Questions for SDA?

[brimac]

Do you guys mind if I, a non SDA, but fellow conditionalist ask some questions?

 

[tall73]

Feel free.

 

[brimac]

Feel free.

I have studied the beliefs of the SDA for my whole life, I actually took a course on "cults" in seminary, in which SDA was pegged as a cult. Even in seminary though I did not agree with all that I was taught that SDA believes, I did not believe that SDA was a cult. Still, I have had very few chances to sit down and speak with an SDA about their beliefs. Would you guys mind listing your beliefs for me, I dont want a doctrinal statement, they are too neat, I just want a list of what you believe which you know to be different from the mainstream. I am not asking this in order to trap anyone. I am actually asking this because my beliefs are closer to SDA than any other denom, and yet I have several questions!

 

[Adventist Dissident]

would love to here some of your questions.

FYI there are "offical" postions and "unoffical"

 

[brimac]

would love to here some of your questions.

FYI there are "offical" postions and "unoffical"

1) Was Ellen White viewed as a prophet of a teacher?
2) I agree that Saturday is the Sabbath, but how important is that?
3) How do you feel about the military?
4) How do you feel about the trinity?
5) How do you feel about the miraculous gits(ex:speaking in tongues)?

 

[JonMiller]

Many members of the SDA church I attend serve in the military. In the 40s it was somewhat of a negative thing, and many adventists served as concientious objectors, but now I don't know many who feel similarly. Actually, I believe we had a split during WW1 because some members thought it was wrong to fight at all, and others thought it was OK.

There, I answered the easy one. The other 3-4 are at times points of debate among adventists today, and positions are complicated and varried.

JM

 

[smooze]

Elen White and speaking from alot of experience was "enlightened" There are alot of documentation by her. Opinions vary but all her teachings were manifested from her visions. Well How important well the whole Seventh Day ADvent is based on SAturday SAbbath worship ( naming the whol shabang after it well yah. Military is the same on most visual plains "thou shalt not kill and so forth" Unfortunately if we had no military then hostile nations would be free to rampage whenever they felt inclined. I believe the Trinity is observed by adventists and SDA's also believe that the Arch-angel Micheal and JESUS CHRIST are 1 in the same. ARCH meaning ruling over all the others ( Jesus said to look for HIS coming on the clouds trumpets blazing leading HIS angels. AS far as I know Ive never encountered anyone speaking in tongues. It was an event in the bible I know but everyone heard the message so I believe tongues meant other languages NOT the gibberish yuo hear from people rolling around and talking some marble-mouthed weirdmess. Sorry that is not an SDA sentiment but a personal 1. NO ive never heard of any SDA talking gibberish Nope.

 

[djconklin]

1st: welcome to our forum! One question for you: which seminary? I went to the seminary at Andrews University in Berrien Spirngs, MI.

1) Was Ellen White viewed as a prophet of a teacher?

I assume you meant "or." But, in any case, she flat out denied ever calling herself a "prophet" because back then, as now, there are people who have this simplistic and naive concept of a prophet as being one who sits around all day being verbally inspired by God to make prophecies of the future. As you know from your study of the prophets in the OT they didn very little foretelling and a lot of warning to their present generation. King David is called a prophet but he didn't make too many prophecies.

2) I agree that Saturday is the Sabbath, but how important is that?

On the one hand it is as important as any of the other 10C. The written laws of God define when we have ceased to "love God with all your heart, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself." The reason it takes preminence now, and even more so in the future, is because this is the only command that seperates the Christians of the Bible from the secular christians (think of the politicians who claimed to be Christians and standing tall for Christian family values while all the while violating the 8th commandment.) The Sabbath is a neat commandment on a number of points. One, because one rests--hence there is no work involved! One cannot do anything to earn righteousness. Two, the Sabbath rest is a symbol of our rest in Christ--again no work, just faith. There, the Sabbath as a memorial to God's creative power in the week of creation is a reminder (the commandment starts with the word "Remember") that is is God who makes us holy just as He made the day holy.

