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Evoltuion: Fact or Theory

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Digit

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Heyas,

For those who believe in evolution do you consider evolution to be a fact, or a theory, and why do you think it is that for you?

You can explain your view further should you wish, for example talking about micro/macro, or why you feel micro/macro is a bad view or whatever.

Thanks for any input!
Cheers,

Digit
 

Jadis40

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Heyas,

For those who believe in evolution do you consider evolution to be a fact, or a theory, and why do you think it is that for you?

You can explain your view further should you wish, for example talking about micro/macro, or why you feel micro/macro is a bad view or whatever.

Thanks for any input!
Cheers,

Digit

Evolution is definitely a fact. All one needs to do to get a sense of the scope of evolution's importance in science today is to go to http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/ and enter a search on evolution. I did that just a few seconds ago, and it returned over 80,000 articles.

The most basic definition of evolution, from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

evolution is the change in the inherited traits of a population from generation to generation. These traits are the expression of genes that are copied and passed on to offspring during reproduction. Mutations, and other random changes in these genes, can produce new or altered traits, resulting in heritable differences (genetic variation) between organisms. New traits can also come from transfer of genes between populations, as in migration or horizontal gene transfer. Evolution occurs when these heritable differences become more common or rare in a population, either nonrandomly through natural selection or randomly through genetic drift.

Everything we know about genetics and cellular and molecular biology for two examples is based on evolution.

And there's this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_evolution

Molecular evolution is the process of evolution at the scale of DNA, RNA, and proteins. Molecular evolution emerged as a scientific field in the 1960's as researchers from molecular biology, evolutionary biology and population genetics sought to understand recent discoveries on the structure and function of nucleic acids and protein.

I think there are a lot of people who instantly make the mental leap thinking evolution means that one species changed from one to another. What is actually happening, based on my very limited understanding, is that various traits begin to manifest due to mutations or genetic drift or change in allele frequency so that variations within the same species result in different traits. That's what Darwin was talking about when he noticed all the different types of finches. It's also the point made in the first quote from wikipedia I included.
 
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notto

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It is both.

Fact: Life in the past was much different then life today. This change occurred over time from one species to another related species as evidenced by the progression of forms in the fossil record and the related genetics we have discovered.

Theory: The mechanisms that causes this change was random genetic mutation followed by natural selection leading to speciation and extinction.

Evolution is both a fact and a theory. The use of the terms the way you use them is a bit improper. A fact is a piece of evidence. A theory is a prediction supported by evidence or an explanation of evidence we find

Just like gravity

Fact: bodies with mass are attracted to each other.
Theory: ??? What 'causes' gravity? There are several theories on this. Not knowing for sure doesn't change the fact of gravity just like not having a perfect theory of evolution doesn't make the fossils and the facts they show go away.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

There is no scientific doubt that evolution happened. What is being worked on is the specifics of the mechanisms that caused it and the details of its pace and effects.
 
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Digit

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Right, thanks for the replies so far. I find these kind of topics helpful as it gives a sense of people's views, and their basis for them, as well as what exactly it is they believe in, as it seems everyone has a particular kind of definition for something, and often when you think you are on common ground, there is a rocky path in previous conversations which has jolted you on different courses. :)

To follow: Do you consider punctuated equilibrium viable? If I understand correctly, it seems that Darwin's theory completely hings on timeframe. You take away the millions of years, and you get problems. Hence punctuated equilibrium.

In addition, am I understand that TEs essentially believe in molecules to man evolution? Or is there more to it?

Digit
 
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Digit

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The thread title shows a lack of understanding of "theory" as used by scientists. To help understanding, do schools teach the theory of gravity or the fact of gravity?
Ironically, your post serves to highlight your lack of understanding of the definition of "theory". I felt that anyone could read the title and discern that I am asking if you feel evolution is a proven fact, or if you believe it's a good theory of our origins.

I think this is one of the reasons it's difficult to get anywhere here, is because people, myself included, are so caught up being right, it's hard to just talk about things.

