Religious intolerance :(

[czach8]

Yesterday, all the churches (of every denomination, c100) in my borough (in the UK) got together to pray for our borough. We have this kind of meeting 3 times a year.

And praise God brother, for that is how it should be.

 

[czach8]

I have found a good verse from the Hua Hu Ching that definitely guides all of us in how to deal with tolerance:

Hua Hu Ching 15 says, "To the ordinary being, others often require tolerance. To the mature being, there is no such thing as tolerance, because there is no such thing as other. She has given up all ideas of individuality and extended her goodwill without prejudice in every direction. Never hating, never resisting, never contesting, she is simply always learning and being. Loving, hating, having expectations: all these are attachments. Attachment prevents the growth of one's true being. Therefore the integral being is attached to nothing and can relate to everyone with an unstructured attitude. Because of this, her very existence benefits all things. You see, that which has form is equal to that which is without form, and that which is alive is equal to that which rests. This is the subtle truth, not a religious invention, but only those who are already mature will understand this.

I prefer to adhere with this priciple. God bless you all.

 

[elijah115]

..God bless you too.

 

[peepnklown]

Intolerance is the bane of a free society.

 

[peter22]

It's good to see rational discussion on this thread. I'm very happy to read lots of positive responses from both sides of the fence. Makes me feel like there is hope after all.

 

[universalmessenger]

hola universalmessenger

i have been trying to redirect these comments you have posted to me in the last several threads... can we please leave the subject alone? i do not care who started it or why it was started, i am just happy that it stopped. i do not have any desire to continue this disagreement across the forum, and i really think we are having a much cooler and more polite conversation on this thread about the same topic... so why don't you please join in and leave the other issues alone?

gracias

if u could please stop making those false allegations that are inadvertently directed at me then well enuf can b left alone. ty.

 

[elijah115]

i do not care who started it or why it was started, i am just happy that it stopped

I bolded this for emphasis because I think it will save her more time, and if you are willing to seek peace it will save you time as well.

God bless you universalmessenger

 

[universalmessenger]

ty. elijah. i'll take ur advice.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Intolerance is the bane of a free society.

Ignorance is the bane of all societies, particularly when this ignorance is worshiped

 

[elijah115]

Ignorance is the bane of all societies, particularly when this ignorance is worshiped

I would have said immorality is the bane of all societies. Even an ignorant person who is kind, patient, caring, generous, meek, and loyal is a valuable member of society. Unless you think knowledge is to be worshipped, rather than all human life respected.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

I would have said immorality is the bane of all societies. Even an ignorant person who is kind, patient, caring, generous, meek, and loyal is a valuable member of society. Unless you think knowledge is to be worshipped, rather than all human life respected.

Ignorance is the lack of knowledge. When people lack knowledge they are easily lead and manipulated. I am sure that there were ignorant, kind, patient, caring meek people in Nazi Germany, inquisition Europe, the Christian crusades of the America’s and Islamic states today. But their all stood and still stand back and watch the persecution of innocent people because of the ignorance of total belief in an IGNORANT ideology (religious or other)

 

[universalmessenger]

Post 10

....to be called hateful, ignorant and intolerant for adhering to these protocols but for reasons completely separated from hate, ignorance or intolerance is very upsetting... and only serves to marginalize people.....

oh LORD. NOT AGAIN. when will u stop crying wolf???

Post 15

....but it is sad and ironic when we turn the definition of 'religious intolerance' into another shouting match to disrespect each other and stop listening....

snowbunny answer me this. plz tell me who was yelling @ u in my last thread???

Post 32

....i have been trying to redirect these comments you have posted to me in the last several threads... can we please leave the subject alone? i do not care who started it or why it was started, i am just happy that it stopped. i do not have any desire to continue this disagreement across the forum, and i really think we are having a much cooler and more polite conversation on this thread about the same topic... so why don't you please join in and leave the other issues alone?

if u could please stop making those false allegations that are inadvertently directed at me then well enuf can b left alone. ty.... oh and please, out of respect, i ask that u do not direct those false allegations toward other members that were posting in my thread as well. i make it a point to make sure that everyone is respectful and courteous to one another during a debate and i can assure u this was the case. so i would appreciate it if u respected my wishes. ty.

