Why I believe Creation

[FenderElctrc]

1 Corinthians 4:6-7:
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

The Apostles taught us so that we would not have to go beyond what is written. I choose Creation because the Apostles often referred back to Adam and Eve as real people. For example:

Romans 5:14:
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

I also choose it because of this:

2 Peter 3:14-18:
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

I didn't make this post with hate in my heart or pride. I didn't make this to tear anyone down. I just made it to explain why I choose Creation. cool.

 

[dana3262]

1 Corinthians 4:6-7:
6....... that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written............

This is the only thing i don't agree with because everyone must think for themselves!

We must think beyond what is written always, it only strengthens my belief in what is written once i think about everything that is not.
If people didn't think beyond whats written we'd be living in the dark ages.
One can be a thinker and a Christian......i am one for example.

I believe in Genesis creation as well,i just haven't decided if i believe it literally or metaphorically.

 

[crawfish]

The Apostles taught us so that we would not have to go beyond what is written.

I appreciate the tone in which your post was written, and I do understand your point. However, I would argue we HAVE to go beyond what is written because the world changes so much. Issues like TV, movies, the internet, genetic engineering, cloning and the like are things far unlike anything the Apostles had to deal with; it is our job to take their teachings and extend them into new areas. We're not redefining scripture, per se, but we are reapplying it in ways that the original author did not foresee.

In the same way as those issues, we must deal with scientific discovery as well. Before man knew that the earth spun, a believer might say "the sun rises and sets, moving in the sky around the earth", because the bible implies that. We now know that is wrong; the bible was speaking in a figurative sense. It does not affect our faith one whit.

To believe in God, one assumes that either a) God told us everything from the beginning and time will only prove it, or b) God had His word written in a way where the meaning would stay consistent through time despite the progressive growth of knowledge. I understand why many people choose. a. I choose b, and it is a matter of faith and humility that I do so.

 

[Tinker Grey]

The Apostles taught us so that we would not have to go beyond what is written. I choose Creation because the Apostles often referred back to Adam and Eve as real people. For example:

Romans 5:14:Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

I would like to know how someone can determine that the author believes that a person the author references is real.

If I write "Iago was evil incarnate" or "Titus' fatal flaw was an attachment to duty without balance"? Can you tell if I think those people are real or not? If Dr. Loh's server somehow remains intact for 300 years and someone can decipher the disks, should we suppose that the reader will know whether this example reference real people or not (particularly if the source works are lost)? And even if the source works are not lost, can the reader determine what I believe about them?

This assertion shows up quite often and it strikes me as very weak.

 

[PaladinValer]

The Apostles taught us so that we would not have to go beyond what is written. I choose Creation because the Apostles often referred back to Adam and Eve as real people. For example:

Poor reason. I'm a TE who holds to a literal Adam and Eve. Being a TE doesn't mean you reject a literal Adam and Eve.

Your reasons are illogical and are void. I am living proof they are.

 

[FenderElctrc]

Poor reason. I'm a TE who holds to a literal Adam and Eve. Being a TE doesn't mean you reject a literal Adam and Eve.

Your reasons are illogical and are void. I am living proof they are.

Is that needed? I have done nothing to you, so why do you say such things. "Your reasons are illogical and are void." The most important part of Christianity is love. Read what Paul wrote about love:

1 Corinthians 13:4-6:
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;

 

[Deamiter]

Is that needed? I have done nothing to you, so why do you say such things. "Your reasons are illogical and are void." The most important part of Christianity is love.

Wait a second, he has done nothing to you either. He did not say that you are illogical and stupid. He pointed out that your reasons are not well-supported.

Pointing out flaws in somebody else's reasoning or theology is NEVER equivalent to attacking the person personally. If you feel insulted when somebody questions your views, perhaps you need to spend some time sepereting your self-worth from the theological views you hold. After all, this is a debate forum where we are SUPPOSED to debate our views.

 

[PaladinValer]

Is that needed? I have done nothing to you, so why do you say such things. "Your reasons are illogical and are void."

I said nothing about you; I said that your argument and reason for rejecting TEism is poor and illogical, which makes it null and void.

The most important part of Christianity is love. Read what Paul wrote about love:

1. You should read that yourself, since utilizing the Fallacy of Pity like you are is very puffed-up.
2. Even if I utilized a real ad hominem sentence or paragraph, if the post also included a rational and logical argument, then your rejection of it would still be the Fallacy of Style over Substance, which your post to which I am replying to is evident of anyway.

If you cannot debate the subject without people pointing out errors in your arguments making you feel upset, angry, or attacked, then you should not debate the subject. And if debating in and of itself results in the same, you might want to rethink everything about CF.

Wait a second, he has done nothing to you either. He did not say that you are illogical and stupid. He pointed out that your reasons are not well-supported.

Pointing out flaws in somebody else's reasoning or theology is NEVER equivalent to attacking the person personally. If you feel insulted when somebody questions your views, perhaps you need to spend some time sepereting your self-worth from the theological views you hold. After all, this is a debate forum where we are SUPPOSED to debate our views.

