Paula White, Juanita Bynum and the "New Wave' of Female Preachers

[hockeysistah234]

How many of you heard of the new rising star of ministry, Paula White, who comes out of Florida?
She is a prominent pastor who speak in many conventions and her close freind in the gospel is Bishop T.D. Jakes, who is also her pastor.

Then we have Prophetess Juanita Byumn who is also prominent in christian circles who also preaches prosperity.

What do you think about the "new wave" of women preachers?

 

[eutychus]

What do you think about the "new wave" of women preachers?

"Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored." Titus 2:3-5

I think the word of God is being dishonored.

 

[blackwasp]

"Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored." Titus 2:3-5

I think the word of God is being dishonored.

Agreed.

 

[TasManOfGod]

We all as one submit to Christ because He first loved us and died for us. In a good marriage the woman is subjct to the man because his love for her would also be unto death.
The mistake we make is that we try to take what applies to a woman in marriage and apply it to women in the Church - the two are different
Now when it comes to a bishop (pastor) being the "husband of one woman" etc. this is a character reference / social safeguard issue - not a law. (Not only does it omit women in that instance but also single men)

 

[J.A.I]

We all as one submit to Christ because He first loved us and died for us. In a good marriage the woman is subjct to the man because his love for her would also be unto death.
The mistake we make is that we try to take what applies to a woman in marriage and apply it to women in the Church - the two are different
Now when it comes to a bishop (pastor) being the "husband of one woman" etc. this is a character reference / social safeguard issue - not a law. (Not only does it omit women in that instance but also single men)

I agree.

And I don't think God is being dishonored at all.

 

[christian-only]

1 Cor 14:35 "...it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

If a woman is going to preach, let her preach this!

(oh, wait, she can't do that without violating it )

 

[TasManOfGod]

1 Cor 14:35 "...it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

If a woman is going to preach, let her preach this!

(oh, wait, she can't do that without violating it )

You have no idea whatsoever what that scripture is referring to have you ?

 

[christian-only]

You have no idea whatsoever what that scripture is referring to have you ?

Well, lets see: 1 Cor 14:35 "...it is a shame for women to speak in the church." Hmmmm....I don't have a theological degree from Rocket Science University, but I think it's referring to women speaking in the church. Now, EVEN IF (and it's a big IF) the verse preceding was only refering to specific women when it said "Let your women...," THIS verse's saying "it is a shame for women to speak in the church" applies to ALL women across the board, and if anyone denies this, Paul says, "let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." Now, I grant you that the older women are to teach the younger, but NOT in the church.

 

[J.A.I]

As I understand it, those scriptures were addressing women at that time in that church b/c there was an issue w/the behavior of the women.

Let us do the whole verse:
1 Corinthians 14:35 MKJV
(35) And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for a woman to speak in a church.

Questions for you.
If the man and woman are unequally yoked, and the wife becomes a believer after their marriage..... whom does she ask questions to ? Lo, not her husband for he is not saved, yet... whom will help her w/her walk in Christ ? If she can't ask questions at the church, she surely can't ask her husband who is a nonbeliever

I mean, we have to look at scripture from all sides.

1 Corinthians 14:34 MKJV
(34) Let your women be silent in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as the Law also says.

Your women... He didn't say THE women. He said YOUR, therefore, in my opinion, your means wives. If he said THE, then that changes the whole verse. Using the word 'your' makes the women a possession, therefore meaning they belong to someone... the husbands.

Now there is a breakdown on whether single women or married women can preach. As with most scripture, this is a debate.

But... what about Phoebe ?

Romans 16:1-2 MKJV
(1) I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea,
(2) that you receive her in the Lord, as becomes saints, and that you may assist her in whatever business she has need of you. For she has been a helper of many, and of myself also.

Phoebe... a female obviously In my opinion, it looks as though she is a leader.. she's even helped Paul. Some would argue she was a co-minister of the gospel w/Paul... After all Priscilla and Aquila were co-laborers and were husband and wife.

