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Ham's Creation Museum

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Mallon

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In a weird way, I think this museum may end up being a good thing. As shern said earlier, there are three kinds of people in the world: creationists, evolutionists, and fence-sitters. I think once the fence-sitters see what creationism entails, including herbivorous T. rex, evolution as the root of all evil (contra the Bible), zero fossil evidence (but lots of dioramic evidence), etc., they will be quick to reject it. Like shernren, I think this museum will only serve to polarize the issue even further, convincing only the convinced, and amusing the rest.
But with half of America being anti-evolution, I expect the museum will stay open for a while.
 
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jeffweeder

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Ham's Creation Museum


Well, Ham's Creation Museum is open this weekend.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/ar...=1&oref=slogin

What are people's thoughts on this?




its about time a more realistic model for the origins of life was put before the public................peace
It was special, God put his heart into it, he made it pretty, funny, beautiful.-purposeful.

Beats that opportunistic ,nartural fluke of life rhetoric anyday.

Everthing that is ,is because God put it there, not because of chance.

Everthing God CREATED is good
anything Chance created is bbbbbad.


Science isnt about origins anyway,,,its about what can be seen and observed and studied and tested.
At least creationism has a model to work with as it has its origins in the Bible.


Science is giving us a glimpse in these days of the wonderful organisation that makes up even the simplest of bacteria.

If bacteria is so highly complex, we havent even scraped the tip of the iceberg when it came to him creating man in his own image and how amazing that would be.


Man and land animals were made on the same day and theirs not one species he did not name.
Every animal was bought to Adam and nothing suitable was found, until the woman was taken from his own Kind-side.

How unique is the women in all of creation....no dust



 
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Citanul

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its about time a more realistic model for the origins of life was put before the public................

What makes this more realistic than any other model?

Science isnt about origins anyway,,,its about what can be seen and observed and studied and tested.

But if those origins can be studied at tested, why should science deal with them? And doesn't this museum claim to be scientific anyway?
 
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Mallon

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But if those origins can be studied at tested, why should science deal with them? And doesn't this museum claim to be scientific anyway?
This is a point that crops up continuously among creationists, and I think it is worth a thread all of its own. Confusion seems to reign among creationists with regards to the utility of science. On the one hand, they condemn origins science for trying to explain what they feel cannot be explained. On the other, institutions like AiG attempt to (mis)use science in order to make their 6-day creation model more believable. Then there's the late Henry Morris' rantings about evolution and creationism both being devoid of science, despite the fact that he titled one of his best-selling books Scientific Creationism. I am forever trying to understand the creationists' seemingly contradictory stance on science.
 
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keyarch

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Well, Ham's Creation Museum is open this weekend.
What are people's thoughts on this?
You asked, so here are a few of mine:
1. I wish that AiG had the very first verse of the Bible correct like they promote.
2. People respond to visual media more than written. This is just another "tool" for evangelism.
3. My guess is, that they will be trying to reach the young impressionable minds. Since "evolution" is the doctrine taught in schools that's impressing those same minds, maybe this will bring a balance and give them something to think about.
4. Since it was funded by donated funds, why should anybody else worry about what it was spent on?
5. If the evidence for "evolution" is so strong, then it can speak for itself without worry about the pillar of science crumbling.
6. Why are some so worried about people convincing others that Biblical Creation is true? Why are they even worried about it? Are creationists an embarrassment to TE'st and are they worried about the association due to a common belief in God?
 
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Floodnut

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How is deceiving people honoring God? The U.S. already has a pathetic science education record as it is ( or any education record for that matter). Are we really honoring God by purposely trying to encourage people to not use their God given intelligence?
Here we go again, "evos" have carte blanche permission to call creationist LIARS, when in fact EVOLUTION is the lie and those who believe in are always calling God a liar. Promoting the truth of the Word of God is not promoting a lie.
 
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Jase

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Here we go again, "evos" have carte blanche permission to call creationist LIARS, when in fact EVOLUTION is the lie and those who believe in are always calling God a liar. Promoting the truth of the Word of God is not promoting a lie.
Is it any wonder we feel that way when people like Kent Hovind, the Creationist spokesperson gets sent to jail for lying to the IRS, or creationists like yourself who do nothing but drive by insults saying how evil evolutionists are?

You're not promoting truth, you're promoting a myth that was debunked hundreds of years ago, and some of the less scientifically educated are behind the times and haven't gotten the memo. This museum only further encourages them to not bother to learn anything.
 
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The Lady Kate

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Well I've said this often enough and I'll say this again. The Creation Museum is a huge waste of money. If they were sincere about actually doing science (instead of souping up creationism by giving it an already-peeling layer of scientism), this money would have gone to fund research groups, or to resettle allegedly persecuted scientists in new creationist facilities, or something else better. No other science in the history of science has ever tried, or had, to convince the public before it convinced the scientific community.

The perverse thing is that creation science is trying so hard to pretend to be science without actually being science.


I got a chuckle out of this part:

So dinosaur skeletons and brightly colored mineral crystals and images of the Grand Canyon are here, as are life-size dioramas showing paleontologists digging in mock earth, Moses and Paul teaching their doctrines, Martin Luther chastising the church to return to Scripture, Adam and Eve guiltily standing near skinned animals, covering their nakedness, and a supposedly full-size reproduction of a section of Noah’s ark.
Rather than fund real paleontologists, the money goes to create some fake ones.

And this...

We learn that chameleons, for example, change colors not because that serves as a survival mechanism, but “to ‘talk’ to other chameleons, to show off their mood, and to adjust to heat and light.”

Oh please.
 
