John 16:12(Denys Sola Scriptura)

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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Floatingaxe
Actually it is Catholicism that binds. It tends to be a religion based on works. Those who were taught poorly in protestant churches that lacked any teaching of the simple message of salvation in Christ Jesus and His freedom that He gives us through the Holy Spirit tend to go looking for something to tell them what to do, and tend to switch over to legalistic fundamentalism or toxic sects or cults, or Catholicism. It is the "church" doctrine of works that is appealing...but it is not what God teaches us at all in His Word.
You have no clue what Catholicism teaches. None of what you said is true.
I always viewed cathlicism as a type of Judaism but with a New Name and Face.
 
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Benedicta00

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He went after doctrine from the beginning. The 95 Theses are basically against RCC doctrine. He questioned the RCC doctrines from the inside and actually had the guts to stand up to the "mighty" church.
he went after the abusing of indulgences and that lead him to attacking the doctrine. After he attack that one, he went after others.

Would now be a good time to mention his mental illness and OCD? That had much to do with why he had gave up and just changed the gospel.
 
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simonthezealot

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simon, what do you mean by universal authority?

I have to run now, but later when I get back I will be happy to take this up with you once I understand what you are saying and you are open to having a reasonable discussion with an open mind, and I will do the same. .. .

.
Very well...I'll place this challenge to you. Show us any early church writings whether those you consider fathers or heretics that will CONFIRM that first Peter was bishop/pope of Rome alone and that he was the head of the church and that he alone passed on said keys of authority over the entire church to the first/next bishop and that bishop in turn held that same UNIVERSAL authority...Your church claims this has been known for all ages, I say you'll see nothing until at least into the first parts of the 3rd century.
Anything you find even close, will be out of context, I'll show you...MY promise to you!
 
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simonthezealot

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I don't care about accountability of the RCC, really; I am saying loud and clear that the infallibility of Catholic Magisterium (properly understood) is a central tenet of my faith akin to the infallibility many non catholics put on the Bible which is (to a non-christian neutral observer) a product of the Church.
But the magisterium has errored...So now what.
 
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mont974x4

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One must decide if it is a minor issue that does not divide or a major one that we must stand against.

I for one can not abide by granting the statements of men the same authority of Scripture. I can not abide the worship of Mary and the "saints"...or the unbiblical process of men making people "saints". I can not abide the ideal that I need to go to an earthly man for repentance when I can go directly to Christ anytime I need to. I can't abide the almost worshipful attitude toward traditions of men.
 
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simonthezealot

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he went after the abusing of indulgences and that lead him to attacking the doctrine. After he attack that one, he went after others.

Would now be a good time to mention his mental illness and OCD? That had much to do with why he had gave up and just changed the gospel.
Catholic-luther bashing blather, heard it all before, PICK up a HISTORY book.
 
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mont974x4

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he went after the abusing of indulgences and that lead him to attacking the doctrine. After he attack that one, he went after others.

Would now be a good time to mention his mental illness and OCD? That had much to do with why he had gave up and just changed the gospel.


OK then we can ignore any statements, no matter how biblical and wise, from any man with say, parkinsons disease, is old and forgetful, or infirm in any other way?
 
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GorrionGris

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But the magisterium has errored...So now what.
I think, based on other threads, that you don't know enough about how the Magisterium works to make such a claim. Understand that if I agreed to your claim I would cease to be Catholic right away. (And probably go Orthodox :) )
 
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Benedicta00

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Bene, you are stuck on the idea that your truth is the ultimate truth and everyone else is just plain wrong. I submit to you that is arrogant to believe yourself infallible.
Like you, TLF was led to believe in the truth put forward by the RCC. On the other hand, me and others here believe the truth to lay somewhere else.
Do you not see? Is this so hard to understand?
It was you who in the beginning of it all accused us of following the Church blindly.

You were called on it.

We do not follow the Church blindly but have come to learn that the facts of history point to the truth being Catholic and not Protestant.
 
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GorrionGris

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OK then we can ignore any statements, no matter how biblical and wise, from any man with say, parkinsons disease, is old and forgetful, or infirm in any other way?
Of course not. We can never ignore any Biblical truth.
 
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simonthezealot

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I think, based on other threads, that you don't know enough about how the Magisterium works to make such a claim.
If you are going to try and defame me how bout not just using a blanket statement?? cite some things I don't know about.
 
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mont974x4

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follow no church...but rather follow Christ


and the RCC is certainly not the true Church. The true Church is made up of people from all denominations that follow Christ.


There is exactly zero proof in Scripture to support the claim that the RCC is the true church.
 
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simonthezealot

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I see all the facts pointing to Christ and fruit, the evidence that one abides in Him who THE FACT^_^
Right on Sis, its about sincere and pure devotion to our Savior and Lord!!!
 