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

3) How do you feel about the military?

Do you mean can we kill? Let's flip it around: since all mankind is made in the image of God is your job as a Christian to kill them or save them?

4) How do you feel about the trinity?

Although the word itself, like monogamy, doesn't occur in Scripture the priniciple has solid biblical backing. From our (http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html) Fundamental teachings are:

2. Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

5) How do you feel about the miraculous gits(ex:speaking in tongues)?

Again, solid biblical foundation. Partly fulfilled on Pentecost and will be even more so the nearer we get to that day of His soon appearing!

 

[Adventist Dissident]

here is the offical statement from the SDA Church on the role of spiritual gifts and the role of EGW

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)


So no matter people say about what she said about her self the SDA church views her as a prophet.

 

[TrustAndObey]

1) Was Ellen White viewed as a prophet or a teacher?
2) I agree that Saturday is the Sabbath, but how important is that?
3) How do you feel about the military?
4) How do you feel about the trinity?
5) How do you feel about the miraculous gits(ex:speaking in tongues)?

Hi brimac, and welcome to our forum!

I'm a Traditional Adventist, so the answers I give won't necessarily agree with what others on here might give.

1) That's a very good question (all of yours questions are good actually). She didn't call herself a prophetess and she left instruction for us to know our bibles inside and out before we ever quoted her--which makes really good sense to me considering you have to know scripture in order to test a prophet.

I've had very limited experience with Ellen White. What I mean is, I have yet to read one of her books. It is my personal conviction to know scripture first, and test her later.

2) It's as important as not murdering or not committing adultery. Scripture says to break one commandment is to break them all. Obedience is how we show God that we love Him back (1 John 5:2).

3) It used to be that we did not condone anyone volunteering for the military. I guess that has changed? Or maybe people within the Adventist church have changed their own views, but for myself and my sons, I will not allow them to join the military. If they are forced to, I will strongly urge them to become Conscientious Objectors.

4) Here's where I differ a little from a lot of my Traditional brothers and sisters, but not to the extent that I don't believe in the fundamental belief of our church. I do not believe that Jesus Christ was the Father. Even Jesus had to obey the Father and although I agree that they are "one", I believe it is in the same context as a husband and wife are one. I can elaborate further if you'd like.

5) I believe the gifts are still being given to this very day. I see the gift of charity and love all the time. I do agree with Jonathan, however, that the gift of tongues is not what you see on television or in some churches. I believe it is the Divine gift where known language differences cannot hinder discussion of our Lord. I hope that made sense (let me know if it didn't)!

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Here is the statement on Sabbath from the SDA church

20. Sabbath:
The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)

 

[DarkGreenMind]

Hello,
I am not a member of the Seventh-Day Adventist church, but I have attended this church for many years (since I was a child) and studied their doctrines in detail. I think that I understand their beliefs very well. So I can answer your questions (at least most of them).

1. Ellem White was viewed as a prophet. There is a modern tendency to view her as a "religious writer" and a "human being like us", but the traditional view is that she was a prophet of God. The most "fundamentalist" view among SDAs is that all her writings were inspired by God.

But it is a historical fact that NONE of the fundamental beliefs of the church (except vegetariansm) was introduced by Ellen White.

2. Adventists accepted Saturday as the Biblical Sabbath by the influence of Seventh-Day Baptists in the middle of the 19th century. The SDA church believe that the Saturday vs. Sunday dilemma will have a salvational significance in the last days before the Second coming of Christ; Sunday is taught to be the "mark of the beast" (predicted in the book of Revelation), while Saturday as an eternal symbol of God's creative act and authority is His mark of salvation. Those who receive the mark of the beast (Sunday observance) will be lost forever. This teaching is considered by both SDAs and their critics as an unique doctrine of the 7th-day Adventists church, but I have read that this teaching was held first by some English sabbatarians in the 17th century.

