Early Church Fathers

[No Swansong]

I have been unable to find what I am looking for.

Can someone please share with me what exactly he was required to say? Precisely?

If he is affirming that the 39 articles are historic expressions of faith that is one thing. If he is affirming that he accepts the 39 articles as true that is entirely another.

By the way I am not a relativist His word should be His word regardless of whether others think what he is affirming is relevant or not.

If he did affirm that the articles are true and he truly did not believe it at the time then he has proven to me that he is not reliable as a spiritual leader.

But again I await the actual quote.

 

[Iosias]

Something doesn't have to be perfect or entirely correct to (as a whole) bear witness. The Articles are quite clearly part of how the CofE has born witness to the faith, but (at the same time) many of them are substantially flawed.

Unfortunately you are confusing the issue. The question is not whether the 39 Articles are correct but rather whether the 39 Articles are how the CofE has born witness. In saying "The Articles are quite clearly part of how the CofE has born witness to the faith" you have just proven my point that the CofE affirms the 39 Articles.

 

[PaladinValer]

Born witness doesn't necessarily mean authenticate.

 

[Iosias]

Born witness doesn't necessarily mean authenticate.

In your opinion what does it mean?

 

[PaladinValer]

In and only of itself.

Does the 10 Articles bear witness to the faith?
Does Luther's Theses bear witness to the faith?
Does the Catholicos of the Oriental Orthodox Church bear witness to the faith?

I'd wager yes to all three.

Now the question is, which is the purest form of that witness. That, sir, is an entirely different question.

 

[Iosias]

Can someone please share with me what exactly he was required to say? Precisely?

There are two issues,
1. What did he say?
2. What does the Church of England believe?

1. What did he say?

Canon C15 of the Canons of the Church of England state:

Every archbishop and bishop shall, on the occasion of his enthronement in the cathedral church of his Province or diocese, as the case may be, and before he is enthroned, publicly and openly make the Declaration of Assent in the presence of the congregation there assembled.
​

So what does this Declaration of Assent say?
​

PREFACE
The Church of England is part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church worshipping the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It professes the faith uniquely revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds, which faith the Church is called upon to proclaim afresh in each generation. Led by the Holy Spirit, it has borne witness to Christian truth in its historic formularies, the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, The Book of Common Prayer and the Ordering of Bishops, Priests and Deacons. In the declaration you are about to make will you affirm your loyalty to this inheritance of faith as your inspiration and guidance under God in bringing the grace and truth of Christ to this generation and making him known to those in your care?

Declaration of Assent
I, A B, do so affirm, and accordingly declare my belief in the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds and to which the historic formularies of the Church of England bear witness; and in public prayer and administration of the sacraments, I will use only the forms of service which are authorized or allowed by Canon.
​

2. What does the Church of England believe?

Canon A2: Of the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion
The Thirty-nine Articles are agreeable to the Word of God and may be assented unto with a good conscience by all members of the Church of England.

Canon A5: Of the doctrine of the Church of England
The doctrine of the Church of England is grounded in the Holy Scriptures, and in such teachings of the ancient Fathers and Councils of the Church as are agreeable to the said Scriptures.

In particular such doctrine is to be found in the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, The Book of Common Prayer, and the Ordinal.​

 

[Iosias]

bear witness to the faith

What does that mean in your opinion?

 

[No Swansong]

Did he so assent?

 

[Iosias]

Did he so assent?

Yes hence he holds the office of Archbishop. The Canons I posted were correct as at 2000 see here. And even if he did not (which he did) then as a member of the CofE he is bound by:

Canon A2: Of the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion
The Thirty-nine Articles are agreeable to the Word of God and may be assented unto with a good conscience by all members of the Church of England.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

Yes hence he holds the office of Archbishop. The Canons I posted were correct as at 2000 see here. And even if he did not (which he did) then as a member of the CofE he is bound by:

Canon A2: Of the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion
The Thirty-nine Articles are agreeable to the Word of God and may be assented unto with a good conscience by all members of the Church of England.

None of what you posted actually says that by assention it means they must believe all of the 39 articles to be true.

 

[Iosias]

None of what you posted actually says that by assention it means they must believe all of the 39 articles to be true.

You have got to be kidding right?

Canon A2: Of the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion
The Thirty-nine Articles are agreeable to the Word of God and may be assented unto with a good conscience by all members of the Church of England.

You may like to look through here

 

[karen freeinchristman]

You have got to be kidding right?

Canon A2: Of the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion
The Thirty-nine Articles are agreeable to the Word of God and may be assented unto with a good conscience by all members of the Church of England.

I'm not kidding; I think that it is saying that the 39 Articles as a whole bear witness to the faith in terms of its history, and how it has developed, and especially they bear witness to the teachings and terminology of the time they were written. By that, I mean that we do use different terminology now with slightly different subtleties in our ways of describing our faith and doctrines.

 

[No Swansong]

None of what you posted actually says that by assention it means they must believe all of the 39 articles to be true.

But if that is the case then would it not also then be acceptable that he deny some part of the Creeds or one of the Sacraments?

 

[PaladinValer]

I think my points are being proven...by an ordinand!

 

[karen freeinchristman]

Well, I am only conjecturing, actually. There does not seem to be a good source of information that can help us to decide what exactly the assent really does mean. I'm still looking.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

posted the CW and BCP ordinals for comparison because they seemed different, but upon inspection, they are actually the same!

 

[ebia]

Unfortunately you are confusing the issue. The question is not whether the 39 Articles are correct but rather whether the 39 Articles are how the CofE has born witness. In saying "The Articles are quite clearly part of how the CofE has born witness to the faith" you have just proven my point that the CofE affirms the 39 Articles.

I'm sorry but "The Articles are quite clearly part of how the CofE has born witness to the faith" and "the CofE affirms the 39 Articles." are not equivalent statements.

 

[Iosias]

I'm not kidding; I think that it is saying that the 39 Articles as a whole bear witness to the faith in terms of its history, and how it has developed, and especially they bear witness to the teachings and terminology of the time they were written.

But Canon A2: Of the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion does not speak of the 39 Articles bearing witness but in fact states:

"The Thirty-nine Articles are agreeable to the Word of God" i.e. Scripture and the Articles are in agreement.

It then adds that the 39 Articles "may be assented unto with a good conscience by all members of the Church of England."

 

[Iosias]

I'm sorry but "The Articles are quite clearly part of how the CofE has born witness to the faith" and "the CofE affirms the 39 Articles." are not equivalent statements.

My point is that the CofE affirms that the 39 Articles bear witness to the Christian faith. Add to that Canon A2 and we find that the CofE affirms the 39 Articles.

 

[PaladinValer]

AV, a CoE ordinand has told you wrong, which I have been telling you and jtbdad for some days now.

Your interpretation is off. Accept it and move on. If that wrongness causes so much grief, perhaps you should reevaluate where you are right now.

And I might add, for someone who is so adamant about the 39, you have not all that long ago outright rejected one of them yourself. That's hypocricy in the worst sort, so before pointing fingers at anyone, you might want to take the log out of your own eye first.