John 16:12(Denys Sola Scriptura)

[simonthezealot]

You have not yet answered my question . . what are you talking about?

What is missing?

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Sorry twas at the Dentist...
Whats missing is any proof of universal authority from our Lords talk with Peter up until and including Irenaeus.
Amongst hundreds of writings there is nothing

 

[Floatingaxe]

You are avoiding my actual arguments and questions to you . .. .

How do you know a particular teacher is given by God? Simply because he says something that your fallible understanding feels good about?


???


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Scan back and see my answer. God has instructed us about such matters. He tells us to look for fruit, etc. And what is your personal criteria? Why is it any different than what is plainly in the Word?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That's the key.. scripture is an authority and it is powerful, but we are not.

And if you admit to error, how can you know you are correct about any given verse?

Can you name me one person on this planet today that can without error concerning the Divine Scriptures? Heck, translations are so horrible it is anyone wonder anyone can intepret it today.

Mark 5:13 and immediately Jesus gave them leave, and having come forth, the unclean spirits did enter into the Swine, and the herd did rush down the steep place to the sea--and they were about TWO THOUSAND--and they were choked in the Sea.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I have to run now.


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[Hentenza]

Henry, Please stop.

Baptist may be consistent with what you believe thus that is why you choose it.

but TLF has several times explained to you, Catholicism was not what she believed, what she wanted to believe, and was in no way consistent with what she personally believed.

But she placed the desire for truth, no matter where that would lead over her personal desires thus she was lead to Catholicism.

Do you see the difference between the two of you?

Bene, you are stuck on the idea that your truth is the ultimate truth and everyone else is just plain wrong. I submit to you that is arrogant to believe yourself infallible.
Like you, TLF was led to believe in the truth put forward by the RCC. On the other hand, me and others here believe the truth to lay somewhere else.
Do you not see? Is this so hard to understand?

 

[simonthezealot]

you guys posted 100 posts....Any conversions yet???

 

[Floatingaxe]

That's the key.. scripture is an authority and it is powerful, but we are not.

And if you admit to error, how can you know you are correct about any given verse?

The Lord is trustworthy to correct. Do you not have faith that He can do that? Having the Holy Spirit's empowerment is essential.

 

[thereselittleflower]

simon, what do you mean by universal authority?

I have to run now, but later when I get back I will be happy to take this up with you once I understand what you are saying and you are open to having a reasonable discussion with an open mind, and I will do the same. .. .

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[Fireinfolding]

Can you name me one person on this planet today that can without error concerning the Divine Scriptures? Heck, translations are so horrible it is anyone wonder anyone can intepret it today.

Mark 5:13 and immediately Jesus gave them leave, and having come forth, the unclean spirits did enter into the swine, and the herd did rush down the steep place to the sea--and they were about TWO THOUSAND--and they were choked in the sea.

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live A THOUSAND YEARS ~~TWICE TOLD~~, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

Mic 7:9 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.



Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Benedicta00]

I do know what the word means. I am an editor.

The Holy Spirit only is infallible and He is my interpreter. I rely on Him...not some archaic Church line.

God has also honoured His Word by placing me in a great local church with good, strong, and Spirit-led leaders as Shepherds of His flock in this area.

This is how God does it.

“There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit Baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams.”


Martin Luther
The Facts about Luther, 356

 

[Hentenza]

Then why did he say Cephas (Rock, not pebble) and James, who seemed to be pillars, is who gave him the right hand of fellowship to preach to the gentiles... becuase they heard his testimony and knew it didnlt come from him but God?

You're out of gas indeed, time to pull it over and ride a bike or something.

I really don't know where you are heading with this. Jesus chose Paul, Paul preached the gospel to the gentiles, what's to argue.

I live in Houston, the technical name of a bike here is a donor cycle.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I am leaving for a time myself, as I am teaching the Word tonight! Oh gee, I hope I get it right! How will I ever know?

 

[Trento]

He went after doctrine from the beginning. The 95 Theses are basically against RCC doctrine. He questioned the RCC doctrines from the inside and actually had the guts to stand up to the "mighty" church.

He also had the guts to say the following in his sermons which no Protestant here has admitted.

"Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church. We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them."
Sermon for the Sunday after Christ’s Ascension; John 15:26-16:4 (2nd sermon), page 265, paragraph 28, 1522.


Luther remarked several years later:

"We concede -- as we must -- that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God's word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?"
Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 - 16 (1537), in vol. 24 of LUTHER'S WORKS,
St. Louis, Mo., Concordia, 1961, 304

 

[Benedicta00]

It's very typical when confronted with the Word of God to revert to quoting man.

How weird.

what word of God were we confronted with?

We asked are you infallible and you answer to the effect the Holy Spirit is... our response to that is that of Luther's:

“There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit Baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams.”


Martin Luther
The Facts about Luther, 356

 

[Hentenza]

you guys posted 100 posts....Any conversions yet???

