Religious intolerance :(

[peter22]

I'm faintly disturbed at how intolerant *certain* Christians (and other faiths, but this is a Christian board, so that's my focus) are towards other beliefs. At least agnostics have the honesty to say, "I don't really know."

 

[Omnichaotic]

I know what you mean.
It would be so much nicer if people could focus on those things that are similar and draw us closer rather than the things that separate us. Or at least, not feel that they have to attack others beliefs. Oh, well. I believe in people, and think that we are gradually making progress, even if at times it doesn't feel like it.

 

[universalmessenger]

ty peter for reposting and addressing this issue. did u realize i had a thread just like this but as u can see someone maliciously acted out and got my thread shut down. she simply couldn't handle the truth... so she played the victim. the martyr. she made a whole bunch of unfounded accusations and accused everybody of name calling, shouting, and gaining up on her. next thing i know the thread got shut down.

 

[universalmessenger]

i agree with omnichoatic.

 

[RandomSock]

Hi Peter22!

I sort of understand your frustration,and to be honest,I often wish people would behave more the way I woud like them too
I guess this being a christian forum,many people who consider themselves christians,want to feel protected,at home here,with their beliefs safe and respected.

People generaly tend to defend their own beliefs,and for some of them,what you call tolerance to other faith,is simply betraying their own - so they fight,and often it can be not pretty.My advice is to let them be,because the more you point your finger,the more defensive they will become.

Many people are new to those discussions,and they will slowly learn how to interact,some are insecure,some feel
the justice is on their side,etc...

In my experience,if one wishes for more tolerance,they have to start
acting it,and part of it is accepting that not everyone
can or wants to be tolerant.

 

[Snowbunny]

I'm faintly disturbed at how intolerant *certain* Christians (and other faiths, but this is a Christian board, so that's my focus) are towards other beliefs. At least agnostics have the honesty to say, "I don't really know."

hola peter22,

i think sometimes christians and non christians are presented in a very bad light on this webforum because of the arrogance, polemics and nastiness people think they are allowed to get away with when they are not speaking to a person face to face.

for example, i could not even imagine a person meeting a muslim for the first time and then after five minutes calling their prophet a "child molestor" to their face... however on the internet that no longer surprises me.

i think this is actually a hopeful sign, because it at least suggests people understand their are boundaries... even though they suspend them when they speak online sometimes. and if people understand there are boundaries then there is an opportunity to help them understand why they should observe them all the time.

i think beyond observing basic respect for each others beliefs (i believe this, and you do not, you believe that, and i do not... lets not disrespect each other) it is difficult to define what 'religious tolerance' means... to me it feels like an elastic term that very often includes specific religious beliefs (like universalism, all religions are the same) and social goals (like cohesion), which may clash with certain religious beliefs.

for example, i know that many religions including islam and many branches of christianity believe that there is only one way to heaven... through their paradigm. a muslim could not believe in a definition of 'religious tolerance' that includes univeralism. they would either be considered a hypocrit or religiously intolerant... simply because the elastic definition did not allow for them to believe what their religion teaches.

another example would be that many religions, again including islam and certain branches of christianity, limit the amount of interaction between their religious community and other religious communities. this includes things like interreligious marriage, participating in holidays of other religions or even being an integrated part of the wider community. the muslims and certain branches of Christianity either forbid, or advise against interreligious marriage in some or all situations. i know that many muslims are very sensitive about participation in holidays like Christmas... fearful that they would endorse beliefs that are not theirs, and at the same time fearful that they will offend others or be thought of as hateful (let's come back to this), and then there are the Amish who live in very closed communities and had to fight a court case to prevent their children from being educated in public schools with everybody else... again, because their religion forbids that level of interraction.

again, an elastic definition of 'religious intolerance' that includes values of social cohesion (however noble) do not take into consideration these caveats of religious belief, and do not allow believers to participate... they are confronted with either being considered religiously intolerant, or they must turn their backs to their religious beliefs.