3. Military service issues caused a split in the Adventist church during World War I. The church had declared (during the Civil War in USA) that its member should not participate in any war or military conflict because this would lead to the breaking of at least two commandements (breaking the sabbath and murder). But many adventists participated in World War I. Many of those who refused military service were excommunicated by their national churches and were persecuted in their countries. After the war they wanted their position to be declared the right one by the church leaders. This contoversy caused a divison and the birth of a new denomination (SDA Reform Movement). Today 7th-day adventists are generally opposed to war and the military, but it is all left to a personal decision.

4. The official statement on God of the SDA church is somewhat obscure, but it includes the Trinity and the Trinity doctrine is taught today in the church and regarded as an important Biblical teaching. But the SDA trinity is not exactly the same as the traditional othodox Trinity doctrine. The SDA trinity teaching says that God is composed by three distinct "Divine Beings". The present church teaching is that the Son was NOT generated by the Father (!) which is contrary to both orthodox trinitarianism and the original Adventists position. The church today teaches that the "2nd Divine Being" accepted "the role of a son" in the plan of salvation and is not essentially a Son in his original divine essence.

The Belief #2 ("the Godhead") in the Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists reads:

"There is one God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons."

The SDA church accepted the Trinity doctrine in 1931. But the original position of the Seventth-day adventist church was clearly ANTI-TRINITARIAN for more than 50 years. The original belief was that God is one person - the Father, and Christ is His divine Son (but not God Almighty !), begotten (not created) by the Father in the beginning of time, "almost from eternity", but not "eternally begotten". The Holy Spirit was not considered a distinct person, but a creative power, influence or agency. Several adventist pioneers, including Ellen White's husband James White (he was one of the founders and the leaders of the church), wrote articles against the Trinity doctrine. Ellen White herslef wrote that "Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty." But later in her writings she spoke of a "divine trio".

Today's SDA Godhead doctrine describes God as a group of independent individuals. It is very close to tritheism, unfortunately.

After years of scriptural, historical and theological studies on the Trinity question I realized that I can't accept this doctrine, neither the orthodox Trinity, nor the present SDA tritheistic version. That's why I am not a member of that church. I am still looking for the true church or at least a true church.

 

[djconklin]

here {sic} is the offical statement from the SDA Church on the role of spiritual gifts and the role of EGW

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

So {sic} no matter people say about what she said about her self {sic} the SDA church views her as a prophet.

Note that the conclusion isn't warranted by the evidence the poster just gave.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Note that the conclusion isn't warranted by the evidence the poster just gave.

That is the game you will see among many of the traditional SDA's on this forum. Lord's messenger is the same as a prophet and EGW has been viewed as a prophet by the SDA church from its inception. The Adventist church has a number of references to Ellen White's writings such as "the Spirit of Prophecy" "Present Truth" "Straight Testimony" and the often heard in sermons version "the pen of inspiration".

Dj is likely being defensive because he knows that within the SDA church there is a movement to redefine EGW in a more pastorial way rather then the prophet of Traditional Seventh-day Adventism. This view of Ellen White is one of the big differences between the Progressive SDA and the Traditional SDA.
See the following:
Traditional and Progressive SDA's ...Truth Traditional or Progressive

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Note that the conclusion isn't warranted by the evidence the poster just gave.

notice that despite the official statement by the SDA church that the gift of prophecy is manifested in Ellen White, DJconklin still won't admit that the SDA church believes her to be a prophet.

 

[djconklin]

Lord's messenger is the same as a prophet

According to whom?

EGW has been viewed as a prophet by the SDA church from its inception.

Source please.

Dj is likely being defensive because he knows that within the SDA church there is a movement to redefine EGW in a more pastorial way rather then the prophet of Traditional Seventh-day Adventism.

Why should I be defensive about a view I hold already?

Originally Posted by djconklin
Note that the conclusion isn't warranted by the evidence the poster just gave.

notice that despite the official statement by the SDA church that the gift of prophecy is manifested in Ellen White, DJconklin still won't admit that the SDA church believes her to be a prophet.