No, but we hugged and danced. Missed it.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Yes, we ALL KNOW that the RCC has appointed it and it itself as the SOLE interpreter of Scripture and it's own Tradition (as it itself defines and chooses).


And yes we ALL KNOW that it "interprets" God's Holy Word so that it is in full agreement with it and it itself alone - God is required to agree with the RCC, God's Word is subject to the words of the RCC, not the other way around. We know that.


The question is: is that good epistemology? Is that the best way to evaluate the correctness of the teachings of the RCC? Is it the best approach to norming for the teacher to be the SOLE arbiter for his own teachings according to the Rule of his own teachings (Sola Ecclesia)? Catholics insist that it is - in fact it's infallible, perfect and unaccountable (when it's done by it and it itself ALONE) but the very same thing is self-authenticating, circular and supremely dangerous if any other does what it itself insists is perfect, holy, infallible and unaccountable.



Thank you for this very important discussion.




Pax


- Josiah



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[simonthezealot]

simon, what do you mean by universal authority?

"primacy of peter" all other churches must answer to...
Uniersal.
authority.
easy words to look up.

 

[simonthezealot]

He also had the guts to say the following in his sermons which no Protestant here has admitted.

"Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church. We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them."
Sermon for the Sunday after Christ’s Ascension; John 15:26-16:4 (2nd sermon), page 265, paragraph 28, 1522.

Things change!

 

[Benedicta00]

By their fruit!

By the Holy Spirit's speaking.

By the fact that their lives are God-honouring and obedient, and what they say lines up with Scripture.

But everyone thinks their stuff lines up with scripture.

Like Luther said, i quote him becuase he said it best.

“There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit Baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams.”

Martin Luther
The Facts about Luther, 356

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

A very good point to bring up IAA . . I am VERY GLAD someone has begun to think through what we are saying to arrive at this point.

It was impossible to bring this up earlier without confusing the issue more until someone on the other side was ready to discuss this very valid point.

Very well done IAA.

Now, I agree this is can be VERY, VERY true regarding man's communication to man left to his own devices.

But this is NOT necessarily true regarding man left to his own devices.

We see entire cultures which have no written works handing EVERYTHING down by word of mouth, keeping everything unchanged.


We see this was true before Moses penned the first books of the bible, no scripture predates Moses, and yet we have the history of the world handed down to us from creation forward . . . all by word of mouth, ALL TRADITION passed on orally from generation to generation.

So we see that the argument, while it CAN be true, is NOT AUTOMATICALLY true.


Now we add another layer to this understanding which removes the problem of change altogether.


When Jesus promised the Apostles they would be led into the ALL Truth by the Holy Spirit, He meant just that. They PERSONALLY would be led into the ALL Truth.

When the Holy Spirit led the Apostles into the ALL Truth, it was through divine inspiration, it was the infallible truth, which Paul tells us was passed on both orally and in writing.

Now, Why would God take so much trouble to give the ALL Truth to be passed down both verbally and in writing, and not take any care to PRESEVERE that SAME ALL Truth both verbally and in writing?

See, you ASSUME that it is merely up to man and his OWN devices to pass on the verbal teachings opening them up to error.

But that is your ASSUMPTION for which you have no evidence to prove this was the case.


In contrast to your assumption, we have the Church gifted with the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit who led the Apostles into the ALL Truth in the first place.

We have Jesus ordianing the Apostles and sending the Apostles the same way the Father sent Him, with the same power and authority.

This included:

1. The power and authority to teach infallibly
2. The power and authority to pass on the same power and authority to others they ordained

As the Apostles passed on the ALL Truth to those they ordained - both in written AND VERBAL form, they also passed on the power and authority to TEACH INFALLIBLY this ALL Truth, both in written AND VERBAL form, and to infallibly pass on the same to those they ordained.

This is called apostolic succession and has always been taught by the Church, evidence for which is also found in the scriptures which I have already referenced by well known statements by Jesus.

And so your ASSUMPTIONS

1. that this is left to man's own devices and
2. has no protection by the Holy Spirit to maintain the integrity of the ALL Truth as it was passed on from generation to generation

have no evidence to back them up.


Just as the Apostles delivered the ALL Truth to the Church both verbally and in written form, so the Holy Spirit has been protecting the SAME ALL Truth,

1. handed down both verbally and in written form, in both forms,
2. through those ordained as the Apostles were ordained and
3. sent in the same authority and power as Jesus was sent from the Father with,
4. including the power and authority to teach infallibly through the Holy Spirit.

This is the teaching of the Earliest Christians with the words of the Apostles still ringing in their ears . .

This is the teaching of the Apostles as we see supported by what is recorded in scripture (for those of you who need scripture above all).

This is the Chrsitian faith as handed down by the Apostles.

This is the Apostolic Faith of the Christian Church.


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Perhaps the longest list of completely unsubstantiated self-serving ASSUMPTIONS I've ever seen...



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