Paula White, Juanita Bynum and the "New Wave' of Female Preachers

[Daedalus]

J.A.I
God be with you; speaking to God is not something everybody does.
Think caefully who you speak to.
In a book about confession, I've seen testimonies of people (expecially monks) who were visited by angels of light (I believe by the word converation you mean inspiration and not a real conversation by anyway).
To one of them, "Jesus" himself apeared and told him : "Come forth, I am your lord, come and worship me"; the monk realised what that ment, and told him "I worship my Lord every day, but I am unworthy to see Him in this life" and the vision was gone.
I'm not saying it's the same in your case, I don't know, and I don't know you, and I'm not entitled to say who is speaking to you.
Remember, God speaks thorugh profets, at crucial time, and not whenever we feel like so (they have Moses and the profets....).
Be carefull what you say is God's will, because you're not really entitle to say this and that is God's will; plus you enter a dangerous and vicious circle -- there is no room for reasoning when you say it's God's will to do this and that.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The charismatics believe that God can reveal himself in new ways even if those revelations are in opposition to some scriptures, in which case they take a couple "proof" texts to show that their new interpretation is biblical, but disregard any scriptures that disagree. ...

The modern theory of "strict contextualism" when applied to the NT teaching of Jesus, Paul, Peter, and others tends to fall flat on it's face. The shocking reality is that the vast majority of OT text quoted by Jesus, Paul and the rest in fact appears to be taken completely out of context! The rule in the NT is that text quoted from the OT is almost always done in the "proof text" mode.

 

[rhemarob]

The charismatics believe that God can reveal himself in new ways even if those revelations are in opposition to some scriptures, in which case they take a couple "proof" texts to show that their new interpretation is biblical, but disregard any scriptures that disagree.

Seems like you paint all charismatics with a wide brush.
I am a Rhema student and nobody believes in new revelation more than we do and we have always been taught that if a revelation or prophecy doesn't line up with the Bible then it should be rejected.
I can't speak for Paula White or any other charismatic organizations but to characterize all charismatics in that context is a little unfair.

 

[Daedalus]

The modern theory of "strict contextualism" when applied to the NT teaching of Jesus, Paul, Peter, and others tends to fall flat on it's face. The shocking reality is that the vast majority of OT text quoted by Jesus, Paul and the rest in fact appears to be taken completely out of context! The rule in the NT is that text quoted from the OT is almost always done in the "proof text" mode.

Ummm.... it's because it's about the Christ and not truths.
They generally are taken from the Psalms and Isaiah.
They weren't teaching anything from the quotes they were using, but showing signs of the Christ.

I would also be happy if you pointed out those references and not just say they did; that's the way things should go.

 

[vanshan]

Seems like you paint all charismatics with a wide brush.
I am a Rhema student and nobody believes in new revelation more than we do and we have always been taught that if a revelation or prophecy doesn't line up with the Bible then it should be rejected.
I can't speak for Paula White or any other charismatic organizations but to characterize all charismatics in that context is a little unfair.

All the denominations believe they are biblically based; however, as you know, they sometimes teach very different things. To be fair this isn't just a problem with charimatics, it is a problem with anyone who removes the Bible and its message from the historical context in which it was written.

We should be very careful when we come up with teachings that are new. What are the chances that we today know more than the early Christians who came in direct contact with Christ and the Apostles? If it's the Holy Spirit leading us, He will guide us into all the truth and not teach us things that are new and contrary to scripture. God has not changed. There are so many verses that speak of us sharing in Christ's suffering and not receiving our reward in this life. How do Rhema students and charismatics openly ignore this part of Jesus' message? I have never heard these scriptures quoted at the several different charismatic churches I have attended or by any evangelists on TV. This is all I meant by picking and choosing verses that seem to support their interpetation of the Bible. I don't think charismatics are getting the whole story.

Basil.

 

[SumTinWong]

We should be very careful when we come up with teachings that are new. What are the chances that we today know more than the early Christians who came in direct contact with Christ and the Apostles? If it's the Holy Spirit leading us, He will guide us into all the truth and not teach us things that are new and contrary to scripture. God has not changed. There are so many verses that speak of us sharing in Christ's suffering and not receiving our reward in this life. How do Rhema students and charismatics openly ignore this part of Jesus' message? I have never heard these scriptures quoted at the several different charismatic churches I have attended or by any evangelists on TV. This is all I meant by picking and choosing verses that seem to support their interpetation of the Bible. I don't think charismatics are getting the whole story.

Basil.

Basil I agree with you. 99% anyway.

I get very tired of reading or hearing the prosperity gospel when it speaks of money, or even worldly happiness. If it was all about us then yes, God should be an ATM (Automated Teller Machine for those of you who do not know) for us with an unlimited balance. Or there are those that treat God as if He were a slot machine and their prayers are nickels. With each one they are hoping for a jackpot.

