Peter Is Not The Rock!

[lokt]

The Word of Yahuweh can't be any plainer than this.

The Savior for whom the Rock was named, asked His disciples the most important question ever posed: "Who do you say (lego - affirm and maintain, advise and teach) I Am (eimi - I exist and am present as)?" To which, a disciple named for the astuteness of his revelation, responded: "Simon (a transliteration of the Hebrew name Shim’own, meaning to listen, understand, discern, regard, and proclaim) Petros (a masculine proper name meaning pebble or stone) gave the answer, ‘The Messiah, the Son of the living God.’" (Matthew 16:15-16)

Affirming this live-saving truth, "Yahushua said (lego), ‘Blessed (makarios - a poetic term denoting transcendent happiness in a life beyond labor and death) are you Shim’own (the one who listens, understands, discerns, regards, and proclaims), son of (bar) Yonah (from yownah, meaning the dove; the name of a Yahudi sent to Nineveh, Assyria whose life and book serve as a prophetic metaphor for Yahushua saving Gentiles), because flesh and blood did not make this manifest (apokalupto - disclose by baring), but My Father who is in Heaven." (Matthew 16:17) As is usually true with Scripture, every name and nuance was carefully chosen, revealing subtle and profound truths.

What follows is important. Petros/Peter isn’t the petra/bedrock. The recognition that "Yahushua is the Messiah, the Son of the living God," is the foundation upon which the ekklesia/called-out assembly would be restored and established. Beyond the evidence sprinkled throughout the Tanach, identifying the Rock with Yahshua, "Petros" was a man and every reference to "petra/bedrock" is feminine.

"Indeed (de), I (kago) say (logos) concerning this (hoti - as a marker of equivalence for identifying and explaining this) to you (soi), you (su) are (ei) Petros (a masculine proper noun meaning pebble or stone), and (kai) upon/by/in/with (epi - "upon" when used with things that are at rest, "by" when used in relationship to people, "with" when used in connection with authority, and "in" used in reference to an observation) this one (taute - singular feminine demonstrative pronoun) Rock (petra - bedrock, a feminine noun; a large stone which projects itself) I shall build by edifying, promoting, and restoring (oikodomeo - rebuild and establish, strengthen and enable, instruct and improve) My (mou) called out gathering (ekklesia)." (Matthew 16:18)

English translations all leave "hoti/concerning this" out of their renderings of Yahshua’s answer. Had it been included, no rational person would have thought that Petros, rather than his answer, was the foundation of the ekklesia. The source of edification and restoration is the Savior, not his flawed and imperfect disciple.

Believing Peter is the Rock is irrational and delusional. The evidence of Yahuweh's Word is irrevocable/irrefutable and supercedes, trumps, pre-empts, negates, refutes, and proves to be a lie all that oppose/contradict it, whether said opposition is human or church dogma.

 

[PassthePeace1]

So you couldn't make your point in the other two threads on the first page of GT about Peter? Why start a new thread? lol

 

[Fireinfolding]

So you couldn't make your point in the other two threads on the first page of GT about Peter? Why start a new thread? lol

I was thinking the same thing

Lokt what are you doing?

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[lokt]

PTP asked, "
"So you couldn't make your point in the other two threads on the first page of GT about Peter? Why start a new thread? lol"

I did not want to bury the truth. Why would you want the truth to be buried?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matt 16:18 Moreover by/thru thee saying/legw <3004> concerning-that, thou art Peter/petroV <4074>,--and, upon this, the rock/petra <4073>, will I build my assembly, and gates of hades, shall not prevail against it.

3004. lego leg'-o a primary verb; properly, to "lay" forth, i.e.