Now, I posted this question, as I wish to determine how posters here view this. Perhaps, they think it's a fact, as solid as saying water is wet or snow is cold to the touch. Perhaps they think it's a theory, a very viable explanation of our origins. I've spoken to many people who come from both lines of thinking.

Digit
 
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gluadys

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Heyas,

For those who believe in evolution do you consider evolution to be a fact, or a theory, and why do you think it is that for you?

You can explain your view further should you wish, for example talking about micro/macro, or why you feel micro/macro is a bad view or whatever.

Thanks for any input!
Cheers,

Digit

I agree that evolution is both fact and theory. Another helpful concept is "pathways of evolution" which studies the actual route that evolution has taken in different lineages through history. It is through tracing such pathways that scientists gain an understanding of where they meet in common ancestors.

To follow: Do you consider punctuated equilibrium viable? If I understand correctly, it seems that Darwin's theory completely hings on timeframe. You take away the millions of years, and you get problems. Hence punctuated equilibrium.

Actually,punctuated equilibrium requires millions of years too, as it requires long ages of stasis between punctuations. The times of stasis (little to no apparent evolutionary change) are the "equilibrium" part of punk eek which are punctuated from time to time by bursts of fairly rapid evolution.

The real key difference between classic Darwinism and punk eek is not time-frame. Classic Darwinism emphasizes "phyletic gradualism: i.e. the gradual transformation of a species into a new species without breaking the population into sub-groups. Punctuated equilibrium emphasizes "cladistic speciation" in which the key transformations occur in isolated sub-populations of the species after which the parent population is replaced by the new form through migration. In the fossil record, this gives the effect of a sudden jump from one form to another, although if you find the point of origin of the new form, you find the intermediate forms of transition.

It is now agreed that both phyletic gradualism and punctuated equilibrium play a significant role in evolution.

In addition, am I understand that TEs essentially believe in molecules to man evolution?

No. Evolution as a biological concept only comes into play with the origin of life which is a long, long time after the origin of molecules.

Also evolution does not aim to produce humanity. There is no trend in evolution toward humanity in particular, nor any reason to think humanity is a stopping point for evolution either.

An important concept in evolution is that all species on earth are equally evolved. Bacteria have been evolving just as long as vertebrates (in fact longer) and have diversified even more. Stephen Gould used to say that humanity is just one leaf on an evolutionary bush with many branches and many leaves.
 
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theIdi0t

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Heyas,

For those who believe in evolution do you consider evolution to be a fact, or a theory, and why do you think it is that for you?

I think the problem here is that you have a misunderstanding of what theory means in the sciences. A theory in science does not become a fact. But let's allow Ken Miller to provide the explanation:

"Evolution is both a theory and a fact. It is a fact that living things in the past were different from living things today and that the life of the past changed, or evolved, to produce the life of the present. Recent news reports the discovery of a new mammalian fossil in China that has a small dinosaur in its stomach. This fossil is a fact -- clear evidence that some early mammals were able to prey upon dinosaurs, at least little ones. And it is just one of millions of fossils that support the fact that life has changed over time, the fact of evolution.

How did that change take place? That's exactly the question that evolutionary theory attempts to answer. Theories in science don't become facts -- rather, theories explain facts. Evolutionary theory is a comprehensive explanation of change supported by the facts of natural history, genetics, and molecular biology."

Got it? Good.
 
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Digit

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Heya Gluadys, thanks so much for the reply. :)

I agree that evolution is both fact and theory. Another helpful concept is "pathways of evolution" which studies the actual route that evolution has taken in different lineages through history. It is through tracing such pathways that scientists gain an understanding of where they meet in common ancestors.
My question here is, is there only 1 common ancestor? For example, we trace pathways all the way back (I assume that the image of this resembles roots of a tree, starting at one place -the trunk- and then branching out... or... branches of a tree, basically a tree)

The trunk being the common ancestor, and then the branches leading to specific species, and then sub-branches to deviations in that species and so on. Essentially though, each branch has one common ancestor, ie all dogs came from the first dog and so on? Is that right?


