Questions for SDA?

[TrustAndObey]

DJconklin asked:

1st: welcome to our forum! One question for you: which seminary? I went to the seminary at Andrews University in Berrien Spirngs, MI.


I went to Ozark Christian College in Joplin, MO.

I live right on the Missouri border (in Arkansas)...about an hour and a half from Joplin. When I was growing up, I thought of it as a "huge city". LOL

 

[brimac]

I live right on the Missouri border (in Arkansas)...about an hour and a half from Joplin. When I was growing up, I thought of it as a "huge city". LOL

Thats funny because Joplin is like 40,000 people and the town I live in has 100,000 and the one right down the road has 100,000 also!

 

[TrustAndObey]

Thats funny because Joplin is like 40,000 people and the town I live in has 100,000 and the one right down the road has 100,000 also!

Well, you have to consider that I lived in a town with a population of 1,248! I was in the biggest graduating class they'd ever had (at the time) and there were 54 of us!

So really Joplin was pretty huge compared to THAT!

 

[brimac]

Well, you have to consider that I lived in a town with a population of 1,248! I was in the biggest graduating class they'd ever had (at the time) and there were 54 of us!

So really Joplin was pretty huge compared to THAT!

I bet! I'm tired if big towns I'm gonna move to a small one!

 

[brimac]

Exactly how do you feel about other denominations?

 

[tall73]

Ellen White was for the first fifty years (1844-1895) decidedly non-Trinitarian, especially with her clear statements that "Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty" (Lift Him Up, p.235). If she somehow "changed her mind" later, I would prefer the original doctrine of the SDA church and of Ellen White herself. It is noteworthy that her trinitarian statements occured after the death of her husband, who was clearly anti-trinitarian. I think that she was influenced by others in her "three divine beings" statements.

The expression "from the days of eternity... one with the Father" is not a trinitarian statement at all. Other Adventist writers (who opposed the Trinity) used the same language.

If the statement that "in Christ is life original, unborrowed, underived" is taken literally to mean that Christ is a self-existing being, fully independent from God the Father, it is a false statment that contradicts the Bible:

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself (John 5:26)

The life Christ has, was given to him by his Father, who is also his God. This means that Christ was not self-existing as God the Father is. ...

There already had been such a "progression" in the history of Christianity - from proper monotheism to the Trinity doctrine in the 4th century. I don't beleieve in such a "progression".

There are many statemants in Ellen White writings that contradict the Trinity doctrine (both orthodox trinity and the modern SDA version).

Here are statements that contradict the concept of a tripersonal Deity.


1.There is no "3rd divine Being (Person)" and no Trinity (or "trio"):

The Comforter is not a 3rd person, but the Son of God himself:

“Cumbered with humanity Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them to go to His Father and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself, divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit as the Omnipresent.” (Manuscript Release, vol. 14, p. 23)


The only being who was one with God lived the law in humanity, descended to the lowly life of a common laborer, and toiled at the carpenter’s bench with his earthly parent. (Ellen White, The Signs of the Times, October 14, 1897 par. 3)

The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted. (Ellen White, The Youth’s Instructor, July 7, 1898)

Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father—one in nature, in character, in purpose—the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. (Ellen White, Patriarchs and Prophets, page 34)

God and Christ are one (=united) in purpose, not one in "essence" ("substance") !


2.There was no Trinity (or "trio") in creation.

Concerning the "us" statements about man's creation, Ellen White wrote the same what early Christian authors declared and what all SDA pioneers believed - that God was talking to His Son, and not God talking to two persons who are God(s) too:


And now God said to His Son, “Let us make man in our image.” (Ellen White, The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1, pages 24, 25)


3.The Father and the Son were not equal in authority.

The Son of God was next in authority to the great Lawgiver. He knew that His life alone could be sufficient to ransom fallen man. (Ellen White, Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 2, page 9, also in Lift Him Up, page 24)

His Son He had invested with authority to command the heavenly host." (E.G. White, the Story of Redemption, p.13.)


The statements above strongly contadict the Trinity doctrine.

- According to the Trinity doctrine, the Son is not the Holy Spirit; Ellen White stated that the Holy Spirit as the Comforter is Christ Himself.

- According to the Trinity doctrine there are three beings that made the plan of salvation; Ellen white declared that Christ was the only being who could enter into all the counsels and puroposes of God.

- According to the Trinity doctrine the Father and the Son are fully "co-equal" in power and authority; Ellen White stated the opposite, that the Son was second in authority and that God the Father invested him with this authority.