Matthew 16:18 kagw <2504>[ALSO] de <1161> {BY/THRU} soi <4671> {THEE} legw <3004> (5719) {SAYING} oti <3754> {THAT}, su <4771> {THOU} ei <1488> (5748) {ART} petroV <4074> {PETER,} kai <2532> {AND} epi <1909> {ON} tauth <3778> {THIS} th <3588> {THE} petra <4073> {ROCK} oikodomhsw <3618> (5692) {I WILL BUILD} mou <3450>{MY} thn <3588> {OF THE} ekklhsian <1577> {ASSEMBLY,} kai <2532> {AND} pulai <4439> {GATES} adou <86> {OF HADES} ou <3756> {NOT} katiscusousin <2729> (5692) {SHALL PREVAIL AGAINST} authV <846> {IT.}

Now/moreover
New Testament Greek Definition:
1161 de {deh}
a primary particle (adversative or continuative);; conj
AV - but 1237, and 934, now 166, then 132, also 18, yet 16, yea 13,
so 13, moreover 13, nevertheless 11, for 4, even 3, misc 10,
not tr 300; 2870
1) but, moreover, and, etc.
I say
New Testament Greek Definition:
3004 lego {leg'-o}
a root word; TDNT - 4:69,505; v
AV - say 1184, speak 61, call 48, tell 33, misc 17; 1343
1) to say, to speak
1a) affirm over, maintain
1b) to teach
1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct
1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say
1e) to call by name, to call, name
1f) to speak out, speak of, mention

New Testament Greek Definition:
5719 Tense - Present See 5774
Voice - Active See 5784
Mood - Indicative See 5791
Count - 3019
also
New Testament Greek Definition:
2504 kago {kag-o'}
from 2532 and 1473 (so also the dative case kamoi {kam-oy'}, and
accusative case kame {kam-eh'};; conj
AV - and I 34, I also 17, so I 4, I 4, even I 3, me also 3, misc 7; 72
1) and I
2) I also, I as well, I likewise, in like manner I
3) even I, this selfsame I
unto thee
New Testament Greek Definition:
4671 soi {soy}
dative case of 4771;; pron
AV - thee 200, thou 14, thy 4, thine own 1, not tr 2; 221
1) to you
That
New Testament Greek Definition:
3754 hoti {hot'-ee}
neuter of 3748 as conjunction; demonst. that (sometimes redundant);; conj
AV - that 612, for 264, because 173, how that 21, how 11, misc 212; 1293
1) that, because, since
thou
New Testament Greek Definition:
4771 su {soo}
the person pronoun of the second person singular;; pron
AV - thou 178; 178
1) you
art
New Testament Greek Definition:
1488 ei {i}
second person singular present of 1510;; v
AV - thou art 81, be 11; 92
1) you are, thou art

New Testament Greek Definition:
5748 Tense - Present See 5774
Voice - No Voice Stated See 5799
Mood - Indicative See 5791
Count - 1617
Peter
New Testament Greek Definition:
4074 Petros {pet'-ros}
apparently a primary word; TDNT - 6:100,835; n pr m
AV - Peter 161, stone 1; 162
Peter = "a rock or a stone"
1) one of the twelve disciples of Jesus
and
New Testament Greek Definition:
2532 kai {kahee}
apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes
also a cumulative force;; conj
AV - and 8172, also 514, even 108, both 43, then 20, so 18,
likewise 13, not tr. 348, misc 32, vr and 1; 9249
1) and, also, even, indeed, but
++++
Frequency count based on 1894 Scrivener Greek New Testament.
upon
New Testament Greek Definition:
1909 epi {ep-ee'}
a root;; prep
AV - on 196, in 120, upon 159, unto 41, to 41, misc 339; 896
1) upon, on, at, by, before
2) of position, on, at, by, over, against
3) to, over, on, at, across, against
this
New Testament Greek Definition:
5026 taute {tow'-tay} and tauten {tow'-tane} and tautes {tow'-tace}
dative case, accusative case and genitive case respectively of the
feminine singular of 3778;; pron
AV - this 105, that 4, the same 4, misc 9; 122
1) this, that, the same, see 3778
rock
New Testament Greek Definition:
4073 petra {pet'-ra}
from the same as 4074; TDNT - 6:95,834; n f
AV - rock 16; 16
1) a rock, cliff or ledge
1a) a projecting rock, crag, rocky ground
1b) a rock, a large stone
1c) metaph. a man like a rock, by reason of his firmness and
strength of soul
I will build
New Testament Greek Definition:
3618 oikodomeo {oy-kod-om-eh'-o} also oikodomos {oy-kod-om'-os} Ac 4:11
from the same as 3619; TDNT - 5:136,674; v
AV - build 24, edify 7, builder 5, build up 1, be in building 1,
embolden 1; 39
1) to build a house, erect a building
1a) to build (up from the foundation)
1b) to restore by building, to rebuild, repair
2) metaph.
2a) to found, establish
2b) to promote growth in Christian wisdom, affection, grace, virtue,
holiness, blessedness
2c) to grow in wisdom and piety