Good to see someone else appreciate the finer distinctions between persons and their positions.

 

[Mallon]

You could have phrased yourself a little more gently, Paladin Valer. Speak the truth in love.

 

[PaladinValer]

Perhaps, you're right, but it gets very tiring having to hear how "absurd" TEism is when it supposedly abandons a literal Adam and Eve or rejects the Fall, etc.

 

[juvenissun]

This is the only thing i don't agree with because everyone must think for themselves!

We must think beyond what is written always, it only strengthens my belief in what is written once i think about everything that is not.
If people didn't think beyond whats written we'd be living in the dark ages.
One can be a thinker and a Christian......i am one for example.

I think we should interpret Paul's words as: do not think more than what is in Christianity. I agree with that. It does not mean we should not think. But it means we SHOULD NOT think into other types of beliefs (in Paul's case, Judaism and other Greek myths).

For example, I don't think a Christian should think deep into Buddhism. Otherwise, you would "definitely" have no time left to study Christianity.

 

[gluadys]

1 Corinthians 4:6-7:
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

The Apostles taught us so that we would not have to go beyond what is written.

I think this is taking what is written out of context (and that is a way of going beyond what is written). The Corinthians to whom Paul was writing all saw themselves as followers of Christ. But they were dividing themselves into groups according to the teacher who had led them to Christ. Instead of rejoicing together that they were all brothers and sisters in Christ, they were dividing and quarreling because some saw themselves as following Christ and Paul and others saw themselves as following Christ and Apollos, and each group was boasting about whom they were following in addition to Christ.

So Paul pulls them back to the basis of their unity.

Just so we see Christians today who cut themselves off from others because those others do not follow the same human leader they do. And whether that human leader is Pope Benedict, Ken Ham, Bishop Spong or Hugh Ross makes no difference. Anyone who boasts or thinks of themselves as a better Christian than others because they follow a human leader the other does not is going beyond what is written, just as the Corinthians were.

I choose Creation because the Apostles often referred back to Adam and Eve as real people. For example:[/COLOR]

Romans 5:14:
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Strange, the very text which to you says Paul is speaking of Adam as a "real person" is one where Paul himself says that Adam is "a type of Him who was to come".

Both Tinker Grey and Paladin Vader have given you explanations of why this reasoning is weak.

1. A reference to a person doesn't tell us whether the author thinks the person was real or not.
2. TE does not require that Adam be fictional. You can have evolution AND a real Adam.

I just made it to explain why I choose Creation. cool.

And I didn't post to say you should not choose creationism. But you should think your reasons through more carefully.

 

[dana3262]

I think we should interpret Paul's words as: do not think more than what is in Christianity. I agree with that. It does not mean we should not think. But it means we SHOULD NOT think into other types of beliefs (in Paul's case, Judaism and other Greek myths).

For example, I don't think a Christian should think deep into Buddhism. Otherwise, you would "definitely" have no time left to study Christianity.

I don't spend all my time studying Christianity,in fact i spend very little doing so as i know where my foundations are, i don't neglect the study either, i just plan my time and how i spend it.Reading about Buddhism or anything for that matter can only benefit an individual,never hinder, and its a great learning tool.

I spent some time reading the Quran and quickly came to the conclusion it wasn't worth finishing,had i not read it i would never have came to that conclusion as i wont judge without personal knowledge of something.
As for Buddhism, i still continue to study it as it has opened my mind and contributed to me being a better person in general.

We've no reason to fear any other teachings and to think we can't learn from beliefs contrary to our own is foolish.To have an understanding of that which doesn't interest you is to know the world.

Again, we must always know beliefs outside of Christianity, for how will we know the true value of Christ if we know nothing else!

 

[FenderElctrc]

I said nothing about you; I said that your argument and reason for rejecting TEism is poor and illogical, which makes it null and void.



1. You should read that yourself, since utilizing the Fallacy of Pity like you are is very puffed-up.
2. Even if I utilized a real ad hominem sentence or paragraph, if the post also included a rational and logical argument, then your rejection of it would still be the Fallacy of Style over Substance, which your post to which I am replying to is evident of anyway.

If you cannot debate the subject without people pointing out errors in your arguments making you feel upset, angry, or attacked, then you should not debate the subject. And if debating in and of itself results in the same, you might want to rethink everything about CF.



Good to see someone else appreciate the finer distinctions between persons and their positions.

Ok, man. Sorry.

 

[FenderElctrc]

I never stated the main reason why I believe Creation. It's mostly because I feel what's right in my spirit. I prayed for God to tell me and I felt when I read it that Creation was right, but I also feel that there are some things in evolution that are true. I don't know what, just feel that in my spirit.

 

[dana3262]

I never stated the main reason why I believe Creation. It's mostly because I feel what's right in my spirit. I prayed for God to tell me and I felt when I read it that Creation was right, but I also feel that there are some things in evolution that are true. I don't know what, just feel that in my spirit.