So it seems that Ellen White's writings contain clearly self-contradictory statements on the Deity question. Here we have a dilemma. But there is no need to accept the later position and to reject the original one, since the founders of the SDA church were all anti-trinitarians. The original position of the church on the Godhead (as well as its christology) was more consistent and was among the distinctive doctrines that made Adventism closer to original Christianity and clean of the central Catholic dogmas, borrowed in Protestantism.

Trinitarian dogma requires such a christology that makes Christ's temptations, suffering, death and resurrection only apparent but not actual - God could not be tempted, could not suffer physical pain, could not die. This affects the whole doctrine of salvation.

The original SDA position about God and Christ is more consistent, it is in complete harmony with the other doctrines of the church (soul's mortality, importance of obedience to God's law, Christ role as a Mediator in heaven).



​

Howdy.

This is just a heads-up, as you might not be aware, but our current rules (temporary during the transition) do not allow non-Adventists to debate or teach in the Adventist section. Please check this sticky:

http://www.christianforums.com/t5751456-temporary-sda-forum-rules-now-effective.html

The new rules will likely include a debate section where you can give your views, but that will take a while to go into place as all of the new rules have to be voted on by the Adventist members.

I am reading over your post just for the info, but don't want you to get into trouble.

 

[JonMiller]

Exactly how do you feel about other denominations?

Many/most very freindly and sometimes even involved with other denominations. There are a few who feel that the SDA church is the remnant though... and feel the other denominations are lost.

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

I believe God's people are in every denomination. Some of my best friends aren't Adventists.

 

[maco]

Co-eternal means they can't die, ever.

My Bible says there is only one who has immortality and it's not Jesus.

My Bible tells me that Jesus died.

My Bible tells me that Jesus now has immortality which means at one point He didn't have it.

Co- eternal, Co-equal means they have the same power and authority and never once did one have less than the other, not even for a minute.

My Bible tells me that the Father is greater than the Son.

My Bible also tells me that the head of woman is man, the head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God.

My Bible even tells me that in the everlasting kingdom the Father will continue to have authority over the Son.

My Bible tells me that Jesus has no authority to give the seat to His left or to His right to any one of His disciples.

Co-eternal, Co-equal and having all knowledge tells me there was never a time when they all didn't have the same knowledge, not even once.

My Bible tells me that Jesus does not know the time of His second coming, only His Father knows.

My Bible tells me that Jesus had to grow in wisdom.

My Bible tells me that the Father taught the Son.

My Bible tells me that the one who did all the miracles through Jesus was God.

Side notes

My Bible tells me that all the fullness of God dwelt in Jesus.

My Bible also tells me that the fullness of God can dwell in us.

My Bible tells me that Jesus was one with the Father.

My Bible also tells me that Jesus' prayer is that we would be one with the Father just as He is one with the Father.

All I'm doing is quoting from the Bible so don't stone the messenger.

I believe in the Trinity so I must be stoned already....NOT

 

[TrustAndObey]

Co-eternal means they can't die, ever.

My Bible says there is only one who has immortality and it's not Jesus.

My Bible tells me that Jesus died.

My Bible tells me that Jesus now has immortality which means at one point He didn't have it.

Co- eternal, Co-equal means they have the same power and authority and never once did one have less than the other, not even for a minute.

My Bible tells me that the Father is greater than the Son.

My Bible also tells me that the head of woman is man, the head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God.

My Bible even tells me that in the everlasting kingdom the Father will continue to have authority over the Son.

My Bible tells me that Jesus has no authority to give the seat to His left or to His right to any one of His disciples.

Co-eternal, Co-equal and having all knowledge tells me there was never a time when they all didn't have the same knowledge, not even once.

My Bible tells me that Jesus does not know the time of His second coming, only His Father knows.

My Bible tells me that Jesus had to grow in wisdom.

My Bible tells me that the Father taught the Son.

My Bible tells me that the one who did all the miracles through Jesus was God.

Side notes

My Bible tells me that all the fullness of God dwelt in Jesus.

My Bible also tells me that the fullness of God can dwell in us.

My Bible tells me that Jesus was one with the Father.

My Bible also tells me that Jesus' prayer is that we would be one with the Father just as He is one with the Father.

All I'm doing is quoting from the Bible so don't stone the messenger.

I believe in the Trinity so I must be stoned already....NOT

Very good post Maco.

I believe that Jesus is co-eternal NOW but wasn't always. Our fundamental belief in no way says otherwise.

 

[brimac]

Is the belief that Sunday is the mark of the beast still the typical view and if so would that imply that those who do not keep the Saturday sabbath are condemned?

 

[sentipente]

Is the belief that Sunday is the mark of the beast still the typical view and if so would that imply that those who do not keep the Saturday sabbath are condemned?