New Testament Greek Definition:
5692 Tense - Future See 5776
Voice - Active See 5784
Mood - Indicative See 5791
Count - 814
my
New Testament Greek Definition:
3450 mou {moo}
the simpler form of 1700;; pron
AV - my 501, me 52, mine 19, I 11, mine own 4; 587
1) I, me, my, of me
church
New Testament Greek Definition:
1577 ekklesia {ek-klay-see'-ah}
from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; TDNT - 3:501,394; n f
AV - church 115, assembly 3; 118
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some
public place, an assembly
1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the
council for the purpose of deliberating
1b) the assembly of the Israelites
1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance,
tumultuously
1d) in a Christian sense
1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a
religious meeting
1d2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for
eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own
religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and
manage their own affairs, according to regulations
prescribed for the body for order's sake
1d3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a
company and are united into one body
1d4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
1d5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and
received into heaven
and
New Testament Greek Definition:
2532 kai {kahee}
apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes
also a cumulative force;; conj
AV - and 8172, also 514, even 108, both 43, then 20, so 18,
likewise 13, not tr. 348, misc 32, vr and 1; 9249
1) and, also, even, indeed, but
++++
Frequency count based on 1894 Scrivener Greek New Testament.
the gates
New Testament Greek Definition:
4439 pule {poo'-lay}
apparently a primary word; TDNT - 6:921,974; n f
AV - gate 10; 10
1) a gate
1a) of the larger sort
1a1) in the wall of either a city
1a2) a palace
1a3) a town
1a4) the temple
1a5) a prison
2) the gates of hell (likened to a vast prison)
3) metaph. the access or entrance into any state
of hell
New Testament Greek Definition:
86 hades {hah'-dace}
from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc
AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions,
a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common
receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of
the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.
shall
New Testament Greek Definition:
2729 katischuo {kat-is-khoo'-o}
from 2596 and 2480; TDNT - 3:397,378; v
AV - prevail against 1, prevail 1; 2
1) to be strong to another's detriment, to prevail against
2) to be superior in strength
3) to overcome
4) to prevail

New Testament Greek Definition:
not
New Testament Greek Definition:
3756 ou {oo} also (before a vowel) ouk {ook} and
(before an aspirate) ouch {ookh}
a primary word, the absolute negative [cf 3361] adverb;; particle
AV - not 1214, no 136, cannot + 1410 55, misc 48; 1453
1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer
Wigram's frequency count is 1537 not 1453.
prevail against
New Testament Greek Definition:
2729 katischuo {kat-is-khoo'-o}
from 2596 and 2480; TDNT - 3:397,378; v
AV - prevail against 1, prevail 1; 2
1) to be strong to another's detriment, to prevail against
2) to be superior in strength
3) to overcome
4) to prevail

New Testament Greek Definition:
5692 Tense - Future See 5776
Voice - Active See 5784
Mood - Indicative See 5791
Count - 814
it
New Testament Greek Definition:
846 autos {ow-tos'}
from the particle au [perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the
idea of a baffling wind] (backward);; pron
AV - him 1947, them 1148, her 195, it 152, not tr. 36, misc 1676; 5118
1) himself, herself, themselves, itself
2) he, she, it
3) the same
Our count is 5782 based on Berry's Interlinear Text.
Wigram's frequency count is 4913 not 5118.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bumpy wumpy...............

Peter Is Not The Rock!


The Word of Yahuweh can't be any plainer than this.

