Questions for SDA?

[TrustAndObey]

Hi Lainie,

Christ the man died on the cross, Christ the divine no.

Did you see my reply to your post earlier in this thread? Let me know what you think.

(I didn't see your earlier post, I'm sorry, I'll go back and look for it after I finish this post).

Then how did Jesus conquer death?

Death is the last enemy to be destroyed so as of right now, it really is still our enemy.

The only thing to look forward to about death is that when it happens, our very next conscious thought will be seeing our Savior. We will be "changed" and receive our immortality at that point. We will no longer be man either.

I don't think my view differs that much at all from what other people are saying, although it may sound that way sometimes. It's hard to put into words how I feel exactly (except to give scripture), and I haven't been able to discuss this before on CF...so I'm learning how I word things as I go.

I do believe in a trinity. One God.

So I guess I'm not sure what the ruckus is about. I discussed this in detail with my pastor before I was baptized and he and I agreed that I was right in line with the fundamental belief.

 

[OntheDL]

No no, I agree with you! I was wondering where you got the idea that Jesus is the Father. I've never heard of this.

I thought the very very traditional SDA was still semi-arian (ie, no trinity, only God the Father, Jesus created).

Jon

Some pioneer adventists namely James White, Joseph Bates, J. H. Waggoner...were strong anti-Trinitarian's because their former religious background.

When The Desire of Ages was published in 1898, the trinitarian statements concerning Christ shook many of the pioneers and forced them to refocus on the scriptures.

Still seeking to give a true direction to her faith, Jesus declared, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life." 1 John 5:12. The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life. "He that believeth in Me," said Jesus, "though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?" Christ here looks forward to the time of His second coming. Then the righteous dead shall be raised incorruptible, and the living righteous shall be translated to heaven without seeing death. The miracle which Christ was about to perform, in raising Lazarus from the dead, would represent the resurrection of all the righteous dead. By His word and His works He declared Himself the Author of the resurrection. He who Himself was soon to die upon the cross stood with the keys of death, a conqueror of the grave, and asserted His right and power to give eternal life. {DA 530.3}

ML Andreasen later recalled that he was astonished by sister White's statements in DA and went to see her in person to make sure they weren't misprints.

 

[OntheDL]

(I didn't see your earlier post, I'm sorry, I'll go back and look for it after I finish this post).

Then how did Jesus conquer death?

Death is the last enemy to be destroyed so as of right now, it really is still our enemy.

The only thing to look forward to about death is that when it happens, our very next conscious thought will be seeing our Savior. We will be "changed" and receive our immortality at that point. We will no longer be man either.

I don't think my view differs that much at all from what other people are saying, although it may sound that way sometimes. It's hard to put into words how I feel exactly (except to give scripture), and I haven't been able to discuss this before on CF...so I'm learning how I word things as I go.

I do believe in a trinity. One God.

So I guess I'm not sure what the ruckus is about. I discussed this in detail with my pastor before I was baptized and he and I agreed that I was right in line with the fundamental belief.

Lainie,

Look at Jesus's statements:

John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. ...

I think this clearly shows that Christ the Divine did not die with His humanity.

God always had victory over death. Christ resurrected many people before His own death.

"...At His birth the star had known Christ, and had guided the wise men to the manger where He lay. The heavenly hosts had known Him, and had sung His praise over the plains of Bethlehem. The sea had known His voice, and had obeyed His command. Disease and death had recognized His authority, and had yielded to Him their prey. The sun had known Him, and at the sight of His dying anguish, had hidden its face of light. The rocks had known Him, and had shivered into fragments at His cry. Inanimate nature had known Christ, and had borne witness to His divinity..." DA p771

His death ratified the Covenant of Grace thus forever defeated sin and death.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Lainie,

Look at Jesus's statements:

John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. ...

I think this clearly shows that Christ the Divine did not die with His humanity.

God always had victory over death. Christ resurrected many people before His own death.