You see, it is all very debatable, this I understand.

I do find it interesting enough, however, that the main ones who have problems w/female pastors / preachers are.... men.

I have been called into the ministry of preaching... If need be, I sure would preach 1 Cor 14:35 in a heartbeat.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 CEV
(33) God wants everything to be done peacefully and in order. When God's people meet in church,
(34) the women must not be allowed to speak. They must keep quiet and listen, as the Law of Moses teaches.
(35) If there is something they want to know, they can ask their husbands when they get home. It is disgraceful for women to speak in church.

I could pull so much from that if need be.

Also, the translations we see now... I mean, to be honest, KJV isn't the original. Paul, James, and so on didn't speak in thees and thous. They spoke in Hebrew, Aramaic, and so on. If we want to REALLY learn what the deal is, we will learn those languages and then read the original sciptures as the translation from original language has changed the scipture a bit.

It is like saying...

El cielo grande. It translates to english as "The Sky Big".. it doesn't translate word for word. The setup is different, as it was with the languages used at those times in comparison with the English (or Old English) language.

 

[J.A.I]

1 Corinthians 14:34 MKJV
(34) Let your women be silent in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as the Law also says.

The Law... I understand this to be the Law of Moses.

Shall we all follow that law, even though that old covenant was replaced with the new covenant which is the bloodshed of Jesus Christ ?

And also, as far as if it refers to a law of the land.

A)Do you follow all laws of the land NOW ? Speeding, certain ordinances, etc ?

and

B)Back then, it was not permissible for women to carry themselves in a certain manner, so yes they were to hold to the Law. Does that law still remain today ?

 

[TasManOfGod]

Tell me this - If you took your wife to church and she spent the whole time chatting to your friends wife - the next thing a few more of your friends wives joined in all talking about changing diapers, bargains at the supermarket, and things generally not pertaining to the word of God- Would you think it not a bad thing if meek and mild pastor advised the sweet ladies not to speak in church - I think so and I dont think I would misunderstand exactly where he was coming from either.

 

[christian-only]

In the Bible the word church is used in two ways (1) the collection of believers (2) the worship assembly. First, It is obvious that this is refering to the worship assembly. Second, It is obvious that women talking about diapers in the building (which is not the church) are not "usurping authority over a man." (1 Tim 2:12) "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

 

[J.A.I]

christian-only ~ I will restate = Those scriptures (the letter) was written to a particular crowd. I suggest you look at the original scriptures.

 

[christian-only]

christian-only ~ I will restate = Those scriptures (the letter) was written to a particular crowd. I suggest you look at the original scriptures.

So you are saying that the statement "For Adam was first formed, then Eve" applies only to certain people? How can that be since it is simply a HISTORICAL FACT?

 

[J.A.I]

christian-only ~ Now, you know that is not what I meant. The letter in which Paul wrote about the women was written to that church at that time. The women were, as I understand it, uneducated, and not permitted to learn. We all know that is not the case now.

You should read the original scriptures, not the English translations, and study the culture of that time as well.

 

[Daedalus]

There are many reasons a woman should not preach in a church.
I will first say though, I see no reason a woman shouldn't spread the word of Christ outside the chruch, to non-believers, direct them to church.
Now, the reasons are some of these (perhaps more I don't know of):
-Eve was the one who made Adam sin (it was Adam who sinned but Eve who made him sin )
-it is by the old law and the new law, literrally, forbittened that any human blood to be shed in the house of God (the church) -- women in orthodox churches are still adviced not to enter the church in a particular time of the month. It is a literal interprepation.
- God throughout the history chose to send his message through men ; sometimes through women, but very, very rarely.
If Jesus wanted women to spread His word, He would have chosen some as his apostoles but He did not do so.