The Savior for whom the Rock was named, asked His disciples the most important question ever posed: "Who do you say (lego - affirm and maintain, advise and teach) I Am (eimi - I exist and am present as)?" To which, a disciple named for the astuteness of his revelation, responded: "Simon (a transliteration of the Hebrew name Shim’own, meaning to listen, understand, discern, regard, and proclaim) Petros (a masculine proper name meaning pebble or stone) gave the answer, ‘The Messiah, the Son of the living God.’" (Matthew 16:15-16)

Affirming this live-saving truth, "Yahushua said (lego), ‘Blessed (makarios - a poetic term denoting transcendent happiness in a life beyond labor and death) are you Shim’own (the one who listens, understands, discerns, regards, and proclaims), son of (bar) Yonah (from yownah, meaning the dove; the name of a Yahudi sent to Nineveh, Assyria whose life and book serve as a prophetic metaphor for Yahushua saving Gentiles), because flesh and blood did not make this manifest (apokalupto - disclose by baring), but My Father who is in Heaven." (Matthew 16:17) As is usually true with Scripture, every name and nuance was carefully chosen, revealing subtle and profound truths.

What follows is important. Petros/Peter isn’t the petra/bedrock. The recognition that "Yahushua is the Messiah, the Son of the living God," is the foundation upon which the ekklesia/called-out assembly would be restored and established. Beyond the evidence sprinkled throughout the Tanach, identifying the Rock with Yahshua, "Petros" was a man and every reference to "petra/bedrock" is feminine.

"Indeed (de), I (kago) say (logos) concerning this (hoti - as a marker of equivalence for identifying and explaining this) to you (soi), you (su) are (ei) Petros (a masculine proper noun meaning pebble or stone), and (kai) upon/by/in/with (epi - "upon" when used with things that are at rest, "by" when used in relationship to people, "with" when used in connection with authority, and "in" used in reference to an observation) this one (taute - singular feminine demonstrative pronoun) Rock (petra - bedrock, a feminine noun; a large stone which projects itself) I shall build by edifying, promoting, and restoring (oikodomeo - rebuild and establish, strengthen and enable, instruct and improve) My (mou) called out gathering (ekklesia)." (Matthew 16:18)

English translations all leave "hoti/concerning this" out of their renderings of Yahshua’s answer. Had it been included, no rational person would have thought that Petros, rather than his answer, was the foundation of the ekklesia. The source of edification and restoration is the Savior, not his flawed and imperfect disciple.

Believing Peter is the Rock is irrational and delusional. The evidence of Yahuweh's Word is irrevocable/irrefutable and supercedes, trumps, pre-empts, negates, refutes, and proves to be a lie all that oppose/contradict it, whether said opposition is human or church dogma.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bump for rebuttals.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Bump again

 

[Kaibeto]

I'm lost

 

[IrishGuy070890]

PTP asked, "
"So you couldn't make your point in the other two threads on the first page of GT about Peter? Why start a new thread? lol"

I did not want to bury the truth. Why would you want the truth to be buried?

Dude, first of all, chill out. secondly, you are now claiming that for hundreds if not thousands of years we as christ followers have been reading a bible that is innacurate. also, why are you making such a big deal about Peter not being the rock? the fact of the matter is, he was. he started the catholic church wich was the foundation of christianity and it spread the message all around the world. today, catholosism is still one of the biggest religions in the world, and even though you may believe it has some wrong stuff, it still has the right message and it works for alot of people. so chill out man.

 

[Trento]

New Testament Greek Definition:
2532 kai {kahee}
apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes
also a cumulative force;; conj
AV - and 8172, also 514, even 108, both 43, then 20, so 18,
likewise 13, not tr. 348, misc 32, vr and 1; 9249
1) and, also, even, indeed, but
++++
Frequency count based on 1894 Scrivener Greek New Testament.
the gates
New Testament Greek Definition:
4439 pule {poo'-lay}
apparently a primary word; TDNT - 6:921,974; n f
AV - gate 10; 10
1) a gate
1a) of the larger sort
1a1) in the wall of either a city
1a2) a palace
1a3) a town
1a4) the temple
1a5) a prison
2) the gates of hell (likened to a vast prison)
3) metaph. the access or entrance into any state
of hell
New Testament Greek Definition:
86 hades {hah'-dace}
from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc
AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions,
a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common
receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of
the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.
shall
New Testament Greek Definition:
2729 katischuo {kat-is-khoo'-o}
from 2596 and 2480; TDNT - 3:397,378; v
AV - prevail against 1, prevail 1; 2
1) to be strong to another's detriment, to prevail against
2) to be superior in strength
3) to overcome
4) to prevail