I am sure there are some who hold to that view. Whether it is typical is another question. God's ability to "wink at" always poses trouble for views on condemnation.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Is the belief that Sunday is the mark of the beast still the typical view and if so would that imply that those who do not keep the Saturday sabbath are condemned?

I definitely think Sunday is satan's counterfeit for God's holy day of commandment.

However, I do not believe that anyone has accepted the mark of the beast, and when they do, they'll do it willingly and with full knowledge of what they're doing.

It won't be a secret chip implanted into their bodies.

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

When it comes down to staying true to God or not being able to buy or sell, I'm sure that some people will sell out under the guise of surviving...without really thinking about eternal survival.

 

[brimac]

I definitely think Sunday is satan's counterfeit for God's holy day of commandment.

However, I do not believe that anyone has accepted the mark of the beast, and when they do, they'll do it willingly and with full knowledge of what they're doing.

It won't be a secret chip implanted into their bodies.

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

When it comes down to staying true to God or not being able to buy or sell, I'm sure that some people will sell out under the guise of surviving...without really thinking about eternal survival.

tell me more!

 

[TrustAndObey]

Okay, if you insist.

Look at this verse:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I don't believe for a second that "receiveth" in that verse could refer to not KNOWING we were taking it.

And notice that we also have to worship the beast.

What I always find interesting is how people talk about tattoos on our foreheads, etc. when the verses about this say it will be IN the forehead and IN the hand.

Thoughts and deeds.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

I think it's two-fold. Completely giving in and turning away from God's law to give into satan's demands or not having a "cushy" life on earth.

Accepting a counterfeit.....knowingly.

Some people really do not feel like the Sabbath commandment still stands (which would mean food and drink were nailed to the cross too), but I believe they will know the full truth before given the choice to decide between God and Satan.

 

[Jon0388g]

Ellen White was for the first fifty years (1844-1895) decidedly non-Trinitarian, especially with her clear statements that "Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty" (Lift Him Up, p.235).

It seems as though the source you pasted that quote from did not quote the whole context of the statement, let alone the whole sentence. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

In context:

"Equal with the Father, honored and adored by the angels, in our behalf Christ humbled Himself, and came to this earth to live a life of lowliness and poverty--to be a man.........There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one...."

As she correctly says, the man Christ was not the Lord God; since His very divinity was veiled in humanity. He set aside all His Godliness, and lived as a full man. It is true that nobody can really explain the incarnation of Christ with humanity.

If she somehow "changed her mind" later, I would prefer the original doctrine of the SDA church and of Ellen White herself. It is noteworthy that her trinitarian statements occured after the death of her husband, who was clearly anti-trinitarian. I think that she was influenced by others in her "three divine beings" statements.

Please produce some actual quotes from EGW that explicitly reject the triune-nature of the Godhead. In context.

The expression "from the days of eternity... one with the Father" is not a trinitarian statement at all. Other Adventist writers (who opposed the Trinity) used the same language.

If the statement that "in Christ is life original, unborrowed, underived" is taken literally to mean that Christ is a self-existing being, fully independent from God the Father, it is a false statment that contradicts the Bible:

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself (John 5:26)

The life Christ has, was given to him by his Father, who is also his God. This means that Christ was not self-existing as God the Father is. ...

How else is the phrase "life underived" meant to be taken?

There is no contradiction. Christ the man was given life by His Father. When the foetus was conceived in Mary's womb, this life was given by the Father. When Christ the man gave up His last breath, He cried "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit".

Yet we also find at the start of John:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God......In Him was life; and the life was the light of men." John 1:1, 4

Ellen White was in full harmony with John, unless John also contradicted himself.

There already had been such a "progression" in the history of Christianity - from proper monotheism to the Trinity doctrine in the 4th century. I don't beleieve in such a "progression".

There are many statemants in Ellen White writings that contradict the Trinity doctrine (both orthodox trinity and the modern SDA version).

Here are statements that contradict the concept of a tripersonal Deity.


1.There is no "3rd divine Being (Person)" and no Trinity (or "trio"):

The Comforter is not a 3rd person, but the Son of God himself:

“Cumbered with humanity Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them to go to His Father and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself, divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit as the Omnipresent.” (Manuscript Release, vol. 14, p. 23)

I don't see how this contradicts the Trinity.

The only being who was one with God lived the law in humanity, descended to the lowly life of a common laborer, and toiled at the carpenter’s bench with his earthly parent. (Ellen White, The Signs of the Times, October 14, 1897 par. 3)

Again, don't see the problem.

