Is it Open Season on Us Now?

[HypnoToad]

Read ExpatChristian's thread, "How can thinking Christians challenge the anti-intellectual assault" in the main Origins area. Is this not just plain hate speech?

Just from the title, fundamentalists and creationists are "not thinking", and we are "anti-intelectual". Then in the main body, our views are "preposterous" and "vulgar". We "suspend God-given faculties". With the exception of "vulgar", this all simply states, "they're stupid".

Then, Expat gives two options:

1. Let fundamentalists/creationists influence the nation's children, so they are raised in an "intellectually imporverished" (again - code for "stupid") environment

2. Lump fundamentalists/creationists in with "Islamic fanatics".

Other than "terrorists", I'm not sure what else "Islamic fanatics" is supposed to refer to.

I don't see anything to his post other than fundamentalists/creationists are stupid and should be treated as terrorists.

Now, the thread has currently been "locked for staff review", but if anyone else sees this as offensive as I do, I would encourage you to PM the staff and voice your opinion on it.

 

[busterdog]

Xianjedi,

About two months ago, some new TEs came in to the fold.

With time, they moderated their views and became more respectful.

I think to some extent that standard TE views are similar in view to Expat, but I think they are said more nicely -- ie, we are indeed intellectually impoverished and our views are lacking in all reason, for the most part. However, some of that is interspersed with more pleasant comments and cordial conversation.

So, the harshness will probably wane to an extent, but, I do think, with some exceptions, we are regarded as next to worthless in terms of our ability to think. And many find our views inherently insulting, no matter how they are expressed.

 

[Melethiel]

Now, the thread has currently been "locked for staff review", but if anyone else sees this as offensive as I do, I would encourage you to PM the staff and voice your opinion on it.

Please don't...we're swamped enough as it is. We're trying to deal with the situation in this forum as quickly as we can, but there are several extenuating factors making things difficult. I know that sounds like a lame excuse, but please be patient.

 

[HypnoToad]

Xianjedi,

About two months ago, some new TEs came in to the fold.

With time, they moderated their views and became more respectful.

I think to some extent that standard TE views are similar in view to Expat, but I think they are said more nicely -- ie, we are indeed intellectually impoverished and our views are lacking in all reason, for the most part. However, some of that is interspersed with more pleasant comments and cordial conversation.

So, the harshness will probably wane to an extent, but, I do think, with some exceptions, we are regarded as next to worthless in terms of our ability to think.

Sure, but it's one thing to be questioned on intellectual capacity, it's another to then continue and be equated to terrorists. That, I believe, is what goes WAY over the line here.

Think about it. How did you feel when the towers came down on 9/11? How do you feel about being labeled as the same as the people who did that?

 

[HypnoToad]

Please don't...we're swamped enough as it is. We're trying to deal with the situation in this forum as quickly as we can, but there are several extenuating factors making things difficult. I know that sounds like a lame excuse, but please be patient.

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT suggesting that you guys aren't doing anything.

But whatever action is being taken, I don't know what that will be. And I know that an entire group being outraged is typically more effective than a single complaint in order to bring about an appropriate conclusion.

 

[Melethiel]

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT suggesting that you guys aren't doing anything.

But whatever action is being taken, I don't know what that will be. And I know that an entire group being outraged is typically more effective than a single complaint in order to bring about an appropriate conclusion.

In our case, it simply makes us feel overwhelmed and bombarded, particularly when more than one "party" starts complaining. We (referring to the moderating team) prefer to make our decisions independently of any lobbying, so as to reach as fair a decision as possible, without the feeling of being pressed into a hasty decision or of being cornered. An "appropriate conclusion" in your mind may not necessarily be the best conclusion.

Not suggesting that you would do that, just my 2c.

 

[HypnoToad]

We prefer to make our decisions independently of any lobbying, so as to reach as fair a decision as possible

Does "independent" then also mean regardless of how the community feels about it? Does the expression of opinion on the matter by community members equate to unfairness?

The actions of the Mod team don't exist in a vacuum.

I am not asking people to pressure you. I am not asking people to attempt to strong-arm you into any course of action (and nowhere have I suggested any specific course of action). The only thing I am advocating is for the expression of opinion.

This is not some simple post saying "you are stupid", and leaving it at that. When someone goes to the point of equating creationists to terrorists, I believe some degree of community outrage is appropriate. (And, btw, if someone tried to equate TE's to terrorists, I would hold the same position.)

without the feeling of being pressed into a hasty decision

But note that I have not said anything to the tune of "something must be done NOW".