i consider that religiously intolerant. no society should have the right to use insults, marginalization or social peer pressure to make people give up their beliefs. it is one of the things i desperately pity about the situation muslims face in the West right now... if people are law abiding but perhaps go against the grain of social morals or just what we consider 'culture' (again muslims face this problem all the time in the West) then they should be treated respectfully as different but valuable people.

one of the big things that i think offends certain religious adherents is to be called 'intolerant.' it is a term that has very strong connotations to it... conjuring up images of racism, *hatred* and ignorance. many religions, again like islam and certain sects of christianity have reasons for having different perspectives on universalism or social cohesion... perspectives which are not the same as those held by society but are hardly inspired by hatred or ignorance. i know for example muslims do not permit daughters to marry outside the faith, and sons, while encouraged to do this only rarely, are allowed to. as i understand this it has to do with the way the family is structured according to their beliefs... not ignorance of what religions are around them, or hatred of those who live near them.

to be called hateful, ignorant and intolerant for adhering to these protocols but for reasons completely separated from hate, ignorance or intolerance is very upsetting... and only serves to marginalize people. i know muslims very often feel 'on the outs' within the west, and i would imagine this plays a very important role. everyday we turn on the tv there is another presentation about these wicked people and their strange and bizarre beliefs. when muslims wish to explain 'religiously tolerant' individuals do not always care to listen... because they already know the actions and do not care about the reasons.

please do not misunderstand me. i do not mean to say that there is no such thing as religious intolerance... i think there is... and i think i see it on this webforum a lot. the shouting, polemics, blatant insults, lack of propriety and respect and vilification of 'weird people.' i consider this intolerance because it shows a complete lack of desire to learn about things that perhaps we do not agree with... that unwillingness and refusal to even know contrary opinions or beliefs... let alone respect their opinions is to me a lack of toleration and is the essence of intolerance.

but i still think that 'religious intolerance' is elastic and means different things to different people... but it is sad and ironic when we turn the definition of 'religious intolerance' into another shouting match to disrespect each other and stop listening.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[dialee16]

It's a debate forum, it's going to seem like people are being intolerant sometimes but really people just get caught up in heated debates and sometimes say something they wouldn't normally say. Yes i have met
2 people on this forum that were very intolerant. Most everyone else is pretty mature.

 

[Peach81]

I'm faintly disturbed at how intolerant *certain* Christians (and other faiths, but this is a Christian board, so that's my focus) are towards other beliefs. At least agnostics have the honesty to say, "I don't really know."

Yes, the arrogance can be mind-spinning. What makes it worse is that these same people hide behind their religion to justify their religious intolerance. Using "God says your way is wrong" is just a cheap attempt of using a higher power to rationalize one's own prejudices.

 

[universalmessenger]

Yes, the arrogance can be mind-spinning. What makes it worse is that these same people hide behind their religion to justify their religious intolerance. Using "God says your way is wrong" is just a cheap attempt of using a higher power to rationalize one's own prejudices.

ty peach. well worded.

 

[universalmessenger]

to be called hateful, ignorant and intolerant for adhering to these protocols but for reasons completely separated from hate, ignorance or intolerance is very upsetting... and only serves to marginalize people.

oh LORD. NOT AGAIN. when will u stop crying wolf???

 

[Snowbunny]

hola universalmessenger

assume my post was what i actually think about the topic. what aspect of my post do you disagree with, and why? gracias

que Dios te bendiga

 

[.Sabre.]

You get extremists for any religion and/or ideology, it isn't right but it is unlikely to change.

Sometimes, as several other posters have cited, a debate can get heated, particularly when people feel strongly about the topic. This can cause some people who lack emotional maturity to come across as intolerant.However, there are some truly intolerant people, both Christians and non-Christians.