 

[elijah115]

Ignorance is the lack of knowledge. When people lack knowledge they are easily lead and manipulated. I am sure that there were ignorant, kind, patient, caring meek people in Nazi Germany, inquisition Europe, the Christian crusades of the America’s and Islamic states today. But their all stood and still stand back and watch the persecution of innocent people because of the ignorance of total belief in an IGNORANT ideology (religious or other)

Your point is reasonable, and it plays on semantics in an obvious smart Alec kind of way. Yet ignorance isn't the prime reason for conformity in the face of evil such as that which you mentioned; it's fear, immorality, cowardice and self-interest, I could go on.

As christian it's a capital sin to murder, rape, commit adultery etc. If everyone in germany had real Christian moral virtues at the time as well as courage, with the particular exception of academic acumen, the Holocaust would not have happened. Whoever is in Christ should not have thoughts of racism, sexism, or any prejudice.

So it remains that ignorance isn't the major bane of societies. After all, Albert Einstein came from Germany, did he not? And was born in Germany. Although he immigrated, who are the people stayed behind to improve the killing methods, weapons and eugenics research, [hyperbole]retards[/hyperbole]? Who developed the Atomic bomb? The ignorant people among the population? A scientist once said the way to develop the most powerful atom bomb is in devotion to pure science.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Your point is reasonable, and it plays on semantics in an obvious smart Alec kind of way. Yet ignorance isn't the prime reason for conformity in the face of evil such as that which you mentioned; it's fear, immorality, cowardice and self-interest, I could go on.

As christian it's a capital sin to murder, rape, commit adultery etc. If everyone in germany had real Christian moral virtues at the time as well as courage, with the particular exception of academic acumen, the Holocaust would not have happened. Whoever is in Christ should not have thoughts of racism, sexism, or any prejudice.

So it remains that ignorance isn't the major bane of societies. After all, Albert Einstein came from Germany, did he not? And was born in Germany. Although he immigrated, who are the people stayed behind to improve the killing methods, weapons and eugenics research, [hyperbole]retards[/hyperbole]? Who developed the Atomic bomb? The ignorant people among the population? A scientist once said the way to develop the most powerful atom bomb is in devotion to pure science.

By the time the murdering starts it’s to late, and you are right, at that point fear, self preservation, cowardice etc do come into it. But its ignorance by the masses that gets you to that point. You must be sceptical and question any group that says it knows best, particularly of groups who do not elect their leaders (i.e. religions, dictatorships)

Interestingly you say Christians are against murder. But in Christian America you murder people (capital punishment) for their sins.

In the Muslim world (Saudi Arabia for example) people are murdered for their sins

In secular Britain, no persons are murdered for their sin.

 

[elijah115]

By the time the murdering starts it’s to late, and you are right, at that point fear, self preservation, cowardice etc do come into it. But its ignorance by the masses that gets you to that point. You must be sceptical and question any group that says it knows best, particularly of groups who do not elect their leaders (i.e. religions, dictatorships)

Interestingly you say Christians are against murder. But in Christian America you murder people (capital punishment) for their sins.

In the Muslim world (Saudi Arabia for example) people are murdered for their sins

In secular Britain, no persons are murdered for their sin.

I like your arguments, in that so far as if they serve your purpose then it looks logical. But there are simple obvious underlying errors in your arguments.

Christians are meant to be led by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God, not solely elders of the church (who must be beyond reproach [expanded in 1 Timothy 4 & Paul's letter to Titus]). The US is officially more secular than Britain is, given the separation between state and religion. UK = Church of England? You say "You"??? That is presuming I am American, and not British???

You mention........Capital punishment, about which Jesus said "Do not judge (meaning to pass sentence on), or you too will be judged." Matthew 7:1

About christianity being a state religion, it is not an example which was set out by Jesus; the reason Paul wrote this:

PHP 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

PHP 2:7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

Phillipians (2:6-7)

About being "Sheep" we are taught the following, in 1 John 4:1:

"1JN 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

As a christian, (and I don't care whether you accept this) it is not my responsibility or the fault of the Christian gospel, what happens in "Islamic nations" (speaking in stereotypical terms which you'll understand).