New Testament Greek Definition:
not
New Testament Greek Definition:
3756 ou {oo} also (before a vowel) ouk {ook} and
(before an aspirate) ouch {ookh}
a primary word, the absolute negative [cf 3361] adverb;; particle
AV - not 1214, no 136, cannot + 1410 55, misc 48; 1453
1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer
Wigram's frequency count is 1537 not 1453.
prevail against
New Testament Greek Definition:
2729 katischuo {kat-is-khoo'-o}
from 2596 and 2480; TDNT - 3:397,378; v
AV - prevail against 1, prevail 1; 2
1) to be strong to another's detriment, to prevail against
2) to be superior in strength
3) to overcome
4) to prevail

New Testament Greek Definition:
5692 Tense - Future See 5776
Voice - Active See 5784
Mood - Indicative See 5791
Count - 814
it
New Testament Greek Definition:
846 autos {ow-tos'}
from the particle au [perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the
idea of a baffling wind] (backward);; pron
AV - him 1947, them 1148, her 195, it 152, not tr. 36, misc 1676; 5118
1) himself, herself, themselves, itself
2) he, she, it
3) the same
Our count is 5782 based on Berry's Interlinear Text.
Wigram's frequency count is 4913 not 5118.

According to Bibical Scholars our Lord wa using Aramaic.

Lange's Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: The Gospel According to Matthew, vol. 8
(Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1976), page 293
JPK page 19
John A. Broadus
Baptist author
(two quotations from the same work)


Many insist on the distinction between the two Greek words, thou art Petros and on this petra, holding that if the rock had meant Peter, either petros or petra would have been used both times, and that petros signifies a separate stone or fragment broken off, while petra is the massive rock. But this distinction is almost entirely confined to poetry, the common prose word instead of petros being lithos; nor is the distinction uniformly observed.
But the main answer here is that our Lord undoubtedly spoke Aramaic, which has no known means of making such a distinction [between feminine petra and masculine petros in Greek]. The Peshitta (Western Aramaic) renders, "Thou are kipho, and on this kipho". The Eastern Aramaic, spoken in Palestine in the time of Christ, must necessarily have said in like manner, "Thou are kepha, and on this kepha".... Beza called attention to the fact that it is so likewise in French: "Thou art Pierre, and on this pierre"; and Nicholson suggests that we could say, "Thou art Piers (old English for Peter), and on this pier."

Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary — New Testament, vol. 2
(Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1994), page 78
JPK page 18
John Peter Lange
German Protestant scholar

The Saviour, no doubt, used in both clauses the Aramaic word kepha (hence the Greek Kephas applied to Simon, John i.42; comp. 1 Cor. i.12; iii.22; ix.5; Gal. ii.9), which means rock and is used both as a proper and a common noun.... The proper translation then would be: "Thou art Rock, and upon this rock", etc.


"The Church in the Gospel of Matthew: Hermeneutical Analysis of the Current Debate"
Biblical Interpretation and Church Text and Context
(Flemington Markets, NSW: Paternoster Press, 1984), page 58
JPK pages 16-17
Donald A. Carson III
Baptist and Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Seminary
(two quotations from different works)

Although it is true that petros and petra can mean "stone" and "rock" respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry. Moreover the underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable; and most probably kepha was used in both clauses ("you are kepha" and "on this kepha"), since the word was used both for a name and for a "rock". The Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name.

According to
William Hendriksen
member of the Reformed Christian Church
Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary

The meaning is, "You are Peter, that is Rock, and upon this rock, that is, on you, Peter I will build my church." Our Lord, speaking Aramaic, said, "And I say to you, you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church." Jesus, then, is promising Peter that he is going to build his church on him! I accept this view.