 

[Melethiel]

I am not asking people to pressure you. I am not asking people to attempt to strong-arm you into any course of action (and nowhere have I suggested any specific course of action). The only thing I am advocating is for the expression of opinion.

But note that I have not said anything to the tune of "something must be done NOW".

I understand. But being bombarded with PMs still gives that impression, even if it was not meant that way. Look at it from our perspective - we already receive some 20-odd reports a day, in many of which the reporters demand immediate action. (I am speaking in general terms here, not necessarily anyone on this forum.)

This is not some simple post saying "you are stupid", and leaving it at that. When someone goes to the point of equating creationists to terrorists, I believe some degree of community outrage is appropriate. (And, btw, if someone tried to equate TE's to terrorists, I would hold the same position.)

Does "independent" then also mean regardless of how the community feels about it? Does the expression of opinion on the matter by community members equate to unfairness?

The actions of the Mod team don't exist in a vacuum.

That's why we rely so heavily on reports.


ETA: Let me clarify, as I feel I haven't been expressing myself very well. Anybody is always free to PM me or another member of the staff with any general concerns they may have about the way the forums are moderated. We welcome input and criticism. However, if a particular issue has already been reported, and you see some indication that staff is looking into it, further PMs may actually be counter-productive.

 

[busterdog]

Sure, but it's one thing to be questioned on intellectual capacity, it's another to then continue and be equated to terrorists. That, I believe, is what goes WAY over the line here.

Think about it. How did you feel when the towers came down on 9/11? How do you feel about being labeled as the same as the people who did that?

Well, I don't like it much.

There are number of other frivolous arguments: 1. our view of scripture makes God a liar or deceiver; 2. we are driving people away from God and the Church; and 3. we are an embarrassment to the Church.

Being satisfied on such matters is becoming less and less important. Being at peace with God is far more important than being at peace with those in the TE forum. I find that getting too involved in defending the YEC view is just turmoil with no fruit.

Sometimes it just makes me feel that I must be doing something right if people feel the need to get down on that level.

As for being "worthless", lots of TEs are cordial and do recognize our ability to address a number of issues sensibly. But, I think on the core issues, we are regarded as just plain nuts, irrational and completely ignorant of real science. I think we do a decent job of recognizing TE opinions as based in some science and a reasonable view of the world, but one that is not in accord with the text of Gen. 1 and one that refuses to entertain a minority of dissenting creation scientists. These are two very different attitudes.

 

[mark kennedy]

The situation is getting worse and the TEs are gradually getting bolder. Some of the regulars are still keeping a level head but when a thread is started calling Creationists heretics it's trolling as far as I'm concerned.

Like the OP says, it's open season and there is really nothing we can do about it. Personally I have went back to the Debate/discussion forum, at least there I am allowed to express exactly what I think of their secularist inquisitions.

Your not allowed to question whether or not someone else is a Christian despite their continued attacks on Christian doctrine. I can't help but wonder why it is tolerated.

 

[laptoppop]

Oh, and of course we're "belligerent" if we don't accept their reasoning.

I understand not questioning if a particular poster is saved. I wonder sometimes -- but lets just not go there. It is perfectly reasonable to bring up any parts of the Nicaean creed that might be "overlooked" -- because that is the standard set for these forms. Just don't question the salvation of anyone in particular -- I can live with that.

More and more I have come to realize how much of evolution, conventional geology, liberal theology, higher criticism, etc. is a lie. I am not saying that the evolutionists or geologists are liars (unlike what TEs routinely accuse creationists of), but rather that they are deceived. I believe that the father of lies has specifically crafted the lies to mislead people by providing plausible explanations that appeal to humanistic vanity and intellectual hubris -- specifically designed to weaken the authority of Scripture. Instead of investigating the fossil record in terms of a global flood, they look at it through the interpretation scheme already established. Think of how much research could be done with a different viewpoint! If 1/1000 of the scientists focused on how things fit into a different paradigm (YEC) then the research would be fantastic. Instead, we have unconformities which blend into paraconformities and everyone smiles and ignores the ramifications.

 

[mark kennedy]

I have given this considerable thought and the thing that has came to mind again and again is this is a doctrinal issue. They rail against a literal interpretation of Scripture and I am convinced for the most part apply this to the Bible as a whole.

I see no reason to belabor the issue with scientific semantics, this is a Theology forum. The ones who are actually secular humanists in sheep's clothing are easy enough to spot. All you have to do is mention miracles and they are either silent or they go into a rant. As for the rest I think it's a case by case basis that is called for.