 

[Snowbunny]

gracias sabre

i definitely agree that maturity plays an important role. i think as people get older and are more comfortable with themselves and their place in the world, they are more willing to accept that you can respect a person believes something different than you... and that you do not have to accept it, and you do not need to make it an item of constant contention. i think just abiding like that is the essense of 'tolerance.'

que Dios te bendiga

 

[czach8]

for example, i know that many religions including islam and many branches of christianity believe that there is only one way to heaven... through their paradigm. a muslim could not believe in a definition of 'religious tolerance' that includes univeralism. they would either be considered a hypocrit or religiously intolerant... simply because the elastic definition did not allow for them to believe what their religion teaches.

So therefore, religious intolerance is a never ending opposition. How do we remedy the situation? This is where people fail to come face to face with.

again, an elastic definition of 'religious intolerance' that includes values of social cohesion (however noble) do not take into consideration these caveats of religious belief, and do not allow believers to participate... they are confronted with either being considered religiously intolerant, or they must turn their backs to their religious beliefs.

But does this ever change the nature of God?

one of the big things that i think offends certain religious adherents is to be called 'intolerant.' it is a term that has very strong connotations to it... conjuring up images of racism, *hatred* and ignorance. many religions, again like islam and certain sects of christianity have reasons for having different perspectives on universalism or social cohesion... perspectives which are not the same as those held by society but are hardly inspired by hatred or ignorance. i know for example muslims do not permit daughters to marry outside the faith, and sons, while encouraged to do this only rarely, are allowed to. as i understand this it has to do with the way the family is structured according to their beliefs... not ignorance of what religions are around them, or hatred of those who live near them.

And if it was your children who married people from other religious faiths, would you disown them? I highly doubt that. No loving parent would do that.

but i still think that 'religious intolerance' is elastic and means different things to different people... but it is sad and ironic when we turn the definition of 'religious intolerance' into another shouting match to disrespect each other and stop listening.

I agree sister, but despite the acceptance of religious intolerance, there are still poignant questions many people cannot answer, and simply because they are simply intolerant.

There was a time in my life where I was living in total sin. I failed college, I indulged in drugs, I became a miscreant, and I basically became a slave to every evil desire. There was only one thing I can hang on to that would save me, and that was God.

Despite having a Catholic background, I did have experiences with God. I never said Catholics were devoid of any spirit whatsoever. When I was in 7th grade, my teachers claimed I had a learning disability because my grades were not doing to well. So one day I decided to close my door, and simply pray, and within 3 months my academics excelled. I knew God was with me, and as a Catholic I had faith. I prayed like this for almost 4 years until I started hanging around with the wrong crowd. I stopped prayer, and then began my downfall.

However, the reason why I became saved was because of 2 things: I understood the universal God but most importantly I remembered my experiences in the Catholic faith. My aunt who was a born again Christian brought me to her church, and I became saved. My mom's side of the family became so intolerant to my new faith because they were staunch Catholics. When I was going through hard times, not one of them helped me to get better. Little did they know it was my born again experience with God that changed me. My born again experience had nothing to do with a particular denomination, a church, or a particular religion for that matter.

Again, Catholics are intolerant to Christians and Protestants are also intolerant to Catholics. I do not approve of any sort of intolerance from both sides, and even other religious faiths. That is why I was surprised when you said you were even intolerant to Christians. I may use bible scripture to prove my points verses man-made traditions, but please do not think I am promoting intolerance. You know how I am. If Muslims or other faiths want to debate with me, then I will use their scripture to prove points. With me, it is not my way or the highway.

Peace and God bless you.

 

[universalmessenger]

"but it is sad and ironic when we turn the definition of 'religious intolerance' into another shouting match to disrespect each other and stop listening."

snowbunny answer me this. plz tell me who was yelling @ u in my last thread???

 

[Snowbunny]

So therefore, religious intolerance is a never ending opposition. How do we remedy the situation? This is where people fail to come face to face with.

hola czach8,

i think the remedy is to embrace a better and more consistent definition of religious tolerance... that allows for religious disagreement and does not try to ignore or homogenize religious differences, but rather accepts them as differences.