"...At His birth the star had known Christ, and had guided the wise men to the manger where He lay. The heavenly hosts had known Him, and had sung His praise over the plains of Bethlehem. The sea had known His voice, and had obeyed His command. Disease and death had recognized His authority, and had yielded to Him their prey. The sun had known Him, and at the sight of His dying anguish, had hidden its face of light. The rocks had known Him, and had shivered into fragments at His cry. Inanimate nature had known Christ, and had borne witness to His divinity..." DA p771

His death ratified the Covenant of Grace thus forever defeated sin and death.

Didn't Paul resurrect people too? He wasn't Divine or immortal.

And OTD, I don't necessarily disagree with you, and I really enjoy talking about this without the personal attacks (so maybe we should take this to the Traditional section), but I don't think that we can say that sin and death have forever been defeated if people still sin and die.

Through Christ we will not see the second death, but I know for a fact that good Christian people continue to die daily.

Through Christ we can be forgiven of sin, but I'm not sure in what context you mean that sin was defeated forever? Can you clarify that for me?

 

[JonMiller]

God is not constrained by time as we are.

Then is when we are freed from death and sin. Even though we live now, and will live forever in the future.

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

Then is when we are freed from death and sin. Even though we live now, and will live forever in the future.

Okay, but there's a whole lotta death in between.

The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Satan gets annihiliated (for lack of a better word)...and that hasn't happened yet.

 

[TrustAndObey]

1 Corinthians 15:26 (I THINK...I'm so rusty)...The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Look at that verse in context. Well wait, let me go make sure that's the right verse first.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Hey, what'dya know. I was right!

 

[TrustAndObey]

Okay, I knew I wasn't crazy (just rusty). Acts 20:9-11.

Paul resurrected someone.

 

[JonMiller]

Paul did not. God did, through Paul.

JM
(some OT prophets were the tools used as well)

 

[TrustAndObey]

Paul did not. God did, through Paul.

JM
(some OT prophets were the tools used as well)

Then couldn't the same argument be made about Christ? (not that I'm making it, but hey.....)

Maco brought up a really good point the other night (that's right, Maco, my evil pseudo step-brother bully ).....if Jesus is the Father....how is it that Jesus doesn't know when He'll return and stated only His Father knows?

 

[TrustAndObey]

Christ said *I* am the resurrection and the light.

It's also stated in scripture that Jesus is Lord of the living and the dead...yet other verses say that God is not the God of the dead.

I'll go look those up. I'm not going to rely on memory for those for sure.

 

[JonMiller]

Pay less attention to specific verses and more attention to the stories.

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Contrasted to:

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

 

[TrustAndObey]

JM, when I read the bible (twice now) that's exactly what I did, I paid attention to the OVERALL messages.

I'm still really unclear on some things, but I got the overall message that Jesus had different duties/roles than God the Father.

Verses like what I quoted are EXACTLY why I came to that conclusion.

They have the same purpose though, I totally agree with that.

 

[JonMiller]

Christ's ressurection was very different from the ressurrections before His (and those after). If He was ressurected by God the Father, would he need to ascend and visit Him? No, His ressurrection was because He had conqured sin and death, and all other ressurrections from death are allowed because of it.

The angel did not resurrect Him on the third day, rather, it just called Him forth from the tomb.

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

Also JM, Matthew 24...isn't the overall message there that there will be "signs" of Christ's second coming, but ultimately even He doesn't know exactly when He'll return?

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

How can they be One and the same if One knows something the Other doesn't?

 

[JonMiller]

Also JM, Matthew 24...isn't the overall message there that there will be "signs" of Christ's second coming, but ultimately even He doesn't know exactly when He'll return?

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

How can they be One and the same if One knows something the Other doesn't?

While Christ was on this earth, in the form of a man, He was sepperated from God.

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

He was separated from God?

How do you mean?

 

[JonMiller]

By the weight of sin that He was carrying. See the story of the Garden for it presented mostly clearly, but it is clear that there was still division (brought about by taking on humanity) earlier. A human body born of a human is much more limited then what we will have in heaven.

JM