The New American Commentary: Matthew, vol. 22
(Nashville: Broadman, 1992), pages 251-252
JPK pages 31-32
David Hill
Presbyterian minister and Senior Lecturer in the Department of Biblical Studies
University of Sheffield, England

On this rock I will build my church: the word-play goes back to Aramaic tradition. It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church. The disciple becomes, as it were, the foundation stone of the community. Attempts to interpret the "rock" as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely.

The Gospel of Matthew"
The New Century Bible Commentary
(London: Marshall, Morgan & Scott, 1972), page 261
JPK page 34
Suzanne de Dietrich
Presbyterian theologian

The play on words in verse 18 indicates the Aramaic origin of the passage. The new name contains a promise. "Simon", the fluctuating, impulsive disciple, will, by the grace of God, be the "rock" on which God will build the new community.


The Layman's Bible Commentary: Matthew, vol. 16
(Atlanta: John Knox Press, 1961), page 93
JPK page 34
Donald A. Hagner
Fuller Theological Seminary



The natural reading of the passage, despite the necessary shift from Petros to petra required by the word play in the Greek (but not the Aramaic, where the same word kepha occurs in both places), is that it is Peter who is the rock upon which the church is to be built.... The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny this in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock... seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Roman Catholics to justify the papacy.

 

[Hentenza]

According to Bibical Scholars our Lord wa using Aramaic.

Lange's Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: The Gospel According to Matthew, vol. 8
(Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1976), page 293
JPK page 19
John A. Broadus
Baptist author
(two quotations from the same work)


Many insist on the distinction between the two Greek words, thou art Petros and on this petra, holding that if the rock had meant Peter, either petros or petra would have been used both times, and that petros signifies a separate stone or fragment broken off, while petra is the massive rock. But this distinction is almost entirely confined to poetry, the common prose word instead of petros being lithos; nor is the distinction uniformly observed.
But the main answer here is that our Lord undoubtedly spoke Aramaic, which has no known means of making such a distinction [between feminine petra and masculine petros in Greek]. The Peshitta (Western Aramaic) renders, "Thou are kipho, and on this kipho". The Eastern Aramaic, spoken in Palestine in the time of Christ, must necessarily have said in like manner, "Thou are kepha, and on this kepha".... Beza called attention to the fact that it is so likewise in French: "Thou art Pierre, and on this pierre"; and Nicholson suggests that we could say, "Thou art Piers (old English for Peter), and on this pier."

Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary — New Testament, vol. 2
(Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1994), page 78
JPK page 18
John Peter Lange
German Protestant scholar

The Saviour, no doubt, used in both clauses the Aramaic word kepha (hence the Greek Kephas applied to Simon, John i.42; comp. 1 Cor. i.12; iii.22; ix.5; Gal. ii.9), which means rock and is used both as a proper and a common noun.... The proper translation then would be: "Thou art Rock, and upon this rock", etc.


"The Church in the Gospel of Matthew: Hermeneutical Analysis of the Current Debate"
Biblical Interpretation and Church Text and Context
(Flemington Markets, NSW: Paternoster Press, 1984), page 58
JPK pages 16-17
Donald A. Carson III
Baptist and Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Seminary
(two quotations from different works)

Although it is true that petros and petra can mean "stone" and "rock" respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry. Moreover the underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable; and most probably kepha was used in both clauses ("you are kepha" and "on this kepha"), since the word was used both for a name and for a "rock". The Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name.

According to
William Hendriksen
member of the Reformed Christian Church
Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary

The meaning is, "You are Peter, that is Rock, and upon this rock, that is, on you, Peter I will build my church." Our Lord, speaking Aramaic, said, "And I say to you, you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church." Jesus, then, is promising Peter that he is going to build his church on him! I accept this view.


The New American Commentary: Matthew, vol. 22
(Nashville: Broadman, 1992), pages 251-252
JPK pages 31-32
David Hill
Presbyterian minister and Senior Lecturer in the Department of Biblical Studies
University of Sheffield, England

On this rock I will build my church: the word-play goes back to Aramaic tradition. It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church. The disciple becomes, as it were, the foundation stone of the community. Attempts to interpret the "rock" as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely.