There's nothing extraordinary about being skeptical, or rather "cautious" as I would put it. Christians have to be "skeptical", muslims are skeptical, some of them are paranoid even to extent of thinking 9/11 didn't happen. In your own mind, perhaps only atheists are skeptical? (because you restrict the word skepticism to merely not believing in God). Everyone is skeptical, and we are left with your argument that ignorance is the bane of all societies.

A further dimension is the actual definition of ignorance meaning lack of knowledge. Christians should and in the case of most mature christians know and follow their scriptures inside out. Muslims should, I hope, and in a reasonable proportion follow the good bits of their scripture. Atheists generally bash and scapegoat all religions and have a superfacial knowledge of all or each of the major religions. Some atheists are ignorant (lack knowledge) of most spiritual matters. Both christian and muslims communities contain fakes and sincere adherents.

Which leaves us with whether atheists are more knowledgeable generally than theists. I don't have any prejudices about any group being smarter than the other, so if we assume both groups have a normal distribution of general knowledge, we are left with atheists and theists having equal general knowledge, but atheists and theists have unequal knowledge of spiritual matters, with the atheists tending towards ignorance in spiritual matters.

Evidence suggests weapons of mass destruction are not designed by the most ignorant members of society yet I am to conclude that only the ignorant members of society are a problem? To an extent, I can agree, but how do you figure ignorance is the bane of all societies? Let's be stereotypical and say Africa is one of the most backward continents in the world, they're ignorant, what proportion of the world's war and genocides started there?

If someone is Christ like and courageous in their belief, how do you figure that they would take part in genocide? Take care of the heart, and ignorance is not an issue. Don't take of the heart, and it doesn't matter whether you're an American scientist building the atom bomb, or a German engineer designing the gas chambers, people will get murdered (and I say murdered not killed).

 

[Peach81]

As christian it's a capital sin to murder, rape, commit adultery etc. If everyone in germany had real Christian moral virtues at the time as well as courage, with the particular exception of academic acumen, the Holocaust would not have happened. Whoever is in Christ should not have thoughts of racism, sexism, or any prejudice.

Easy for you to say. Those people had just lost a war and were in the midst of a horrible depression. People had lost everything, and when the charasmatic Hitler came along and gave them all a scapegoat to blame, it was only natural that they would buy into it.

And it's funny that you mention that anyone who truly believes in Christ would reject bigotry, because most of the problems in this country dealing with racism, sexism, or any kind of prejudice come from the biggest bible-thumping Jesus freaks. In fact, they always seem to use the bible to back up their prejudices. Since racism and sexism have since fallen out of chic, the wheel of hate has turned to homosexuals.

So it remains that ignorance isn't the major bane of societies. After all, Albert Einstein came from Germany, did he not? And was born in Germany.

Albert Einstein wasn't ignorant, was he? He was a learned scientist who has since been immortalized by his theory of relativity. Comparing Einstein to the rest of the German masses is like comparing Thomas Edison to your average American.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

I like your arguments, in that so far as if they serve your purpose then it looks logical. But there are simple obvious underlying errors in your arguments.

Christians are meant to be led by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God, not solely elders of the church (who must be beyond reproach [expanded in 1 Timothy 4 & Paul's letter to Titus]). The US is officially more secular than Britain is, given the separation between state and religion. UK = Church of England? You say "You"??? That is presuming I am American, and not British???

You mention........Capital punishment, about which Jesus said "Do not judge (meaning to pass sentence on), or you too will be judged." Matthew 7:1

About christianity being a state religion, it is not an example which was set out by Jesus; the reason Paul wrote this:

PHP 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

PHP 2:7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

Phillipians (2:6-7)

About being "Sheep" we are taught the following, in 1 John 4:1:

"1JN 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

As a christian, (and I don't care whether you accept this) it is not my responsibility or the fault of the Christian gospel, what happens in "Islamic nations" (speaking in stereotypical terms which you'll understand).