You are assuming that having the gift of prophecy equals being a prophet. I don't make that assumption.

 

[smooze]

Hello,
I am not a member of the Seventh-Day Adventist church,

I realized that I can't accept this doctrine, neither the orthodox Trinity, nor the present SDA tritheistic version. That's why I am not a member of that church. I am still looking for the true church or at least a true church.

OK case closed arguemnt solved. Why does this have to become a fight over who EGW was and why she can't rest in peace. ALoT of people have taken the SDA message and made it into something good. I wish we could just focus our gaze back on JESUS and HIS message. SDA treat their bodies with respect and continue to use scripture and Love to reach others. All christianity has some discrepancies and flaws but we are inheritently prone to sin and thus all we can do is repent our sins and try and hold each other up. Whether only SDA doctrine baptist catholics are truly going to be saved well all we can do is believe in blind faith and obedience to GOD's law and Lets always remember LOVE comes before ANYTHING...( run on sentences are my specialty)

 

[maco]

DarkGreenMind;
After years of scriptural, historical and theological studies on the Trinity question I realized that I can't accept this doctrine, neither the orthodox Trinity, nor the present SDA tritheistic version. That's why I am not a member of that church. I am still looking for the true church or at least a true church.

Since you made this comment I can ask you this question without being stoned or excommunicated.

How do you understand the Godhead?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

A lot of this has been discussed previously see:
Ellen White Said She Was Not A Prophet-Why do people keep saying she was?

After reading the above thread over I noticed something interesting. After giving some historical information about what Stephen Haskell had said at a campmeeting where Ellen White was also a speaker:

Haskel took the position that the Sabbath is the test for the world and Mrs. White's testimonies the test for the Church. He even affirmed that they who reject the testimonies of Mrs. White cannot be saved.

Dj responded:

Note that we are not told why we should care in the least what Haskell thinks.

Of course Haskell had a lot of leadership involvement in the SDA church

S. N. Haskell was ordained to the ministry in 1870. During his years of service he was president of several conferences (including once when he was president of the California and Maine Conferences at the same time!). He also founded South Lancaster Academy (now Atlantic Union College) in 1882.
In 1885 Elder Haskell was in charge of the first group of Seventh-day Adventist missionaries who went to open the work in Australia. From 1889 to 1890 he made a round-the-world tour on behalf of Adventist missionary work. His first wife died in 1894, and in 1897 he remarried, this time to a Bible worker named Hetty Hurd. Stephen and Hetty did evangelistic and Bible work in Australia and the United States. In addition, he also authored several books including The Story of Daniel the Prophet, The Story of the Seer of Patmos, and The Cross and Its Shadow. Elder Haskell died in California in 1922.
http://www.adventistheritage.org/article.php?id=47

It stikes me as strange that even after the last fairly extensive discussion DJ comes back saying as he did above:

Quote:
Lord's messenger is the same as a prophet
According to whom?

Quote:
EGW has been viewed as a prophet by the SDA church from its inception.
Source please.

All of his questions had been answered in a different thread and in one case he did not even care what the historical SDA leader said and thought. There is an element here that seems to delight in being obscurantists and I frankly don't see any reason for it.

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

OK case closed arguemnt solved. Why does this have to become a fight over who EGW was and why she can't rest in peace. ALoT of people have taken the SDA message and made it into something good. I wish we could just focus our gaze back on JESUS and HIS message. SDA treat their bodies with respect and continue to use scripture and Love to reach others. All christianity has some discrepancies and flaws but we are inheritently prone to sin and thus all we can do is repent our sins and try and hold each other up. Whether only SDA doctrine baptist catholics are truly going to be saved well all we can do is believe in blind faith and obedience to GOD's law and Lets always remember LOVE comes before ANYTHING...( run on sentences are my specialty)

Apart from the fact I had to read it about 10 times to get my mind past the lack of punctuation ( *lol*), I agree. Someone asked what our own personal beliefs are within the Adventist church, not to debate them so that only 'one' is true.

Blessings and Love,
Sarah