Actually,punctuated equilibrium requires millions of years too, as it requires long ages of stasis between punctuations. The times of stasis (little to no apparent evolutionary change) are the "equilibrium" part of punk eek which are punctuated from time to time by bursts of fairly rapid evolution.
Ok but PE would significantly reduce the amount of time needed for all these changes to occur, as opposed to numerous slight changes over a much larger time-frame yes?

The real key difference between classic Darwinism and punk eek is not time-frame. Classic Darwinism emphasizes "phyletic gradualism: i.e. the gradual transformation of a species into a new species without breaking the population into sub-groups. Punctuated equilibrium emphasizes "cladistic speciation" in which the key transformations occur in isolated sub-populations of the species after which the parent population is replaced by the new form through migration. In the fossil record, this gives the effect of a sudden jump from one form to another, although if you find the point of origin of the new form, you find the intermediate forms of transition.
Understood. :)

It is now agreed that both phyletic gradualism and punctuated equilibrium play a significant role in evolution.
PE explains the jumps in the fossil record?

No. Evolution as a biological concept only comes into play with the origin of life which is a long, long time after the origin of molecules.
Essentially, I mean do TEs think that man evolved (indirectly or otherwise) from microscopic organisms. That is what is meant by molecules-man evolution isn't it? That we started as sludge, and ->billions of years<- are now man? Or have I got that wrong. Perhaps I should have specified.

Also evolution does not aim to produce humanity. There is no trend in evolution toward humanity in particular, nor any reason to think humanity is a stopping point for evolution either.
Evolution explains the -how- rather than the -why- yes?

An important concept in evolution is that all species on earth are equally evolved. Bacteria have been evolving just as long as vertebrates (in fact longer) and have diversified even more. Stephen Gould used to say that humanity is just one leaf on an evolutionary bush with many branches and many leaves.
How have bacteria been evolving longer than vertebrates, yet are equally evolved? *confused*

Thanks in advance for your replies. :)
Cheers!
Digit
 
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Digit

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I think the problem here is that you have a misunderstanding of what theory means in the sciences. A theory in science does not become a fact. But let's allow Ken Miller to provide the explanation:

"Evolution is both a theory and a fact. It is a fact that living things in the past were different from living things today and that the life of the past changed, or evolved, to produce the life of the present. Recent news reports the discovery of a new mammalian fossil in China that has a small dinosaur in its stomach. This fossil is a fact -- clear evidence that some early mammals were able to prey upon dinosaurs, at least little ones. And it is just one of millions of fossils that support the fact that life has changed over time, the fact of evolution.

How did that change take place? That's exactly the question that evolutionary theory attempts to answer. Theories in science don't become facts -- rather, theories explain facts. Evolutionary theory is a comprehensive explanation of change supported by the facts of natural history, genetics, and molecular biology."

Got it? Good.
I feel we are splitting hairs here. But one good thing has come of this, which is that we know that there is a misunderstanding in some areas of discussions like this. Specifically I believe "theory" to be a way of explaining something, which is not yet proven. This comes from, quite likely, my culture and career, because I often hear terms like, "In theory, this will happen." and when it does, it's a fact. Next time up, there is no, "in theory, this will happen" it's just, "and this happens.". So yes, you are right and I don't disagree with you there, there is little point, it just muddies the pond. So if there is a misunderstanding on that regard, please be aware that it is not a willful one, and it quite likely isn't only one that only I am exhibiting.