If that was true how then do we explain what happend with every Apostle (with the exception of John-who died normally but from legend says he was burned in oil anyway) who met with a most times horrifying death? Do we suppose that we should have it better than they? I think not. Our own Lord, a sinless man, God incarnate, was slaughtered on a cross. Why should we have it any better?

Personally I think God is showing great restraint with some of these "name it and claim it" types who believe that just by reciting the Bible over and over again, God will grant their wishes and whims. Sorry but in that case doesn't God become a genie and aren't we replacing the magic lamp with the Bible?

God does love us and God will provide for us. Those are facts. But God does not pop up at our every whim and say presto there you go.

Jesus said in John 16:33 "I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world."

The prosperity/peace that Jesus spoke of was a spiritual renewal, not a physical renewal. We are now released from the bondage of sin and death because we have in fact accepted that once and for all sacrafice of Jesus the Christ. We were bound for hell (and rightly so), and God in His infinite and unexplainable mercy and grace snatched us from the sinking sand that we willingly waded in to. We were on our way to eternity without God and anything good, but Jesus (God incarnate) saved us and wanted us to know this: John chapter 17:23 "I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me."

Do we see that? God loves us as much as He loved Jesus. So if you stretch it out, God loves us as much as He loves Himself. So much so that He died to get us into His family so we could spend eternity with Him.

What more could we want folks? A new car, money in the bank? Why do we store up on this earth things that will fade away? Why don't we collect things in heaven, that will never fade? It baffles my mind.

Now Basil, why I said that I only agree with you 99% is because you made a generalization (about charasmatic and rhema students openly ignoring scriptures) based on a few people that you see on TV and services that you have attended. I dare say that not everyone is like what both you and I have seen.

Yes there are some that are picking and choosing scriptures and they are very obvious in their approaches as they love to refer to "seed and harvest" time and so on. And I would dare say you are right that there are a great many churches and TV Preachers that are trying to lay out the feel good message in hopes of packing them in each Sunday or to get new airplanes to "further the message" of God.

But not everyone is like that. I grew up in a church that was NOT like that and they were Holy Rolling Pentecostals. We learned so much about the Bible and our pastor did not skip a beat or soft sell anyone. I would not begin to say that he is the norm, but if there is one exception...

I am at a Baptist Church now, but only because I felt led by God to be here, and as you can tell I am not one of the uninformed, who think that it is "all good" and that I am on easy street now. Life is hard.

And last but not least every church has been and is guilty of interpreting verses the way they want to (like you said basically). One might say no my church has been faithful to scripture, but so would anyone else that is defending their faith or their doctrine. We could go back and look at history if anyone would like but I am sure you all know what I mean by that.

 

[vanshan]

Now Basil, why I said that I only agree with you 99% is because you made a generalization (about charasmatic and rhema students openly ignoring scriptures) based on a few people that you see on TV and services that you have attended. I dare say that not everyone is like what both you and I have seen.

Yes there are some that are picking and choosing scriptures and they are very obvious in their approaches as they love to refer to "seed and harvest" time and so on. And I would dare say you are right that there are a great many churches and TV Preachers that are trying to lay out the feel good message in hopes of packing them in each Sunday or to get new airplanes to "further the message" of God.

But not everyone is like that. I grew up in a church that was NOT like that and they were Holy Rolling Pentecostals. We learned so much about the Bible and our pastor did not skip a beat or soft sell anyone. I would not begin to say that he is the norm, but if there is one exception...

I am at a Baptist Church now, but only because I felt led by God to be here, and as you can tell I am not one of the uninformed, who think that it is "all good" and that I am on easy street now. Life is hard.

And last but not least every church has been and is guilty of interpreting verses the way they want to (like you said basically). One might say no my church has been faithful to scripture, but so would anyone else that is defending their faith or their doctrine. We could go back and look at history if anyone would like but I am sure you all know what I mean by that.

You and I are examples that there are some within the charismatic movement that do take a more balanced approach to scripture. So point taken. Maybe we 100% agree now.

The key points hammered week after week seem to revolve around what God can do for you, rather than what sacrifices you can make to serve Christ. My main criticism is that if we use temporal riches and rewards to motivate us to serve Christ, are we truly serving Christ, or ourselves?

Basil

 

[J.A.I]

I attend a Charismatic church and have for the past few years attended Charismatic churches. What we teach is not based on what God can do for us. It's always, ALWAYS based on what we should be doing for God.

Don't generalize Charismatic churches. There's a bigger world out there besides the FEW things you have seen.

 

[vanshan]

J.A.I., do you sing? I see all the photos of you with a guitar looking sharp.

 

[J.A.I]

Yes I play guitar and I sing and songwrite.. I guess that makes me a musician....

 

[SumTinWong]

are we truly serving Christ, or ourselves?