In short, I think I have approached this topic in the worst possible way. Why waste time on science when it has been irrelevant all along. This is a doctrinal issue now, I'm pretty sure it always was.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[laptoppop]

Another forbidden topic is prophecy. God's prophets came to speak the message of God. That was their primary mission. But God wanted it made perfectly clear that He was speaking through them, that it was His message, not theirs. So time and time again, He had them speak about things they could not possibly have known. This was used to validate their message.

The same thing applies to Scripture. There are a ton of prophecies about Jesus throughout the Old Testament. God positively sealed the last possible date on the Old Testament through the Septuagint translation (you can't translate what isn't written). The authors of the Old testament were not just reporting the mythology of the day, but wrote as God desired. They brought God's monotheistic historically based message to the Hebrew people in a way that was clearly distinct from the other people.

Of course, a historical Old Testament coming from an omniscient God is not consistent with TE....

 

[archaeologist]

no it is not open season but expect such attacks as Jesus warned us that they hate us because they hate him.

we need to do what Paul instructs timothy, to sdo the workof an evangelists, though we are not that, and also : "be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. watch your life and doctrine closely, persevere in them because if you do you will save both yourself and your hearers" 1 tim. 4:15-16

 

[HypnoToad]

And today it continues.

See the threads, "If I was judging by their fruits ...," by Idiot, and, "Is God a scientist?" by Expat.

Idiot's basically says any teacher of creationism must be morally corrupt, and Expat's basically says science is God.

It would be more comforting of some of the other TE's here would speak up against this kind of garbage, but so far they stay silent.

 

[busterdog]

And today it continues.

See the threads, "If I was judging by their fruits ...," by Idiot, and, "Is God a scientist?" by Expat.

Idiot's basically says any teacher of creationism must be morally corrupt, and Expat's basically says science is God.

It would be more comforting of some of the other TE's here would speak up against this kind of garbage, but so far they stay silent.

I hear you. But, be patient. This is not your fight.

Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Isa 28:17
Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.



Isa 52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel [will be] your rereward.

 

[FallingWaters]

And today it continues.

See the threads, "If I was judging by their fruits ...," ..., and, "Is God a scientist?" ....

... basically says any teacher of creationism must be morally corrupt, and ... basically says science is God.

It would be more comforting of some of the other TE's here would speak up against this kind of garbage, but so far they stay silent.

I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to mention names when criticizing an idea.
It's okay to criticize the idea, but not the person for expressing the idea.
You might want to edit your post before someone reports it.

 

[FallingWaters]

Another forbidden topic is prophecy. God's prophets came to speak the message of God. That was their primary mission. But God wanted it made perfectly clear that He was speaking through them, that it was His message, not theirs. So time and time again, He had them speak about things they could not possibly have known. This was used to validate their message.

The same thing applies to Scripture. There are a ton of prophecies about Jesus throughout the Old Testament. God positively sealed the last possible date on the Old Testament through the Septuagint translation (you can't translate what isn't written). The authors of the Old testament were not just reporting the mythology of the day, but wrote as God desired. They brought God's monotheistic historically based message to the Hebrew people in a way that was clearly distinct from the other people.

Of course, a historical Old Testament coming from an omniscient God is not consistent with TE....

Amen.

One of the things I believe God "told" me about the Creation account was this:
if God could tell His prophets what was going to happen in the future,
then He could also have told His prophets what already happened in the past.

 

[HypnoToad]

I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to mention names when criticizing an idea.
It's okay to criticize the idea, but not the person for expressing the idea.
You might want to edit your post before someone reports it.

I'd like to see the rule I broke. I've read through them and don't see it. Further, my post doesn't criticize the person. I give the thread title, who started it, gave a brief summation of each, and said the posts (not the people) were garbage.

 

[laptoppop]

I don't think the post breaks any rules either -- but its good to be sensitive to these things. I don't want to "win the argument" and offend the person such that they can't hear what I say.

There have been many times in these forums where I've responded to flaming criticisms of YECs and ended up having reasonable discussions. I think we always need to be careful when we talk about the characteristics of an entire group. For example, AFAIK, most TEs are liberal in their theology -- but not all. In fact, I have some of the most hope for folks that hold to conservative theology but also try to hold TE. The illogic of that position creates a tension that can be helpful to help someone change their viewpoint. Of course, the best thing is to pray for the folks -- even the obnoxious ones.