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mooduck1

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I think the OP was addressing more an exagerated doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

Sola Scriptura simply says that all a Christian needs for salvation and edification is contained in Scripture; or so I have been taught. :)

Here's a nice summing up of it so everyone is clear.
http://www.biblicist.org/bible/sola.shtml
Sola Scriptura


[SIZE=+3]W[/SIZE]hen in 1517 Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-five Theses on the church door at Wittenberg he was merely disputing abuses in the Roman Catholic practice of "indulgences." The dispute intensified and widened, however, until Luther and his followers found it necessary to break entirely with Rome. So began the Protestant Reformation, and the doctrinal issues which separated the Reformers from medieval Catholicism are the _same_ issues which divide Protestants and Catholics today. While the doctrine of salvation (i.e., justification) became the central issue under dispute, the underlying question of religious authority was also a major concern.
Luther was convinced that the authority structure of Catholicism (Scripture/Tradition/Magisterium or Teaching Office) was illegitimate. He maintained that the church fathers, the papacy, and church councils were fallible, and had, in fact, erred. During his debates with Catholic theologians, Luther formulated the principle of _sola scriptura_ (solely Scripture) which recognized Scripture alone as the supreme and infallible authority for the church and individual believer. All ecclesiastical authorities were to be judged by Holy Writ, and never the reverse. The principle of _sola scriptura_ rejected both the idea that the Roman church possessed revelation apart from Scripture, and that the church was the infallible interpreter of Scripture.
Since the Reformation, theologians from a wide variety of persuasions have appealed to an equally wide variety of sources as the ultimate religious authority. These include reason, experience, creeds, church consensus, and the individual conscience. While recognizing that these have importance, historic Protestantism has continued to assert that the Bible alone is the final authority in matters of faith and practice. On this point, however, some questions are often raised: How do we arrive at this principle of _sola scriptura?_ How does the Bible derive its authority? And, where does Scripture teach this principle?
To answer these questions it is important to recognize that Christian theology views authority as a chain. For the Christian, the absolute authority is God Himself. More specifically, it is the triune God who reveals Himself, for authority and revelation are correlates. While God revealed Himself in deed and in word in the Old Testament, His greatest and clearest self-disclosure is found in the incarnate _Logos_ -- the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14; 14:6-10). Jesus Christ, who both _reveals_ God and _is_ God, is the imperial authority for the church and individual believer (Heb. 1:1-3). However, Christ the _Living_ Word has delegated His authority to His apostles, who -- through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit -- have recorded the _written_ word (John 14:26; 2 Pet. 1:21). Thus, Scripture has become our authority because as an infallible record of God's self-revelation it perpetuates Christ's personal authority. Scripture is objectively the Word of God (1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 3:16), and is therefore authoritative!
Does the Bible teach _sola scriptura?_ The best way to answer this is to examine how Christ and His apostles viewed Scripture.
The Gospels reveal that Jesus held Scripture in the highest regard. His statements speak for themselves: "The Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35, NIV); "Not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law..." (Matt. 5:18); "It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law" (Luke 16:17). Jesus asserted that greatness in heaven will be measured by obedience to Scripture (Matt. 5:19), while judgment will be measured out by the same standard (John 5:45-47).
The strongest evidence for the authority of the Bible is the fact that Jesus used Scripture as the _final_ court of appeal in every matter under dispute. When disputing the Pharisees on their high view of tradition, He proclaimed, "Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition..." (Mark 7:13). Scripture therefore determines whether tradition is acceptable. When Jesus was tested by the Sadducees concerning the resurrection, He retorted, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures..." (Matt. 22:29). When confronted with the devil's temptations, He responded three times with the phrase, "It is written" (Matt. 4:4-10). Clearly, Jesus accepted Scripture as the supreme authority and subjected Himself to it (Luke 24:44). And, as followers of Christ, our view of Scripture cannot be inferior to His.
What about the relationship between Scripture and the early church? While it is true that the church preceded the apostolic writings, it was the _message_ (the gospel preached) -- which was later recorded and expounded upon in the apostolic writings -- that produced the church. The New Testament became a permanent, infallible record of what was earlier an oral message. Because Scripture is identified with the gospel, it is authoritative. The church (made up of gospel-believing communities) submits to the Word (gospel) which created it. Scripture derives _none_ of its authority from the church; its authority is _inherent_ because it is the very words of God: "All Scripture is God-breathed..." (2 Tim. 3:16).
The purpose of the Scripture is to bear witness to Christ, who Himself bears witness to the integrity and authority of Scripture: "You search the Scriptures...and it is these that bear witness of Me" (John 5:39).
Does the Bible teach _sola scriptura?_ Yes! Jesus Christ speaks to us authoritatively _only_ through the objective Word of God.
Written By: Kenneth R. Samples
 
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Benedicta00

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I really don't know where you are heading with this. Jesus chose Paul, Paul preached the gospel to the gentiles, what's to argue.

I live in Houston, the technical name of a bike here is a donor cycle.^_^
No one is arguing that Jesus didn't send Paul.

The apostles knew also that Paul was sent.. how did they know? Paul's gospel matched theirs.

Thus, those who "seems to be pillars" gave him the right had of fellowship. They had the authority to judge.

They confirmed that Paul's gospel came from Christ. Anybody can pop up with a gospel and say, "hey, it's from Christ, believe it."
 
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