Sometimes the most logical and honest thing to do is admit we have absolutely no idea!

This is my stance,i feel God created our existence but how he did it i don't know, no one does,they only have heavily biased opinion towards one method or another.

In the end God wouldn't want us arguing about how it started,so long long as we acknowledge He started it is all that matters!

 

[Deamiter]

I never stated the main reason why I believe Creation. It's mostly because I feel what's right in my spirit. I prayed for God to tell me and I felt when I read it that Creation was right, but I also feel that there are some things in evolution that are true. I don't know what, just feel that in my spirit.

That's interesting. To be quite honest, I think the vast majority of those who accept evolution on this board would quickly reject the understanding of evolution many creationists have. And that's not meant to be an insult in any way -- it's just that there are so many misconceptions like "you have to throw out the Bible" or that "God cannot have used evolution" etc...

I would never claim to know what the Holy Spirit was trying to tell you, but I wonder if the parts of 'creationism' he is leading you to accept are related to misunderstanding of what evolution actually entails, not leading you to reject the evolution that is accepted by the scientific community. In other words, if you think that accepting evolution would require ignoring parts of the Bible or elevating science over the Bible, I too would encourage you to continue to accept young-earth creationism until and unless you come to see how those of us who accept evolution do so without in any way compromising the message of the Bible. Otherwise I fear you would come to accept a false version of both Christianity and evolution!

 

[FenderElctrc]

That's interesting. To be quite honest, I think the vast majority of those who accept evolution on this board would quickly reject the understanding of evolution many creationists have. And that's not meant to be an insult in any way -- it's just that there are so many misconceptions like "you have to throw out the Bible" or that "God cannot have used evolution" etc...

I would never claim to know what the Holy Spirit was trying to tell you, but I wonder if the parts of 'creationism' he is leading you to accept are related to misunderstanding of what evolution actually entails, not leading you to reject the evolution that is accepted by the scientific community. In other words, if you think that accepting evolution would require ignoring parts of the Bible or elevating science over the Bible, I too would encourage you to continue to accept young-earth creationism until and unless you come to see how those of us who accept evolution do so without in any way compromising the message of the Bible. Otherwise I fear you would come to accept a false version of both Christianity and evolution!

Yes, I do not know about evolution that much. I made my post because I've been hearing people say that the first 11 chapters are myths. I don't really care though. It's not really that important that we know all this stuff. As long as we believe that God created us and this world and that are sins started from Adam and Eve, then I believe it's fine. I don't have a problem with evolutionists. I just chose Creation because of that stuff which you just showed me does not really apply to you.
Also, I don't call myself a YEC or OEC. I really don't see the point at all in knowing how old the Earth is.
So, no hard feelings guys?

 

[FenderElctrc]

Sometimes the most logical and honest thing to do is admit we have absolutely no idea!

This is my stance,i feel God created our existence but how he did it i don't know, no one does,they only have heavily biased opinion towards one method or another.

In the end God wouldn't want us arguing about how it started,so long long as we acknowledge He started it is all that matters!

Yeah, that's probably what I'm like now. I just recently started looking at stuff on the origin of the Earth. It only happened because I watched a few videos from someone I'm subscribed to. I usually don't talk about this. I'm going to preach when I'm an adult and I'm not going to talk about it. I will probably refer to Adam and Eve sometimes and maybe the flood, but I'm not going to argue and say what's right.
A few months ago, I used to be horrible. I would get in fights all the time. I got in a fight on the homosexual thread and got an infraction. That infraction is probably what changed me. It showed me that I was acting wrong. So, I began to study love in the Bible and found that it was the most important thing. I apologized to the ones I offended and I didn't go back until recently. About a month or two ago, I felt a feeling to go back to that forum, but got afraid. I ended up going back and just making a thread against homosexuality, but not condemning and hateful. I just this week made a thread stating all the verses I could find. But, I believe I had somewhat of a revelation or something. I believe I'm supposed to preach love to them, not their sins. So, in that thread I just made, I talked about salvation and how no sin is worse than another. There are big fights there and it gets pretty bad. People always get warnings. I pray that I can help them and that God's will is done.

 

[gluadys]

I usually don't talk about this. I'm going to preach when I'm an adult and I'm not going to talk about it. I will probably refer to Adam and Eve sometimes and maybe the flood, but I'm not going to argue and say what's right.

That's probably the best idea. TEs, even those who don't hold to Adam and Eve being individual, historical people, believe there is a lot of truth in the story and that it is important for it to be in the Bible. Same with the flood. God has uses for these stories in every Christian life, no matter what we think about what sort of story they are.

But, I believe I had somewhat of a revelation or something. I believe I'm supposed to preach love to them, not their sins. So, in that thread I just made, I talked about salvation and how no sin is worse than another.

There has been far too much focus on this one issue. Just like in the days when people got all riled up about witchcraft, as if no other sin mattered. Too much "flavour of the month" feel in it for me.

But it is never out of season to preach the love and mercy of God.