So, don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against women, but preaching in the church is forbitened.
There are exeptions and I know about it.
I know that nuns in nun monasteries read the bible loudly, say prayers loudly -- there is nothing wrong with that. But they never preach, and speak for themselves, they don't say their opinion, but say what a holy book says; when it comes to confession only a priest may do that.
Further more, the gratest of the saints is the Virgin Mary, that is what the ortodox chruch says anyway.
So we don't have anything against women, not anything against women education, but we obey the law and customs the early church gave us, the laws Jesus Christ approved to.

 

[J.A.I]

That sounds so sexist!

I know that nuns in nun monasteries read the bible loudly, say prayers loudly -- there is nothing wrong with that. But they never preach, and speak for themselves, they don't say their opinion, but say what a holy book says; when it comes to confession only a priest may do that.

it was Adam who sinned but Eve who made him sin

First, let me say that NO ONE MAKES ANYONE SIN. When you sin, that is your conscious decision to sin. Eve didn't MAKE Adam eat the apple. He made that conscious decision to eat that apple.

Next, may I say, God created women to be a partner to men, hence the reason He made woman from man's SIDE. We are allowed to speak our minds. As far as the issue w/confession, I have my own reservations about that and will keep them to myself for now, but any man or woman can come to God and confess their sins to Him. I will not have some man do that for me, when that man is not the one who sinned. It is ME who sinned. It is MY relationship w/Jesus Christ, not some 'man'.

-it is by the old law and the new law, literrally, forbittened that any human blood to be shed in the house of God (the church) -- women in orthodox churches are still adviced not to enter the church in a particular time of the month. It is a literal interprepation.

To me, that sounds ridiculous. This isn't Biblically supported in scripture. Not letting a woman attend church when she is on her period... wow.

God throughout the history chose to send his message through men ; sometimes through women, but very, very rarely.
If Jesus wanted women to spread His word, He would have chosen some as his apostoles but He did not do so.

Not as rare as you think. I can name 10 off the top of my head.

So, don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against women, but preaching in the church is forbitened.

No, it is not forbidden.

Further more, the gratest of the saints is the Virgin Mary, that is what the ortodox chruch says anyway.

I don't worship Mary so that isn't relative to me.... Jesus is the One who died for me.

1 Corinthians 1:12-13 GW
[ 12 ] This is what I mean: Each of you is saying, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ."
[ 13 ] Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in Paul's name?

 

[Daedalus]

Well
I was expecting that sort of an answer.
First of all, it was also kind of a trap I layed
Men are not allowed to express their views as well
Orthodox church doesn't have rock music and people saying how "cool" Jesus is and why they think so. That is because we believe there were people more enlightened (meaning full of the holy spirit) that explained the bible.

By making to sin, I ment to tempt and btw.... Adam didn't yet knew the difrence between good and evil because he didn't eat from the apple; Even knew (she took a bite remember )and that's why I said she made him do it.
She knew the difrence between good and evil and still dragged Adam to do it.

About the period thing.... just read the bible once again and you'll see.
Mary lived in the temple untill the age of 12 and we know above that age she could not stay any longer because of her period.
So it is biblical.
You shouldn't enter the church for many other reasons such as being unclean -- should it be understood as dirty or with impure thoughts;
You shouldn't enter the church if you are mad at someone unless you ask for forgiveness to that person first.
That is the orthodox way, not just words; we mean everything we speak because we act acordingly.
So it's not sexist that women shouldn't enter the church on period, because man can't enter as well for a multitude of reaons; besides in the cases I showend abve, they shouldn't enter, there's no one checking them .


"I don't worship Mary so that isn't relative to me.... Jesus is the One who died for me."

So tipical for the new sects.
I don't worship Mary, nor does the Orthodox or Catholic church.
She is a holy woman, and I showed you how she was above the saints.
So don't make me acountable for words I have not spoken.
Remember however Jesus was both man and God, and as a man, he wouldn't have liked it if someone spoke bad things about His morhter -- I'm not saying you did, just as an advice.