The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted. (Ellen White, The Youth’s Instructor, July 7, 1898)

Jesus also said that the Holy Spirit would not "testify of Himself" - does this mean He doesn't exist?

Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father—one in nature, in character, in purpose—the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. (Ellen White, Patriarchs and Prophets, page 34)

God and Christ are one (=united) in purpose, not one in "essence" ("substance") !

It seems you missed where she stated "one in nature..."

2.There was no Trinity (or "trio") in creation.

Concerning the "us" statements about man's creation, Ellen White wrote the same what early Christian authors declared and what all SDA pioneers believed - that God was talking to His Son, and not God talking to two persons who are God(s) too:


And now God said to His Son, “Let us make man in our image.” (Ellen White, The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1, pages 24, 25)

A minor point.

3.The Father and the Son were not equal in authority.

The Son of God was next in authority to the great Lawgiver. He knew that His life alone could be sufficient to ransom fallen man. (Ellen White, Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 2, page 9, also in Lift Him Up, page 24) ​

His Son He had invested with authority to command the heavenly host." (E.G. White, the Story of Redemption, p.13.) ​

The statements above strongly contadict the Trinity doctrine. ​

​

I agree with your last point. The Godhead does not have equal authority; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in that order.

- According to the Trinity doctrine, the Son is not the Holy Spirit; Ellen White stated that the Holy Spirit as the Comforter is Christ Himself.

​

- According to the Trinity doctrine there are three beings that made the plan of salvation; Ellen white declared that Christ was the only being who could enter into all the counsels and puroposes of God.​

- According to the Trinity doctrine the Father and the Son are fully "co-equal" in power and authority; Ellen White stated the opposite, that the Son was second in authority and that God the Father invested him with this authority.​

So it seems that Ellen White's writings contain clearly self-contradictory statements on the Deity question. Here we have a dilemma. But there is no need to accept the later position and to reject the original one, since the founders of the SDA church were all anti-trinitarians. The original position of the church on the Godhead (as well as its christology) was more consistent and was among the distinctive doctrines that made Adventism closer to original Christianity and clean of the central Catholic dogmas, borrowed in Protestantism.​

Trinitarian dogma requires such a christology that makes Christ's temptations, suffering, death and resurrection only apparent but not actual - God could not be tempted, could not suffer physical pain, could not die. This affects the whole doctrine of salvation. ​

The original SDA position about God and Christ is more consistent, it is in complete harmony with the other doctrines of the church (soul's mortality, importance of obedience to God's law, Christ role as a Mediator in heaven). ​

Please tell me your opinion on these Sciptures, and EGW quotes:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19

"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever...But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:16,26

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all." 2 Corinthians 14:16

"according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure." 1 Peter 1:2

"The eternal heavenly dignitaries-God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit." (Ev 616)

"The three highest powers in heaven--the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost." (Ev 617)

"Since the divine law is as sacred as God Himself, only one equal with God could make atonement for its transgression. None but Christ could redeem fallen man from the curse of the law and bring him again into harmony with Heaven." (Patriarchs and Prophets 63-64)



Jon

 

[Jon0388g]

"The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery not clearly revealed, and you will never be able to explain it to others because the Lord has not revealed it to you. You may gather together scriptures and put your construction upon them, but the application is not correct....It is not essential for you to know and be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is....There are many mysteries which I do not seek to understand or to explain; they are too high for me, and too high for you. On some of these points, silence is golden...
Your mind is restless, and...you would make the mistake that many others have made, of thinking that you have new light, when it is only a new phase of error....You make take certain views of Scripture and, searching the Bible in the light of your ideas, may gather together a large number of texts and claim that they mean this and that, and call for anyone to prove to you that your views are incorrect....Here is your danger, of diverting minds from the real issues for this time....Now, my brother, it is truth that we want and must have, but do not introduce error as new truth." (14MR 175-180)


Jon

 

[maco]

Very good post Maco.

I believe that Jesus is co-eternal NOW but wasn't always. Our fundamental belief in no way says otherwise.

Well thank you my dear...

 

[maco]

God is three in one yet He is one not three. All three are co-eternal, in other words, they are one not three yet they are three and have always been three not one. Three separate co-eternal ones that make up one not three. Can't you guys get it? It's so easy.

I need a drink of unfermented grape juice...

 

[sentipente]

God is three in one yet He is one not three. All three are co-eternal, in other words, they are one not three yet they are three and have always been three not one. Three separate co-eternal ones that make up one not three. Can't you guys get it? It's so easy.

I need a drink of unfermented grape juice...

They can't get it because it is just an opinion. You cannot prove any of this but there is evidence to the contrary.