There's nothing extraordinary about being skeptical, or rather "cautious" as I would put it. Christians have to be "skeptical", muslims are skeptical, some of them are paranoid even to extent of thinking 9/11 didn't happen. In your own mind, perhaps only atheists are skeptical? (because you restrict the word skepticism to merely not believing in God). Everyone is skeptical, and we are left with your argument that ignorance is the bane of all societies.

A further dimension is the actual definition of ignorance meaning lack of knowledge. Christians should and in the case of most mature christians know and follow their scriptures inside out. Muslims should, I hope, and in a reasonable proportion follow the good bits of their scripture. Atheists generally bash and scapegoat all religions and have a superfacial knowledge of all or each of the major religions. Some atheists are ignorant (lack knowledge) of most spiritual matters. Both christian and muslims communities contain fakes and sincere adherents.

Which leaves us with whether atheists are more knowledgeable generally than theists. I don't have any prejudices about any group being smarter than the other, so if we assume both groups have a normal distribution of general knowledge, we are left with atheists and theists having equal general knowledge, but atheists and theists have unequal knowledge of spiritual matters, with the atheists tending towards ignorance in spiritual matters.

Evidence suggests weapons of mass destruction are not designed by the most ignorant members of society yet I am to conclude that only the ignorant members of society are a problem? To an extent, I can agree, but how do you figure ignorance is the bane of all societies? Let's be stereotypical and say Africa is one of the most backward continents in the world, they're ignorant, what proportion of the world's war and genocides started there?

If someone is Christ like and courageous in their belief, how do you figure that they would take part in genocide? Take care of the heart, and ignorance is not an issue. Don't take of the heart, and it doesn't matter whether you're an American scientist building the atom bomb, or a German engineer designing the gas chambers, people will get murdered (and I say murdered not killed).

America on the face of it my looks secular, but as we all know Bush was very dependent on the Bible belt to get him into power. I also gather he has weekly conversations with religious leaders.

Every time there is a disaster or tragedy in America, the president leads the nation in prayer.

If the shuttle is launched, again it’s the Lord’s Prayer

I also think, but not certain, that all children recite some verse in school, in which it is stated that America is protected by God.

From outside, it appears everything America does, it does with Gods blessing or god’s protection.

All this preying has not been to successful for the USA of late.

If a prime minister in Britain was to make a speach, and finish it with the statement “in god’s name” or “in god we trust”, he or she would lose all credibility, and probably be out of a job pretty soon.

So in America’s case I use the word ignorance to mean the religious people who believe in creationism, young Earth, intelligent design, miracles and heavenly intervention.

For it is these people that are being blindly lead by religious zealots, in the name of god, whilst being told they must have blind faith.

 

[Snowbunny]

America on the face of it my looks secular, but as we all know Bush was very dependent on the Bible belt to get him into power. I also gather he has weekly conversations with religious leaders.

Every time there is a disaster or tragedy in America, the president leads the nation in prayer.

If the shuttle is launched, again it’s the Lord’s Prayer

I also think, but not certain, that all children recite some verse in school, in which it is stated that America is protected by God.

From outside, it appears everything America does, it does with Gods blessing or god’s protection.

All this preying has not been to successful for the USA of late.

If a prime minister in Britain was to make a speach, and finish it with the statement “in god’s name” or “in god we trust”, he or she would lose all credibility, and probably be out of a job pretty soon.

So in America’s case I use the word ignorance to mean the religious people who believe in creationism, young Earth, intelligent design, miracles and heavenly intervention.

For it is these people that are being blindly lead by religious zealots, in the name of god, whilst being told they must have blind faith.

hola ChordatesLegacy,

i do not think this is just something that came with president bush... almost every president has ended a speech 'God bless america,' many of our most famous political speeches have deeply religious (christian) undertones:

the gettysburg address, i have a dream, kennedy's inaugural address, president ford's speech about ending our long national nightmare, FDR's pearl harbor speech, and john winthrop's sermons.

i think it is in our culture (traditionally) to believe that success is built upon blessings from God and very hard work on our own part. i think for a long time it has made us humble to believe that our successes were not because of our tremendous work ethic, but instead because God allowed it to happen after we worked so hard.