When talking about the theory of evolution, to me, it's one giant package. We all have the same facts, the same evidence (fossils and so on), Creationists as well as Evolutionists, but I guess our theories make the difference. So, my initial question could be confusing. Thanks though. :)

Cheers,
Digit
 
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theIdi0t

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I feel we are splitting hairs here. But one good thing has come of this, which is that we know that there is a misunderstanding in some areas of discussions like this. Specifically I believe "theory" to be a way of explaining something, which is not yet proven. This comes from, quite likely, my culture and career, because I often hear terms like, "In theory, this will happen." and when it does, it's a fact. Next time up, there is no, "in theory, this will happen" it's just, "and this happens.". So yes, you are right and I don't disagree with you there, there is little point, it just muddies the pond. So if there is a misunderstanding on that regard, please be aware that it is not a willful one, and it quite likely isn't only one that only I am exhibiting.

When talking about the theory of evolution, to me, it's one giant package. We all have the same facts, the same evidence (fossils and so on), Creationists as well as Evolutionists, but I guess our theories make the difference. So, my initial question could be confusing. Thanks though. :)

Cheers,
Digit

It's a common misconception. We assume that a theory should mean the same thing regardless of the medium it is used in, but there is quite an important to distinction to be made between the "in theory" of conversation, and theories of other mediums. In science you can say a theory is actually greater than a fact.

But I should warn you that the "theory of Creationism" is not a theory in a scientific sense, it's more like saying I have a theory that Digit is a robot from outer space. I say this because I am not familiar with any or at least a decent deal of scientific evidence that supports Creationism. Is there some type of dating method that I am not aware of that gives us a reading of an Earth that is only a few thousands years old?

The other assumption being made by comparing Creationism to Evolution is that they are both giving an explanation of the same body of evidence, but this is quite false. Creationism tries to latch on to an ant hill of Mount Olympus.

It's not a competing scientific theory in any way shape or form, this should be agreed upon even by other YECs. Creation science is built upon the idea of finding a hole in the Theory of Evolution so big that it falls apart. This is the goal of every website, and every ID advocate that props up on stage. The one thing they have yet to do is provide an alternative explanation of the body of evidence supporting evolution. In fact I don't know of a single Creationist website that explains the science of even their form of Creationism. It seems that they are still scratching their heads trying to figure out what a Kind is.

But perhaps I missed a website or two?
 
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Digit

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It's a common misconception. We assume that a theory should mean the same thing regardless of the medium it is used in, but there is quite an important to distinction to be made between the "in theory" of conversation, and theories of other mediums. In science you can say a theory is actually greater than a fact.

But I should warn you that the "theory of Creationism" is not a theory in a scientific sense, it's more like saying I have a theory that Digit is a robot from outer space. I say this because I am not familiar with any or at least a decent deal of scientific evidence that supports Creationism. Is there some type of dating method that I am not aware of that gives us a reading of an Earth that is only a few thousands years old?

The other assumption being made by comparing Creationism to Evolution is that they are both giving an explanation of the same body of evidence, but this is quite false. Creationism tries to latch on to an ant hill of Mount Olympus.

It's not a competing scientific theory in any way shape or form, this should be agreed upon even by other YECs. Creation science is built upon the idea of finding a hole in the Theory of Evolution so big that it falls apart. This is the goal of every website, and every ID advocate that props up on stage. The one thing they have yet to do is provide an alternative explanation of the body of evidence supporting evolution. In fact I don't know of a single Creationist website that explains the science of even their form of Creationism. It seems that they are still scratching their heads trying to figure out what a Kind is.

But perhaps I missed a website or two?
Well without wanting to derail this thread, lets just agree we have the understanding of "theory" down. :)

Digit
 
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gluadys

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Heya Gluadys, thanks so much for the reply. :)


My question here is, is there only 1 common ancestor?

For every pair of species or groups of species that are related, yes. There is one common ancestor of all cat families, one of all cattle families, one of humans and chimpanzees.

Then we can move to a wider relationship. Cats and bears are both mammalian carnivores. Can we find that the whole cat family and the whole bear family are related through a common ancestor? What about cattle and deer? Is the human-chimpanzee group related to other ape groups such as gorillas, orangutans and baboons? Is the whole bat group related to the whole rodent group?

