the last paragraph, I hope you can see why this is how your points come across) is that the creationists should get a free pass to publish their papers where the evolutionists have to do real research and recieve criticism on their papers before they get published; and anything less is bias on the part of the journals.

well you're right. i am not saying that and for a very good reason. it is not for the reason that secular science has declared creation science a non-science; i do not believe secular science has the authority or the right to declare what is or isn't science or the correct scientific method.

i do not think the two are compatible and neither belongs in the other's systems. they have different goals, motivations, ideas, one is not of God while the other is closer to Him, and so on.

creation scientists should not be submiting articles to secular journals and vice versa for peer review for the peers are different also. the believer cannot walk in the counselof the ungodly thus accepting advice or corrections from secular scientists is walking a fine line.

BUT that still doesn't give those who practice secular science the right to criticize AIG or ICR for their peer review criteria for the reason pointed out earlier; the secular system applies the same rules, just different words and target omissions.

the secular world wants everything to run by their rules and on their playing field, well that just isn't going to work. God does not do things the way the secular world thinks and to use their ways and methods means missing out on what God did.

for lady kate;

randome guy said this:

The tenets of science is the scientific method. Ignore no evidence, have only natural explanations, etc... It's science. Are you telling me that anyone can have their own definition of science and it's valid?

i said:

there you have it,i highlighted the words that make the secular journals just like ICR's criteria and makes the original post a hypocritical complaint.

i would say that those who complain about ICR's regulation, that it be creationist ,is not science have no leg to stand on as they themselves do not practice science as defined by their own people.

also, that highlighted phrase proves my point that the seculae journals omit data and shows why they will never get the answers they seek nor find the truth using their own way.

creation was a spiritual, supernatural act and there is no way given the above regulation that secular science can fathom what took place nor present the truth.

secular science has set up the rules so that what is to be accepted will only fit their framework, no christian should be a part of that for it is a tilted playing field in favor of the secular world and does not allow people to find the truth.

The rejection letter doesn't have to say, "we're biased." But if it points to relevant contrary research that hasn't been addressed, the author(s) of the paper are expected to respond to that research. If the journal can point to such things, it isn't bias, it's constructive criticism

so you like to think. a lot of rejections are based upon bias, they just have different words to use to make it seem legitmate. don't get me wrong, it is practiced in all fields, even christian ones.

a good one is; ' this is a good paper but it just doesn't fit our publishing needs' (or direction etc.)

translation: " there is no way in **** that we are going to publish something contrary to our beliefs." or something to that effect. use your imagination.
 
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Deamiter

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so you like to think. a lot of rejections are based upon bias, they just have different words to use to make it seem legitmate. don't get me wrong, it is practiced in all fields, even christian ones.

a good one is; ' this is a good paper but it just doesn't fit our publishing needs' (or direction etc.)

translation: " there is no way in **** that we are going to publish something contrary to our beliefs." or something to that effect. use your imagination.
Oh there you go, making claims without presenting a SINGLE credible source to back it up! Can you present a single rejection letter and show why it was bias or are you just making this stuff up.

Speaking of making stuff up, you have STILL not defined "secular science." Do you have a credible source for that phrase or are you making that up too?
 
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archaeologist

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Oh there you go, making claims without presenting a SINGLE credible source to back it up! Can you present a single rejection letter and show why it was bias or are you just making this stuff up.

Speaking of making stuff up,

i am not making these things up but it is nice to see such an imflammatory post.

you have STILL not defined "secular science."

i have done it twice and have remarked that busterdog's was a good one as well. you must have missed them.

Do you have a credible source for that phrase or are you making that up too?

not even worth responding to.
 
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Deamiter

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i am not making these things up but it is nice to see such an imflammatory post.
Oh come now, you love to point out when people have failed to evidence their claims. Now I point out that you've done the same thing and it's suddenly "inflammatory?" Meh, there's not even a SPARK in that post!
i have done it twice and have remarked that busterdog's was a good one as well. you must have missed them.
Of course when you're making up definitions, you need to make sure the people you're talking to can find that definition. I looked up "secular science" on Google and found a paid-only brittanica article and some site on atheists.about.com -- a site I know you'd reject as not "credible." You simply can't expect every member here to follow every post you make so when you make up words and phrases, you need to expect that people are going to be confused when you use your own made-up language.
not even worth responding to.
Hmm, you claim that there's a massive conspiracy to keep creationism out of journals and when asked for evidence you say, "not even worth responding to." I think your post speaks for itself there.
 
