Pre-destination???

[Fishtoff]

Is there such a thing as being pre-destined for heaven by God or do you belief that anyone become saved?

 

[Ceridwen]

What difference does it make? The punishment of God will be just as relentless whether you say the people chose to disbelieve in the Trinity or were not determined by God to believe it. I really see no valuable distinction between the two interpretations. Obviously, one interpretation is correct and the other incorrect, but in the end, it doesn't matter. The Arminian hell is no smaller or cooler than the Calvinist hell.

 

[jhitch244]

i believe that our salvation is predetermined. i will probably be out numbered here but i believe the sovereignty of God dictates my salvation and not anything i have control of.

Ephesians 1:3-14 talks about predestination

here is part of it*

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
(Ephesians 1:11 NIV)

 

[Nachtjager]

Hey Fish, I think this is the most debated and argued point of Christianity, and welcome to the site BTW.

Predetermination is a very sticky subject and at the moment I'm up to my eyeballs studying it. The Calvinist view, which many support, to my spirit, greatly contradicts many other teachings of the New Testament and Christ himself. Actually, I don't like any of the views on predetermination that I've found thus far.

I think Luther may have had it right when he implored Christians not to explore the doctrine of predetermination because it was too complex and outside of man's understanding. Instead, Luther suggested we look to Christ and not lose sight of his teachings. In other words, not become entangled in theology that seems impossible to understand.

So, naturally, we study this stuff and become entangled.

Having said all that, I will say I think I may be onto something, and if someone's better versed in the original Greek that Paul wrote Romans in, please correct me. Unless I'm mistaken, the word Paul used in Romans can, and sometimes is, translated as "appoint" and not "destine". If that's the case, then our more recent translations are all terribly incorrect and the whole matter is settled in my opinion. It is one thing to "appoint" someone, it is quite another to set someone's "destiny." I can appoint my daughter to clean her room - it doesn't mean she's gonna' do it.

Take heart, this is one of the great mysteries of the NT. God bless!

 

[jhitch244]

Nachtjager vbmenu_register("postmenu_35481283", true); - you're ok in my book!

 

[JonF]

Romans 9, Ephesians 1, the last portion of John 6 seem to suggest we are predestined…

 

[hansman]

... I will have to vote predetermined.

But if we are to be diligent in getting to know God, then we will be in the Word, and if we are in the Word then we will be confronted with what in the heck do passages such as

Romans 9
Eph. 1:3-6
John 6
Romans 8:30

mean. To get settled in your own mind what such passages mean, will put you in one camp or the other.

Blessings
Hans

 

[HumbleMan]

There are scripture references on both sides of the issue that make valid points.

My wife and I were discussing this this morning. She brought up a good point. If we are or are not predestined to heaven, what is the purpose of Satan? If you believe in predesitination then you believe in OSAS. Why would the rest of the world need Satan to lead them astray if they were already going to hell?

 

[JonF]

I have some good questions for anyone who doesn’t believe in any form of predestination:

-Could Judas of been saved? (In light of OT prophecy about Judas)
-Could Paul of not been saved? (Specifically after Acts 9:15,16 happened)
-Do you ever pray that God will bring people to Christ?
-What makes us turn towards God If it isn’t God Himself? Is it something innate, or just circumstances?

 

[JonF]

There are scripture references on both sides of the issue that make valid points.

My wife and I were discussing this this morning. She brought up a good point. If we are or are not predestined to heaven, what is the purpose of Satan? If you believe in predesitination then you believe in OSAS. Why would the rest of the world need Satan to lead them astray if they were already going to hell?

Just because you believe that God is ultimately responsible for salvation doesn’t mean that he doesn’t use people/things as a means.

 

[Nachtjager]

These two verses, interestingly also by Paul, would seem to indicate that salvation is a condition brought on by man deciding to choose Christ for themselves - it is a decision of each man's heart. There are many other passages I could cite, but these are in close proximity to the previous verses which cause much of the predestination debate.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


How can one call upon the name of the Lord if we are without the free choice of doing so? Most of the NT teaches we are saved by a profession of faith and belief in Christ, and Jesus himself states that. I think too much spiritual energy is being wasted on this subject and it causes many to go astray and lose faith. I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but it's too deep to get into here... maybe I'll write a book on it someday!

Take care and God bless!

 

[JonF]

I don’t know a single Calvinist who would deny a profession of faith is necessary, or belief in God, or that a decision needs to be made. The question is what causes us to do these things?

Take a look at Romans 8:

Verses 1-4: Without Christ we are in the sinful nature/mind and under the law of sin and death.
Verse 6-7: The sinful mind is both hostile to God and cannot submit to God’s law.
Verse 8: Those controlled by the sinful nature can not please God.