Obviously we have not actually found fossils of all these common ancestors and we never will, but we do find that the evidence we have in the morphology and genomes of each family is consistent with a common ancestor and better explained by common ancestry than any other theory.

Now do we find this pattern extends to larger and larger groups? Does it make sense of the evidence to suppose all mammals have a common ancestor and that they are descended from a branch of early reptiles? Yes.

How do we know? Because, if this is the case, there ought to exist a series of ancient species showing characteristics intermediate between reptiles and mammals. And there is. Furthermore, the oldest of these intermediate species is mostly reptile in appearance with only a few indications of mammalian traits, while the most recent of these intermediate species are most mammalian in appearance with only a few remnants of reptilian traits.

Can we continue to work back through evidence (not just speculation) to a common ancestor of all animal life? Yes. We have both genetic and fossil evidence of key changes at key points in history, right where they ought to be in the time-line if all animals have a common origin. We have the fossils which show a transition from fish-type vertebrates to terrestrial vertebrates. We have possible intermediates showing transitions from invertebrates to vertebrates.

We can even show a plausible connection of all animal life to unicellular life.

Similarly if we began with an oak tree, we could trace relationships via common ancestry to other types of oak trees, to other flowering plants, to non-flowering seed-bearing plants, to plants that do not form seed (e.g. ferns and mosses) right back to unicellular green algae.

Similarly, with fungi. In fact, may fungi are still unicellular.

So all forms of complex life seem to have originated from one family or another of unicellular life.

That is a matter of evidence and not just speculation or wishful thinking.

Tracing lineages through unicellular species is much more complex because of the prevalence of lateral gene transfer. Unicellular organisms can gain DNA through other means than inheritance. So while it seems likely that unicellular life also had a common origin, and that complex life is therefore derivative from that common origin, the possibility of being able to actually track down a potential common ancestor of unicellular life is virtually nil.

What we can state with some confidence is that all main forms of complex life (plant, animal, fungi) came originally from unicellular ancestors. And all members of each group are related to each other i.e. all plants to all plants, all fungi to all fungi, all animals to all animals.

It also seems likely that the unicellular ancestors of plants and the unicellular ancestors of animals and fungi were related to each other as well.

Two excellent sources of information on phylogeny (the study of the pathways of evolution) are the Museum of Paleontology hosted by UC Berkeley www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/exhibits/historyoflife.php
and the Tree of Life Project hosted by the University of Arizona. http://tolweb.org/tree/phylogeny.html

For example, we trace pathways all the way back (I assume that the image of this resembles roots of a tree, starting at one place -the trunk- and then branching out... or... branches of a tree, basically a tree)

The trunk being the common ancestor, and then the branches leading to specific species, and then sub-branches to deviations in that species and so on. Essentially though, each branch has one common ancestor, ie all dogs came from the first dog and so on? Is that right?

Yes, and that branch is connected to other branches through a common main branch and all the main branches to each other via the trunk. So "cat branch" "dog branch" "bear branch" "seal branch" are all outgrowths of the original "mammalian carnivore branch" And the mammalian carnivore branch is one of several growing from the original mammalian branch, etc.

Ok but PE would significantly reduce the amount of time needed for all these changes to occur, as opposed to numerous slight changes over a much larger time-frame yes?

Not really. Gould explains that "gradual" has two connotations. One is "in small increments" i.e. there are many steps from point A to point B. No big jumps allowed. The other is "slowly". Traditionally evolution has been thought of as gradual in both senses, so that it was thought to occur at a steady but slow pace through the small increments. In punctuated equilibrium, you keep the meaning of "in small increments" but accept that these do not necessarily happen slowly. Instead you get alternations of many small increments happening rapidly and a few small increments happening very slowly indeed. So if we were to represent the two processes visually phyletic gradualism would look like a series of steady pulses:

A - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -B

while punctuated equilibrium would look like a sort of Morse Code alternating rapid dots with longer slower dashes:

A .... _ _ _ ..... _ _ _ ...B

But since the longer slower dashes are just as much part of punctuated equilibrium as the rapid dots, the overall time-frame is the same.