The Gospel of Matthew"
The New Century Bible Commentary
(London: Marshall, Morgan & Scott, 1972), page 261
JPK page 34
Suzanne de Dietrich
Presbyterian theologian

The play on words in verse 18 indicates the Aramaic origin of the passage. The new name contains a promise. "Simon", the fluctuating, impulsive disciple, will, by the grace of God, be the "rock" on which God will build the new community.


The Layman's Bible Commentary: Matthew, vol. 16
(Atlanta: John Knox Press, 1961), page 93
JPK page 34
Donald A. Hagner
Fuller Theological Seminary



The natural reading of the passage, despite the necessary shift from Petros to petra required by the word play in the Greek (but not the Aramaic, where the same word kepha occurs in both places), is that it is Peter who is the rock upon which the church is to be built.... The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny this in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock... seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Roman Catholics to justify the papacy.

Ah, stop it! The aramaic MSS are not extant so there is NO way to prove this.

 

[lokt]

Irish Guy asserted, "Dude, first of all, chill out. secondly, you are now claiming that for hundreds if not thousands of years we as christ followers have been reading a bible that is innacurate. also, why are you making such a big deal about Peter not being the rock? the fact of the matter is, he was. he started the catholic church wich was the foundation of christianity and it spread the message all around the world. today, catholosism is still one of the biggest religions in the world, and even though you may believe it has some wrong stuff, it still has the right message and it works for alot of people. so chill out man."


The scripture I posted refutes the lie that Peter is the Rock. The scripture I posted is the word of Yahuweh and your calling Him a liar.

You are right about a couple of things. RCC is a religion and I believe it teaches "some wrong stuff". Actually, I believe that about all religions regardless of denomination.

You need to review Revelation and learn what Yahushua thinks of religion. I'll jump start you with a few key words that He uses such as, "death", "Seat of Satan", and "vomit". Those are the words of Yahuweh as clearly presented in His Word. As such, there is no use is telling me to "chill out". I'm merely the messenger. Yahuweh is the One you need to tell to "chill out".

Lotsa luck...

 

[IamAdopted]

But the main answer here is that our Lord undoubtedly spoke Aramaic, which has no known means of making such a distinction [between feminine petra and masculine petros in Greek]. The Peshitta (Western Aramaic) renders, "Thou are kipho, and on this kipho". The Eastern Aramaic, spoken in Palestine in the time of Christ, must necessarily have said in like manner, "Thou are kepha, and on this kepha"....

as this has been refuted before.. The NT was written in greek. Therefore we have to take what is written as is written. Jesus may have spoke in Aramiac but the understanding of what He was really saying was written in greek. Just because it does not line up with cc theology does not mean someone can come along and put an Aramaic word in place of what was written so it could be undertstood to what Christ was saying. He was not exaulting peter. Peter was exaulting HIM.. Once again we have a backwards look at the truth..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

According to Bibical Scholars our Lord wa using Aramaic.

I really could care less what other "scholars" say as they are a dime a dozen.
How come no "scholar" translated this very important verse in Reve 11:2 accurately for example. I am sure the OC Jews would have recognized what it was symbolizing concerning the End of the OC Priesthood. Perhaps the Roman church wanted to "hide it"?

Matthew 26:3 Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the Court/aulhn <833> of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,

Reve 11:2 and, the Court/aulhn <833> [Court of Priests/Altar of Burnt Offerings?] the one within/eswqen <2081> the Sanctuary[#3485], be you Casting Out!! [#1537-#906 ek-bale] out-side,[exw #1854]

 

[Trento]

Ah, stop it! The aramaic MSS are not extant so there is NO way to prove this.

The Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name.

Outside the New Testament, the most ancient and authoritative reference to Matthew is found in fragments of a work by Papias (born ca. A.D. 70), who apparently knew some of the early Apostles, including Matthew. Papias tells us that "Matthew wrote down the sayings in the Hebrew language." The "sayings" refer to the oral traditions concerning Jesus which circulated after his death. Scholars generally agree that the term "Hebrew" in Papias's mouth refers to the Aramaic language and not to Hebrew. This testimony of Papias, in addition to extensive examination of the Gospel text, has led most modern critics to conclude that the First Gospel is a Greek text modeled on an Aramaic original which has been lost.