Paul clearly tells us in verse 9 who has the sinful mind, who is hostile to God’s law, and who is unable to submit to God’s law. The complement of you, as indicated by the “You, however”. Verses 1-8 (especially 6-8) seem to be painting a picture of people in of themselves unable to turn to God. And verse 9 makes it clear his talking about unbelievers.

What about verses like John 6:44, John 6:65, 1 Corinthians 2:14?

 

[hansman]

These two verses, interestingly also by Paul, would seem to indicate that salvation is a condition brought on by man deciding to choose Christ for themselves - it is a decision of each man's heart. There are many other passages I could cite, but these are in close proximity to the previous verses which cause much of the predestination debate.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


How can one call upon the name of the Lord if we are without the free choice of doing so? Most of the NT teaches we are saved by a profession of faith and belief in Christ, and Jesus himself states that. I think too much spiritual energy is being wasted on this subject and it causes many to go astray and lose faith. I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but it's too deep to get into here... maybe I'll write a book on it someday!

Take care and God bless!

Nachtjager,

A Calvinist would not disagree with the idea that one must choose. As JonF has said God uses "means" to bring about what He has ordained. He uses the preaching of the Word and the Holy Spirit to bring about person to his own "free" choice. Choosing is part of the process God has predetermined to bring a person into the Kingdom. Everyone who is a believer has made a choice to become a Christian. It's just that a Calvinist believes that God is sovereign over everything, even salvation. It is a mystery how God is both sovereign over all and yet man is responsible for his own actions.
Blessings,
Hans

 

[Adfectus]

I think there's a difference between God knowing what our destiny is and God already deciding our destiny for us. Say you were outside of time like God and you made a computer program that generated a random number 10 times. Since you are God and the past present and future are all the same to you you would know the results, not at once or before it happened, you just know.

I don't think that the outcome of the program was destined to be one thing or another. You could say though that the results of a random number generator or throwing a die are not really random, if you knew how to throw a die just right from a certain position you what side it would land on. Humans can't perceive this because it is so complicated and fast. I believe that choice is something different and more important to God than randomness though.

I think every time we make a choice it's something more than a clockwork process or the random firing of neurons wighted against wants and needs. I think our since our minds report to our spirits there is something more involved when making a choice, we are the ghosts in the human animal machine . So I don't think we are predestined to make the choices we make because even though God knows what we will do because to him we have already done it, our life programs run without being rigged by God. Besides if we were predestined to go to heaven that would defeat the purpose of our existence, to see if beings could choose to love God without being in heaven.

 

[JonF]

I think there's a difference between God knowing what our destiny is and God already deciding our destiny for us. Say you were outside of time like God and you made a computer program that generated a random number 10 times. Since you are God and the past present and future are all the same to you you would know the results, not at once or before it happened, you just know.

I don't think that the outcome of the program was destined to be one thing or another. You could say though that the results of a random number generator or throwing a die are not really random, if you knew how to throw a die just right from a certain position you what side it would land on. Humans can't perceive this because it is so complicated and fast. I believe that choice is something different and more important to God than randomness though.

I think every time we make a choice it's something more than a clockwork process or the random firing of neurons wighted against wants and needs. I think our since our minds report to our spirits there is something more involved when making a choice, we are the ghosts in the human animal machine . So I don't think we are predestined to make the choices we make because even though God knows what we will do because to him we have already done it, our life programs run without being rigged by God. Besides if we were predestined to go to heaven that would defeat the purpose of our existence, to see if beings could choose to love God without being in heaven.

This is not an accurate view of the predestination that most people who believe in predestination affirm. I.e. Calvinist tend to be very adamant that they do not believe foreknowledge is the means of predestination. Also, this is not the predestination that the bible seems suggest, our predestination appeals to God’s sovereignty.

 

[Adfectus]

This is not an accurate view of the predestination that most people who believe in predestination affirm. I.e. Calvinist tend to be very adamant that they do not believe foreknowledge is the means of predestination. Also, this is not the predestination that the bible seems suggest, our predestination appeals to God’s sovereignty.

Well alright, what would the Calvinists say about my last sentence?

 

[JonF]

I cannot speak on behalf of all Calvinism on this one, but I can speak on behalf of myself and in very general terms.

IMHO and from what I’ve observed:

Branches of Christianity that don’t hold some form of predestination tend to focus and treat salvation like it is the sole purpose of life. This I think is a highly inaccurate view (but don’t get me wrong, salvation is extremely important). If salvation is the crux of our existence, why was Adam even created before the fall, why did God even give us the ability to rebel? It is true that Calvinist tend to focus far less on “getting people saved” (and too often I think we carry this to close to an unpleasant extreme) because when it comes down to it, it isn’t our job to save people, that’s Christ job. Predestination puts the purpose of our life in a new light; our purpose is to Glorify God. We Glorify God in many ways, one of these ways is to do His good works in and through His Spirit for His glory. Included in these works is obedience to the great commission. But ultimately we are just the tools that God uses to bring about His salvation and His glory.