PE explains the jumps in the fossil record?

It explains why the fossil record sometimes looks jumpy although evolution is not.


Essentially, I mean do TEs think that man evolved (indirectly or otherwise) from microscopic organisms. That is what is meant by molecules-man evolution isn't it?

It shouldn't be. For one thing even microscopic organisms are made of thousands, if not millions of molecules. Also molecules are not alive while microscopic organisms are. And molecules on their own are not organized into cellular structures while microorganisms are structured cells into which molecules are arranged in certain patterns for certain functions. There is really a huge difference between molecules and micro-organisms. Like the difference between bits of paint on a palette and a finished work of art.

That we started as sludge, and ->billions of years<- are now man? Or have I got that wrong. Perhaps I should have specified.

I think you are confusing evolution with the origin of living cells. A common error. Check out theories of abiogenesis.

Evolution is not about the origin of living cells. It is about changes that occur in living species.


How have bacteria been evolving longer than vertebrates, yet are equally evolved? *confused*

Well, vertebrates, as vertebrates, have not been around as long as bacteria. But vertebrates have invertebrate ancestors. And invertebrates have unicellular ancestors.

And the unicellular ancestors of invertebrates go back as far as the ancestors of bacteria. In terms of their ultimate ancestry vertebrates and bacteria are equally evolved. But since vertebrates as a specific group originated more recently, they haven't had as much time to diversify as bacteria have had.
 
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Deamiter

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Digit said:
My question here is, is there only 1 common ancestor?
To expand on gluadys' comment, you might be interested to discover that it is a mathematical certainty that all the organisms in a population must have a common ancestor. Even if the population existed for an infinite amount of time, it can be mathematically shown that any finite population that is subject to sexual reproduction will have a single male and female common ancestor (though it should be noted that the male and female ancestors can and usually are seperated by many generations).

If you're talking about a universal common ancestor, it's harder to pin it down because single-celled organisms do not reproduce sexually.
 
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Assyrian

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I don't know about that Deamiter. Yes you and I probably share a great[sup]n[/sup] grandfather, but how many great[sup]n[/sup] grandfathers do I have? We share a mitochondrial 'Eve' and Y chromosome 'Adam' but there are 23 other types of chromosomes and with recombination between pairs, potentially each gene has its own common ancestor.

It is worth pointing out again, that it is populations that evolve. The common ancestor of humans and chimps is not an individual but a species that diverged into the different lines. It becomes even more difficult to talk about common ancestor when we are dealing with unicellular organisms, because while they reproduced by dividing in two, they also swopped DNA around like it was the 1960s.
 
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Deamiter

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I don't know about that Deamiter. Yes you and I probably share a great[sup]n[/sup] grandfather, but how many great[sup]n[/sup] grandfathers do I have? We share a mitochondrial 'Eve' and Y chromosome 'Adam' but there are 23 other types of chromosomes and with recombination between pairs, potentially each gene has its own common ancestor.
I think we're discussing different details here. It is indeed a mathematical certainty that organisms in a finite sexually reproducing population have a single common ancestor, even if the population extends back infinitely with no single first pair. I'm afraid I can't find a good source for this though quite a few google hits allude to the mathematical justification.

That's not to say that all our genes came from this common ancestor. Certainly there would be other genes in the population when the common ancestor lived and mutations since then. That every member in a finite sexually reproducing population has a common ancestor however is certain.

In a very simplified model for example, the common ancestor of a population of static size N, the common ancestor would be at log(2,N) years prior (to a statistical accuracy of 1%). I know it's just a statistical calculation there, but I've seen it proven (something that's possible in maths) but in some obscure journal that I'll never find via Google or even Scirus.
http://blog.case.edu/singham/2006/09/29/the_most_recent_common_ancestor_of_all_humans_living_today
 
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