But does this ever change the nature of God?

no, i believe God's nature is independent of what people believe it is. i also believe He has revealed this as completely as can be determined in Catholic teachings (the Bible, Church, Prophets, Jesus... all of the religion).

but i also recognize that there are people who believe very differently than i do. i do not agree with them, i believe i am right and they are not... but i do not begrudge them or hate them for believing something i consider incorrect.

i also realize that because of their different beliefs, they may desire to approach life much differently than i have chosen to. the Amish are such an example... again i do not hate or begrudge them this... i just think it is incorrect.

And if it was your children who married people from other religious faiths, would you disown them? I highly doubt that. No loving parent would do that.

of course i would not. it is a persons (especially parents) responsibility to help the people they love especially when they make a bad decision. disapproval or forbidding something for your children does not mean you will disown them... at least i am not that kind of parent and i certainly have never met a parent like this.

i broke the rules in my home... not too frequently, but when i did my parents were disappointed but did not disown me...

I agree sister, but despite the acceptance of religious intolerance, there are still poignant questions many people cannot answer, and simply because they are simply intolerant.

There was a time in my life where I was living in total sin. I failed college, I indulged in drugs, I became a miscreant, and I basically became a slave to every evil desire. There was only one thing I can hang on to that would save me, and that was God.

Despite having a Catholic background, I did have experiences with God. I never said Catholics were devoid of any spirit whatsoever. When I was in 7th grade, my teachers claimed I had a learning disability because my grades were not doing to well. So one day I decided to close my door, and simply pray, and within 3 months my academics excelled. I knew God was with me, and as a Catholic I had faith. I prayed like this for almost 4 years until I started hanging around with the wrong crowd. I stopped prayer, and then began my downfall.

However, the reason why I became saved was because of 2 things: I understood the universal God but most importantly I remembered my experiences in the Catholic faith. My aunt who was a born again Christian brought me to her church, and I became saved. My mom's side of the family became so intolerant to my new faith because they were staunch Catholics. When I was going through hard times, not one of them helped me to get better. Little did they know it was my born again experience with Gid that changed me. My born again experience had nothing to do with a particular denomination, a church, or a particular religion for that matter.

Again, Catholics are intolerant to Christians and Protestants are also intolerant to Catholics. I do not approve of any sort of intolerance from both sides, and even other religious faiths. That is why I was surprised when you said you were even intolerant to Christians. I may use bible scripture to prove my points verses man-made traditions, but please do not think I am promoting intolerance. You know how I am. If Muslims or other faiths want to debate with me, then I will use their scripture to prove points. With me, it is not my way or the highway.

Peace and God bless you.

i am very sorry about your experiences... truthfully i cannot relate and cannot pretend i do.

i disagree with your general statements about catholics and protestants. in general church beliefs about the protestants (i think) are fair. the Catechism says this about all people in general:

"All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation"

and this about protestants in general:

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist"

recognizing that all people belong to God, have some kind of relationship to Him, but at the same time reaffirming our belief that the Church is the most directly revealed and perfect source for knowledge of God.

i do not believe this is intolerance of protestants... believing that our beliefs are correct is not intolerant... and recognizing that we have different beliefs is not intolerant.

and i know that many protestant and orthodox christian leaders attended the Vatican II council at the request of the Holy Father. i understand that is a sign of respect and ecumenicism on the part of these non catholic leaders.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Snowbunny]

"but it is sad and ironic when we turn the definition of 'religious intolerance' into another shouting match to disrespect each other and stop listening."

snowbunny answer me this. plz tell me who was yelling @ u in my last thread???

hola universalmessenger

i have been trying to redirect these comments you have posted to me in the last several threads... can we please leave the subject alone? i do not care who started it or why it was started, i am just happy that it stopped. i do not have any desire to continue this disagreement across the forum, and i really think we are having a much cooler and more polite conversation on this thread about the same topic... so why don't you please join in and leave the other issues alone?

gracias

 

[czach8]

i am very sorry about your experiences... truthfully i cannot relate and cannot pretend i do.