today i think we have cheapened this... sometimes we work very hard and accomplish things, then we congratulate ourselves for being the best people in the world... ignoring or paying only nominal attention to the fact our hard work would have been meaningless if God had not decided to give us success and we should thank Him for it.

other times we approach God for all our answers, demanding that He do the work for us because we are entitled to it due to our inherent specialness... no work is necessary, since God will do it for us, and no thanks are necessary since God owes us for being so wonderful and special in the world

the latter is what i think president bush embodies, the former i think is what president reagan embodied.

we should blame ourselves for our mistakes, we should thank God for our successes and we should work very hard for good things and we should be much more humble in the world... in my opinion

que Dios te bendiga

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

hola ChordatesLegacy,

i do not think this is just something that came with president bush... almost every president has ended a speech 'God bless america,' many of our most famous political speeches have deeply religious (christian) undertones:

the gettysburg address, i have a dream, kennedy's inaugural address, president ford's speech about ending our long national nightmare, FDR's pearl harbor speech, and john winthrop's sermons.

i think it is in our culture (traditionally) to believe that success is built upon blessings from God and very hard work on our own part. i think for a long time it has made us humble to believe that our successes were not because of our tremendous work ethic, but instead because God allowed it to happen after we worked so hard.

today i think we have cheapened this... sometimes we work very hard and accomplish things, then we congratulate ourselves for being the best people in the world... ignoring or paying only nominal attention to the fact our hard work would have been meaningless if God had not decided to give us success and we should thank Him for it.

other times we approach God for all our answers, demanding that He do the work for us because we are entitled to it due to our inherent specialness... no work is necessary, since God will do it for us, and no thanks are necessary since God owes us for being so wonderful and special in the world

the latter is what i think president bush embodies, the former i think is what president reagan embodied.

we should blame ourselves for our mistakes, we should thank God for our successes and we should work very hard for good things and we should be much more humble in the world... in my opinion

que Dios te bendiga

Amazingly I agree with a lot of what you have stated, but I have a few disagreements. Firstly: we humans stand along, yes I am a firm believer in hard work, and that we should strive for a better world. However, we get no help from God, if all humans decided to sit on our arses all day, then we would all starve. Secondly: humans are responsible for both our mistakes and our successes; hopefully we will learn from our mistakes and repeat our successes. Thirdly: I think Americana’s leaders make too much of prising the Lord. Being outside America perhaps its easier for me and other to see it for what it is, a gimmick, to keep the support of the foolish religious masses.

Lets be honest, Americans would never vote for a president who was anything other a practicing Christian, no matter how good a job he would do.

Without sounding to extreme, if the chose was between a Christian imbecile and a non Christian person of high calibre, Americans would vote for the imbecile. What I am saying is, being a avid Christian (even if it’s only a front) is a prerequisite for the presidents job

 

[elijah115]

Easy for you to say. Those people had just lost a war and were in the midst of a horrible depression. People had lost everything, and when the charasmatic Hitler came along and gave them all a scapegoat to blame, it was only natural that they would buy into it.

And it's funny that you mention that anyone who truly believes in Christ would reject bigotry, because most of the problems in this country dealing with racism, sexism, or any kind of prejudice come from the biggest bible-thumping Jesus freaks. In fact, they always seem to use the bible to back up their prejudices. Since racism and sexism have since fallen out of chic, the wheel of hate has turned to homosexuals.

I said reject "being participants in genocide". You twisted what I said into one word "bigotry" so you could argue against me (when I didn't say that the way you put it). Please read the whole picture of what I've said so far in this thread, and walk away, then come back when you not [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed about what I said to Kj before you decide you disagree with what I'm saying.

I am born black. People cannot born gay. If you want to argue about what I believe, go to Ethics and Morality, don't derail this thread because I don't agree with you.

Albert Einstein wasn't ignorant, was he? He was a learned scientist who has since been immortalized by his theory of relativity. Comparing Einstein to the rest of the German masses is like comparing Thomas Edison to your average American.

You should read the debate that going on here, before lauching. It's easy to disagree with everything someone says just because they are christian, not because you actually disagree with them on everything.