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Willtor

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so you like to think. a lot of rejections are based upon bias, they just have different words to use to make it seem legitmate. don't get me wrong, it is practiced in all fields, even christian ones.

a good one is; ' this is a good paper but it just doesn't fit our publishing needs' (or direction etc.)

translation: " there is no way in **** that we are going to publish something contrary to our beliefs." or something to that effect. use your imagination.

Would you post a link to one of these?
 
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archaeologist

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He already said he can't because they'll just reject anything a Creationist writes. A persecution complex seems like a very common theme in Creationism

Would you post a link to one of these

you claim that there's a massive conspiracy to keep creationism out of journals and when asked for evidence you say, "not even worth responding to." I think your post speaks for itself there.

it is so nice of you to focus on the unimportant, the information that is common knowledge and soon but fail to address what is important:

well you're right. i am not saying that and for a very good reason. it is not for the reason that secular science has declared creation science a non-science; i do not believe secular science has the authority or the right to declare what is or isn't science or the correct scientific method.

i do not think the two are compatible and neither belongs in the other's systems. they have different goals, motivations, ideas, one is not of God while the other is closer to Him, and so on.

creation scientists should not be submiting articles to secular journals and vice versa for peer review for the peers are different also. the believer cannot walk in the counselof the ungodly thus accepting advice or corrections from secular scientists is walking a fine line.

BUT that still doesn't give those who practice secular science the right to criticize AIG or ICR for their peer review criteria for the reason pointed out earlier; the secular system applies the same rules, just different words and target omissions.

the secular world wants everything to run by their rules and on their playing field, well that just isn't going to work. God does not do things the way the secular world thinks and to use their ways and methods means missing out on what God

or this:

randome guy said this:


Quote:
The tenets of science is the scientific method. Ignore no evidence, have only natural explanations, etc... It's science. Are you telling me that anyone can have their own definition of science and it's valid?
i said:


Quote:
there you have it,i highlighted the words that make the secular journals just like ICR's criteria and makes the original post a hypocritical complaint.

i would say that those who complain about ICR's regulation, that it be creationist ,is not science have no leg to stand on as they themselves do not practice science as defined by their own people.

also, that highlighted phrase proves my point that the seculae journals omit data and shows why they will never get the answers they seek nor find the truth using their own way.

creation was a spiritual, supernatural act and there is no way given the above regulation that secular science can fathom what took place nor present the truth.
secular science has set up the rules so that what is to be accepted will only fit their framework, no christian should be a part of that for it is a tilted playing field in favor of the secular world and does not allow people to find the truth.

but that is typical, avoid the real issues and build a mountain out of soemthing minor.
 
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random_guy

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...secular science...

Please point out what "non-secular science" and what advances "non-secular science" has done. Remember, research by Creationists using the scientific method is still "secular science". Please point out scientific theories that includes supernatural effects.
 
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archaeologist

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Please point out what "non-secular science" and what advances "non-secular science" has done. Remember, research by Creationists using the scientific method is still "secular science". Please point out scientific theories that includes supernatural effects.

still trying to find ways to avoid the issue.

http://www.creationism.org/articles/index.htm

haven't read them but you will notice that many supernatural effects entail, understanding, wisdom and other such attributes.
 
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random_guy

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still trying to find ways to avoid the issue.

http://www.creationism.org/articles/index.htm

haven't read them but you will notice that many supernatural effects entail, understanding, wisdom and other such attributes.

Yeah, but what good has it done and what theories have been applied. I'll give you what secular science has done:

www.pubmed.org

All those articles on that site follow the scientific method. Here's another one:

www.nature.com

Again, all through secular science. Type in malaria, cancer, etc... and you'll find thousands of articles on how science is helping to create new treatments for these diseases and many others. Let's see what non-secular science can do.
 
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