Well it was will of God to have me go through these things to be spiritually realized. It was His grace that saved me which is theme for all salvation. Although again, I believe one does not have to be affiliated with a particular religion to be nestled by His grace.

i disagree with your general statements about catholics and protestants. in general church beliefs about the protestants (i think) are fair.

Of course they are fair sister, they are strictly biblical.

the Catechism says this about all people in general:

"All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation"

Was Jesus a Catholic? Did Jesus say one needs to be a Catholic to be saved?

and this about protestants in general:

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist"

So what is more important, body in Christ or body in the Catholic church?

recognizing that all people belong to God, have some kind of relationship to Him, but at the same time reaffirming our belief that the Church is the most directly revealed and perfect source for knowledge of God.

So what is more important, the bible for what is written or the Catholic church for what they written along with it. Also, there are 7 churches in revelation. Which church you believe is attributed to one of those 7 churches?

i do not believe this is intolerance of protestants... believing that our beliefs are correct is not intolerant... and recognizing that we have different beliefs is not intolerant.

Even when some protestants claim the antichrist will be the Catholic church? Would you tolerate such interpretation of scripture. I definitely don't agree with them.

and i know that many protestant and orthodox christian leaders attended the Vatican II council at the request of the Holy Father. i understand that is a sign of respect and ecumenicism on the part of these non catholic leaders.

Knowing that the Pope visited and prayed in the Turkish mosque, would you now tolerate and accept Islamic beliefs?

Peace.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323

You mean the CHRIST-IAN church.
The way that reads, it appears anyone that hasn't been enrolled into the catholic denomination is non-Christian. But that would be for another thread, which in fact has been put up over here concerning "Peter" being the "rock". Peace to you.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5523201-peter-is-not-the-rock.html

1 Peter 4:15 For let, none of you, be suffering as a murderer, or a thief, or an evil-doer, or as one prying into other men's affairs; 16 But, if as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but be glorifying God in this name

 

[elijah115]

So therefore, religious intolerance is a never ending opposition. How do we remedy the situation? This is where people fail to come face to face with.



But does this ever change the nature of God?



And if it was your children who married people from other religious faiths, would you disown them? I highly doubt that. No loving parent would do that.



I agree sister, but despite the acceptance of religious intolerance, there are still poignant questions many people cannot answer, and simply because they are simply intolerant.

There was a time in my life where I was living in total sin. I failed college, I indulged in drugs, I became a miscreant, and I basically became a slave to every evil desire. There was only one thing I can hang on to that would save me, and that was God.

Despite having a Catholic background, I did have experiences with God. I never said Catholics were devoid of any spirit whatsoever. When I was in 7th grade, my teachers claimed I had a learning disability because my grades were not doing to well. So one day I decided to close my door, and simply pray, and within 3 months my academics excelled. I knew God was with me, and as a Catholic I had faith. I prayed like this for almost 4 years until I started hanging around with the wrong crowd. I stopped prayer, and then began my downfall.

However, the reason why I became saved was because of 2 things: I understood the universal God but most importantly I remembered my experiences in the Catholic faith. My aunt who was a born again Christian brought me to her church, and I became saved. My mom's side of the family became so intolerant to my new faith because they were staunch Catholics. When I was going through hard times, not one of them helped me to get better. Little did they know it was my born again experience with God that changed me. My born again experience had nothing to do with a particular denomination, a church, or a particular religion for that matter.

Again, Catholics are intolerant to Christians and Protestants are also intolerant to Catholics. I do not approve of any sort of intolerance from both sides, and even other religious faiths. That is why I was surprised when you said you were even intolerant to Christians. I may use bible scripture to prove my points verses man-made traditions, but please do not think I am promoting intolerance. You know how I am. If Muslims or other faiths want to debate with me, then I will use their scripture to prove points. With me, it is not my way or the highway.

Peace and God bless you.

Yesterday, all the churches (of every denomination, c100) in my borough (in the UK) got together to pray for our borough. We have this kind of meeting 3 times a year.