The answer is obviously we are serving ourselves. I think if we go back to even the garden of eden, and look at Eve. She was enticed by the idea of being like God. If we are truthful with ourselves there are so many similarities between what she wanted, and what we want to pray for everyday. Sometimes we do it even without knowing it. We pray for health and wealth (to varying degrees anyway) and God Himself said to humble ourselves before Him and He will lift us up. We want to skip the humble part and just be lifted (hence wanting to be God). We tend think or feel that because God loves us so much that we deserve more.

What else could God give us more precious then Himself? Didn't Jesus say the least of us would be the greatest? Imagine if people actually took that to heart and tried to out do each other with good works...

And I agree with JAI(and I know you do as well). I think we ought to be careful and not to judge charismatic Christians by the more charismatic TV evangelists. That would be like judging all baptists by reverend phelps (the God hates homosexuals/americans guy) and those clan folks that were part of the church. Sometimes these people on TV just present a case for what hungry ears want to hear, so are the preachers to blame or the people that support them?

"Hey folks I have a sure fire way to get you prayers answered and if you truly do it and believe with your whole heart it will happen, it will happen...For $29.95 I will send you my cd called 'God will bless you'..."

The truth of the matter is God is sovereign, and He will show mercy to whom He shows mercy... Exodus 33:19 & John 21:22

Look if you want to pray everyday, and you really want to know that God hears you, say this prayer that is bound to get His attention (in my opinion).

Your will be done, Amen.

Completely take yourself out of it. Imagine the humility it would take to say "okay God I know this opens up things that might make me feel uncomfortable, or even kill me but what ever you decide is best." That is what the Apostles did and that is what the Lords' Prayer says(in effect anyway).

So try that prayer for a few months, and take the money you would have sent to the TV guys and gals and give it to that neighbor that is trying to make ends meet, or is living in a cardboard box right on your block.

Sorry if I put all charsmatics in any bad light J.A.I. that wasn't my intention. Peace.

We are waaaaaaaaay off topic here...

 

[12volt_man]

How many of you heard of the new rising star of ministry, Paula White, who comes out of Florida?

A "rising star of ministry"? Isn't this an oxymoron? I thought the whole point of ministry was to point to Christ, not to be a star.

She is a prominent pastor who speak in many conventions and her close freind in the gospel is Bishop T.D. Jakes, who is also her pastor.

If she doesn't have the discernment to get out from under T.D. Jakes, then she's not worth listening to.

Then we have Prophetess Juanita Byumn who is also prominent in christian circles who also preaches prosperity.

Yes, she's part of the WoF movement, which means that we should stay away.

What do you think about the "new wave" of women preachers?

So far, not much.

 

[missprayerwarrior]

After reading the numerous pages of posts.. I've decided that people translate the bible many different ways.

I believe women can preach. To be honest, I have been called to preach.. and I am a female. Who is to say that God wouldn't use women for His kingdom? If He uses men.. why couldn't He use women? There are many women discussed in the Bible that had leadership roles.

I've done quite a bit of study on several scripture references that say women can't preach. To make a long story short.. you have to read into it. You have to consider the time period it was written in, the people it was written to, and things of the sort. I recommend that anyone questioning it.. take a look at the verses in Greek and Hebrew. Most of the words are referring to WIVES not being more in command than their HUSBANDS. Not women in general.. and men in general.

Just my thoughts..

 

[plmarquette]

Hermeneutics ... the book of hoyle for the book ...
at that time and in that (male centered) culture , women preachers were an issue ... akin to Paul citing that women should have their heads covered , for at that time women without a veil or with short hair were prostitutes ...

in this day and age ....
what is wrong with women ministering to women and men minstering to men ?

what is wrong with a woman standing up and declaring the truth of the gospel ... look at the women cited in the epistles of Paul ...

 

[WarEagle]

I agree with those who say that the word of God is being dishonored, but not just because they're women.

If you look at the doctrines they're preaching and the things they're doing and compare them with scripture, they're false teachers and are terrible at exegeting the word of God.

 

[mont974x4]

How many of you heard of the new rising star of ministry, Paula White, who comes out of Florida?
She is a prominent pastor who speak in many conventions and her close freind in the gospel is Bishop T.D. Jakes, who is also her pastor.

Then we have Prophetess Juanita Byumn who is also prominent in christian circles who also preaches prosperity.

What do you think about the "new wave" of women preachers?

I think it's wrong, sad, and dangerous.

 

[missprayerwarrior]

I have actually heard Paula White speak before.. in person.. and she presented a very good sermon.

I also had the opportunity to meet this woman of God.. and her heart is definitely in the right place.

 

[EraseTheHate]

Can women be preachers? I thought that a preacher has to be the husband of one wife.... oh wait, I guess they could be gay women preachers or something like that ....

 

[WarEagle]

I have actually heard Paula White speak before.. in person.. and she presented a very good sermon.

I also had the opportunity to meet this woman of God.. and her heart is definitely in the right place.

But her doctrine is an Unbiblical trainwreck.

 

[missprayerwarrior]

But her doctrine is an Unbiblical trainwreck.

explain yourself.. what part of her doctrine is an "unbiblical trainwreck" ..