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Dannager

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5. If the evidence for "evolution" is so strong, then it can speak for itself without worry about the pillar of science crumbling.
What we're worried about is that evolution isn't being allowed to speak for itself in these cases. The creationists running this museum, for instance, are lying to their customers about evolution.
 
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shernren

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We learn that chameleons, for example, change colors not because that serves as a survival mechanism, but “to ‘talk’ to other chameleons, to show off their mood, and to adjust to heat and light.”
Oh please.

Actually, Howstuffworks has "The most famous color-changer, the chameleon, alters its skin color using a similar mechanism, but not usually for camouflaging purposes. Chameleons tend to change their skin color when their mood changes, not when they move into different surroundings." link I don't know if they have a citation for this, but the Creation Museum might just be right on this one.
 
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shernren

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3. My guess is, that they will be trying to reach the young impressionable minds. Since "evolution" is the doctrine taught in schools that's impressing those same minds, maybe this will bring a balance and give them something to think about.

... 5. If the evidence for "evolution" is so strong, then it can speak for itself without worry about the pillar of science crumbling.

Suppose I built an anti-relativist museum. I start with some obscure philosophical reason to say that Christianity is opposed to relativity, but the real feature of the museum would be that I would include plenty of anti-relativist exhibits.

For example, I might make a booth where kids can make videos of various objects being thrown across a room. Relativity predicts that as these objects are thrown, they should contract in the direction of their motion - and yet, kids, the baseball stays round all the way through! Or I could make a small replica of the twin paradox: have a slide which kids can slide down, and tell them that relativity predicts that the kid who slid down the slide is now a little older than his/her friend who stood at the base of the stairs all this while - and yet Charlie here hasn't had a birthday in the chute, has he?

And when anybody asks, I'll just say that I'm trying to give them a balanced perspective on science. Since children will be taught in schools that relativity is right, maybe this will give them a balance and give them something to think about.

Wouldn't people all over protest? Think about it for a moment and you'll realize why arguments about "balance" don't make sense in science pedagogy.

4. Since it was funded by donated funds, why should anybody else worry about what it was spent on?

Creationists should be concerned that AiG didn't get bang for its buck. I wonder if auditors have put up any estimates of the financial income the museum will bring, or the amount of upkeep it will take. For the cost of buying land and building a big boring fixed building, they could probably have outfitted a fleet of "Creation Science Trucks" which would function as mobile museum displays, or fund real research that would actually convince the scientists.

Shouldn't creationists be concerned that AiG is missing out on a huge opportunity? Convince the scientists that creationism is right and they will do all your publicity for you. "Darwin Wrong After All!" would be on the headlines in all the newspapers and they wouldn't have to pay a cent in advertising.

6. Why are some so worried about people convincing others that Biblical Creation is true? Why are they even worried about it? Are creationists an embarrassment to TE'st and are they worried about the association due to a common belief in God?

Biblical Creation is the belief that God created the heavens and the earth. That is not what the museum is promoting, which is creationism. Creationism is the belief that the Bible can only be true and authoritative if the creationist set of scientific theories about the Earth and life are true. And any museum which teaches kids "if scientific theory A is true, then the Bible is as well" will also teach them that "if scientific theory A is false, then the Bible is as well". And they will be answerable for that.
 
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T

The Lady Kate

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Actually, Howstuffworks has "The most famous color-changer, the chameleon, alters its skin color using a similar mechanism, but not usually for camouflaging purposes. Chameleons tend to change their skin color when their mood changes, not when they move into different surroundings." link I don't know if they have a citation for this, but the Creation Museum might just be right on this one.


Heh... go figure.
Learn something new every day.

EDIT: I can see the museum's display now: "Chameleons -- the Mood Rings of God's Creation."
Since man was made from dirt, does that make us his Pet Rock? :)
 
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Dannager

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Heh... go figure.
Learn something new every day.
It doesn't change the fact that the museum is trying to pretend like the scientific community asserts that chameleons change their colors as a form of camouflage. Nor does it change the fact that they're also trying to pretend that other color changing creatures who use it to hide themselves don't exist.

It's still dirty. It's still disingenuous. It's still intellectually dishonest. It's still repulsive lying on the part of certain fundamentalist religious leaders.
 
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Digit

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Well, Ham's Creation Museum is open this weekend.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/arts/24crea.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

What are people's thoughts on this?

entertainment_27641_2.jpg
Heyas,

I think this is awesome, and only wish there was one where I live to be honest. Didn't realise it was opening so soon though...

Digit
 
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keyarch

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Biblical Creation is the belief that God created the heavens and the earth. That is not what the museum is promoting, which is creationism. Creationism is the belief that the Bible can only be true and authoritative if the creationist set of scientific theories about the Earth and life are true. And any museum which teaches kids "if scientific theory A is true, then the Bible is as well" will also teach them that "if scientific theory A is false, then the Bible is as well". And they will be answerable for that.
Regarding the bold type above, how about some truth in the definition of Creationism?
 
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keyarch

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Sure. If your definition is better than mine, I'll gladly agree that I was wrong. So put one up. :)
shernren said:
Creationism is the belief that the Bible can only be true and authoritative if the creationist set of scientific theories about the Earth and life are true.
online dictionary said:
Creationism: a doctrine or theory holding that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing and usually in the way described in Genesis.
I would add that a Creationist holds what Scripture says about the matter to be first and foremost a factual account. The creation "model" that one holds is based on their interpretation of Scripture. Any scientific theories then are looked at in light of that belief. To me, this is similar to an evolutionist looking at things with a belief in "naturalism" and/or "materialism".


The way I read your definition, it sounds like the creationist has a scientific theory first, and then interprets the Bible to fit that theory. A Creationist in general believes that true science is compatible with a true interpretation of scripture. Creationist don't usually believe "the Bible can only be true - if". They already believe it to be true.
 
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