The apostoles died for Christ's name and for my sake also; don't mock them and don't missuese bible verses.
Their death is documented and it helps me believe that people wouldn't give their life for a lie; it hardens my belife.

 

[J.A.I]

First of all, it was also kind of a trap I layed.

Jesus didn't lay traps......

Psalms 141:9 MKJV
[ 9 ] Keep me from the traps which they have laid for me, and the snares of the workers of evil.

Orthodox church doesn't have rock music and people saying how "cool" Jesus is and why they think so. That is because we believe there were people more enlightened (meaning full of the holy spirit) that explained the bible.

Well good for you guys. Different strokes for different folks. I praise God in the manner I see fit and the manner that pleases Him. For me to try to do something else just b/c someone else tells me to is not true praise, reverence, and worship. It starts in the heart.

No church is the final authority for me and never will be.

She knew the difrence between good and evil and still dragged Adam to do it.

Adam knew God said no.
Genesis 2:16-17 MKJV
[ 16 ] And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree in the garden,
[ 17 ] but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Adam knew God said no, so he made that decision fully aware of what God said. Don't blame it on the woman. They both knew that God said no.

About the period thing.... just read the bible once again and you'll see.
Mary lived in the temple untill the age of 12 and we know above that age she could not stay any longer because of her period.
So it is biblical.

That is REALLY reaching. It does not say that anywhere in the Bible. Scripture references are definitely needed to support that reasoning.

"I don't worship Mary so that isn't relative to me.... Jesus is the One who died for me."

So tipical for the new sects.
I don't worship Mary, nor does the Orthodox or Catholic church.
She is a holy woman, and I showed you how she was above the saints.
So don't make me acountable for words I have not spoken.
Remember however Jesus was both man and God, and as a man, he wouldn't have liked it if someone spoke bad things about His morhter -- I'm not saying you did, just as an advice.

I never disrespected any of the people mentioned in the Bible that were in Jesus' direct lineage. But I don't pray to or worship Mary, Paul, or anyone else. The Bible doesn't teach me that. It teaches me about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And that 'new sect' stuff... I don't really believe in the sect stuff. I first and foremost follow Jesus Christ and the Bible. Other than that, I rely on the Holy Spirit and God for my leadership.. and when He sends people my way, it is confirmed by the Holy Spirit. You won't find me saying, "Well my church says this and this is right"... No. Because the church is fallible just as man is.

don't mock them and don't missuese bible verses.

I don't do that

 

[Daedalus]

1. "Kind of a trap" -- because I didn't do it on pourpose
I would say more on that, but I would be missunderstood -- Jesus said to the apostoles that He would make them fishermen of souls.
It's not a trap as you know it, but fishermen use traps to catch the fish.
I didn't try to decieve you, but to show you were you were wrong.
So the psalm quote does not apply .
You were right though, to react like that because the word trap usually referes to something evil; it's a stereotipe.

Sure Adam knew what God asked him, but if he didn't knew the difrence between good and evil, the evil that came through someone who he loved and trusted was eassier to convince him.
My point was in suport of the view of people who blamed Eve more than Adam (both sinned ) because she knew what she was doing and betrayed Adam so that she would not be the only one who has sinned.

I don't remember whether I read the thing about girls in the temple, but it's true, the authority is the orthodox church (I read it in an orthodox book), but you can surely document that practice -- that girls lived in the temple and prepared food and helped maintain the temple; they left at the age of 12.
Mary was an extraordinary girl, and that is why the temple priests apointed Joseph to take care of her, because Josehp was an old man, and because Mary had a virginity vow; but they couldn't keep her in the temple after the age of 12.
That's what the Orthodox and Catholic church will tell you, with more facts or just holy tradition.

About girls leaving at the age of 12 that you should ask any specialist in judaic law; anything will do and I'm sure there are a lot of jewish documents atesting that.

I didn't come up with the age of 12.
You can see the age of 12 is the age of majority for girls and the age of 13 for boys.