 

[Hentenza]

The Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name.

Outside the New Testament, the most ancient and authoritative reference to Matthew is found in fragments of a work by Papias (born ca. A.D. 70), who apparently knew some of the early Apostles, including Matthew. Papias tells us that "Matthew wrote down the sayings in the Hebrew language." The "sayings" refer to the oral traditions concerning Jesus which circulated after his death. Scholars generally agree that the term "Hebrew" in Papias's mouth refers to the Aramaic language and not to Hebrew. This testimony of Papias, in addition to extensive examination of the Gospel text, has led most modern critics to conclude that the First Gospel is a Greek text modeled on an Aramaic original which has been lost.

Trento, the aramaic MSS are NOT extant. Scholars can debate all they want but the fact of the matter is that there is NO way to prove it. This is NOT a legitimate argument.

 

[Rick Otto]

Petra percieved is petra achieved.

Only I don't percieve it, and never did. Even as a Catholic grade schooler, I spotted this as a phony rock.
It was as obvious to me as the wealth & power of Rome, and every bit as ironic for a religion about a Messiah who disparages riches. It was in 4th grade I stopped Father Blackwell & asked him if he realy believed transubstantiation, his eyes glazed over & he looked up beatificaly, answering "Yes." This was the coolest priest at the parish, and all the kids trusted him. I decided at that moment they were were indeed, all crazy as loons.

Throughout the Bible, Jesus is The Rock.

It is a gross distortion to say Peter started the church.
Don't the very words have Jesus saying "I will build"?
You have to read the Bible "with one eye closed"

I think this thread was a great idea.

 

[Hentenza]

Petra percieved is petra achieved.

Only I don't percieve it, and never did. Even as a Catholic grade schooler, I spotted this as a phony rock.
It was as obvious to me as the wealth & power of Rome, and every bit as ironic for a religion about a Messiah who disparages riches. It was in 4th grade I stopped Father Blackwell & asked him if he realy believed transubstantiation, his eyes glazed over & he looked up beatificaly, answering "Yes." This was the coolest priest at the parish, and all the kids trusted him. I decided at that moment they were were indeed, all crazy as loons.

Throughout the Bible, Jesus is The Rock.

It is a gross distortion to say Peter started the church.
Don't the very words have Jesus saying "I will build"?
You have to read the Bible "with one eye closed"

I think this thread was a great idea.

Petra was actually the name of the meanest nun in my catholic school as I was growimg up. That is how I knew that there is no way that petra was the first pope but she could have been.

 

[Matthan]

Peter is the rock -- catholic legend
Peter started the christian church -- catholic legend
Peter was the first "pope" -- catholic legend

But lokt, you are beating your head against a concrete wall. Remember that Jesus told us there would be many like these (many are called, meaning tht many want to be Christians), but few are chosen (meaning that God gave us one single roadmap, the Bible. Only it can lead us to the straight gate after following the narrow path). If you look at scriptural facts (the Truth of God), there are many who honestly believe they can use idols and all sorts of other non-scriptural legends to get to God. Why, they even pray to created beings to ask for things. They deny God's truth, and try to do it their way. And of course they rely on their long history as their justification for believing so many things that are not in the Bible (God's only truth), or that are actually condemned by God.

And they will even claim that the Bible should never have been written because 1. God never ordered it to be written, or 2. Jesus was certainly capable of writing it but He never wrote a single word. They completely ignore that God did order it written by the various apostles. The Holy Ghost inspired every single word of it, but that doesn't matter. And they also toss out the "inspired traditions" rubbish, but never take the time to rationalize that many of their "inspired" traditions actually contradict what is found in Scripture.

No, Peter did not start the Christian Church in rome. There were hundreds of Christian churches already established long before the Christian Church in Rome was started. And Peter did not start that church, either. Anyone reading Romans and understanding Paul would know that he never preached where any other apostle had already preached Jesus, and he was the first apostle to preach in Rome as he clearly tells us. But that truth doesn't matter because their church has a legend that they believe instead.

Sometimes I think that I should write a book...

Matthan