 

[Nachtjager]

With all respect to Calvinists everywhere in regard to being one of God's elect. The whole TULIP thing just doesn't work for me.

God is indeed sovereign, no doubt, wouldn't debate that. But to be sovereign and be the supreme lawmaker and dispenser of justice, wouldn't it be somewhat illogical to make laws that you knew in advance would be broken, and furthermore, who would break them, when they would break them, etc. etc.? To say that God predestines all would have to state that he predestined the fall of man, the fall of Satan, the creation of all evil, and the very creation of sin and death itself, and that would in itself argue that God is being unjust. God cannot be unjust or He is not sovereign. I've heard many say that the elect receive grace and the rest receive judgement - where is the logic or justice in that? If someone is born with a spirit incapable of being reached or made to accept Christ, then who created this person? God creates imperfection? God stacks the deck? That's not working for me either.

I'm leaning heavily toward a poor translation error of Paul's original text. I concede salvation is a gift of God, indeed I fully believe that, and I believe Jesus came as an atonement for our sin - the ultimate gift for us, and the Holy Spirit abides with us today - the ultimate, ultimate gift of God. I just cannot come to grips with how predetermination fits in with 98% of everything else the New Testament teaches.

Taking the "God exists outside of time argument" and looking at it, if God already knew everyone who would love Him and everyone who would reject Him, all through the halls of time and always has, why would the world continue to exist? What would be the point of letting our world play out, on and on, if every little detail was already known and there would be no choices, and all was set in stone all along?

In really basic terms, would you continue to watch the same rotten movie on DVD over and over again for your entire life? In short order you would know everything that was going to happen and that much of it wasn't good. Would you continue to waste your time with it? Are we to believe almighty God wants servants who are pre-wired to serve Him or not serve Him?

Again, Luther was right, I think I'll go get a Frappucino and get out of this debate!

Love to all and God bless!

 

[JonF]

With all respect to Calvinists everywhere in regard to being one of God's elect. The whole TULIP thing just doesn't work for me.

God is indeed sovereign, no doubt, wouldn't debate that. But to be sovereign and be the supreme lawmaker and dispenser of justice, wouldn't it be somewhat illogical to make laws that you knew in advance would be broken, and furthermore, who would break them, when they would break them, etc. etc.? To say that God predestines all would have to state that he predestined the fall of man, the fall of Satan, the creation of all evil, and the very creation of sin and death itself, and that would in itself argue that God is being unjust. God cannot be unjust or He is not sovereign. I've heard many say that the elect receive grace and the rest receive judgement - where is the logic or justice in that? If someone is born with a spirit incapable of being reached or made to accept Christ, then who created this person? God creates imperfection? God stacks the deck? That's not working for me either.

Paul addresses this objection in Romans 9.

I'm leaning heavily toward a poor translation error of Paul's original text. I concede salvation is a gift of God, indeed I fully believe that, and I believe Jesus came as an atonement for our sin - the ultimate gift for us, and the Holy Spirit abides with us today - the ultimate, ultimate gift of God. I just cannot come to grips with how predetermination fits in with 98% of everything else the New Testament teaches.

I may be confused but it seems to me you are saying your basis for determining which scripture is translated correctly or error free is how well it sits with you? The problem with this is, if you adopt that hermeneutical practice you can make the bible say almost anything.

Taking the "God exists outside of time argument" and looking at it, if God already knew everyone who would love Him and everyone who would reject Him, all through the halls of time and always has, why would the world continue to exist? What would be the point of letting our world play out, on and on, if every little detail was already known and there would be no choices, and all was set in stone all along?

In really basic terms, would you continue to watch the same rotten movie on DVD over and over again for your entire life? In short order you would know everything that was going to happen and that much of it wasn't good. Would you continue to waste your time with it? Are we to believe almighty God wants servants who are pre-wired to serve Him or not serve Him?

I addressed both of these points in previous post. Our fundamental purpose on earth isn’t to earn salvation. And we don’t believe predestination is caused by foreknowledge.

 

[Ceridwen]

What problem do you guys have with predestination? Do you believe that it would be vicious for God to ordain the destruction of people as he creates them? Do you believe it would be vicious for God to deprive people of a free will? Does an empirical observation of yours suggest to you that the theory doesn't fit with the facts you've discovered? Do you believe the Bible teaches differently?

I fail to see the the problem that Arminians have with the doctrine of predestination. If you believe in hell in the first place, then why not also believe in predestination?