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Everyone here should watch this!!!

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philadiddle

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I'm looking for a comment on this video from a creationist. I posted it in the C&E forum a month and a half ago and haven't gotten a reply from a YEC yet, so I'll try my luck here.

It's 2 hours long, but he is a very good speaker and very well informed. The speaker is Ken Miller, professor of cell biology at Brown university. He also happens to be a Christian (Catholic if that matters). The first hour is the actual lecture if you don't want to watch the whole 2 hours, but the question and answer half has some very interesting information in it too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg
 

mark kennedy

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I'm looking for a comment on this video from a creationist. I posted it in the C&E forum a month and a half ago and haven't gotten a reply from a YEC yet, so I'll try my luck here.

It's 2 hours long, but he is a very good speaker and very well informed. The speaker is Ken Miller, professor of cell biology at Brown university. He also happens to be a Christian (Catholic if that matters). The first hour is the actual lecture if you don't want to watch the whole 2 hours, but the question and answer half has some very interesting information in it too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

Everyone should watch this as well.

Behe on Intelligent Design
 
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Deamiter

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The OP's link really is a great video and well worth the two hours as it goes into detail in a very understandable way and focuses on evolutionary biology rather than jumping all over the place or spitting polarizing rhetoric.

Mark -- you might consider avoiding linking to 65 MB downloads. The youtube model of streaming is much friendlier to the average internet connection these days. You might also consider commenting on the link in the OP rather than simply trying to railroad the thread by throwing out your own favorite video.
 
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pgp_protector

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The OP's link really is a great video and well worth the two hours as it goes into detail in a very understandable way and focuses on evolutionary biology rather than jumping all over the place or spitting polarizing rhetoric.

Mark -- you might consider avoiding linking to 65 MB downloads. The youtube model of streaming is much friendlier to the average internet connection these days. You might also consider commenting on the link in the OP rather than simply trying to railroad the thread by throwing out your own favorite video.
I'd rather have a downloadable version myself of the OP video, that way I can throw it on my Zune & watch it as I've got time away from the PC.
 
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Citanul

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I'd rather have a downloadable version myself of the OP video, that way I can throw it on my Zune & watch it as I've got time away from the PC.

It is actually possible to download Youtube videos. I'm probably not really allowed to go into details here, but it's quite easy to find out how via Google.
 
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Deamiter

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It is actually possible to download Youtube videos. I'm probably not really allowed to go into details here, but it's quite easy to find out how via Google.
Indeed, as it's not in any way illegal to convert the youtube videos you download into another format (not in general anyway -- always need to watch out for copyright laws) I'll post a quick link that'll get you a flash version:
http://www.techcrunch.com/get-youtube-movie/
 
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Deamiter

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Well if you really interested, Pitman wrote a page dealing with this video.
Think you could get him to code it to parse in firefox as a good majority of us internet geeks use? I got through a summary of Behe's and miller's videos before I got tired of mentally parsing the html myself.
 
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philadiddle

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Well if you really interested, Pitman wrote a page dealing with this video.
I've been reading some of it. Interesting stuff. Maybe you could pick a particular point that Pitman makes and we could discuss it.
 
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Smidlee

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There is one thing I noticed from this video is I felt Miller was being totally dishonest when he stated if the human chromosomes #2 didn't match two of the apes chromosomes this would disprove evolution. Even a layman can see past this claim. Here is just one example of a contradiction made to fit the theory even though it blows our understanding out of the water.
Again Life is found to be very unpredictable and full of surprises unlike something like gravity which is very predictable.
 
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Deamiter

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There is one thing I noticed from this video is I felt Miller was being totally dishonest when he stated if the human chromosomes #2 didn't match two of the apes chromosomes this would disprove evolution. Even a layman can see past this claim. Here is just one example of a contradiction made to fit the theory even though it blows our understanding out of the water.
Again Life is found to be very unpredictable and full of surprises unlike something like gravity which is very predictable.
Perhaps you should watch that section again. He says very clearly that since we have different numbers of chromosomes, the only two options are that we must have lost a chromosome or one must have fused. Because the loss of that chromosome is fatal it's not an option so the only way we could be descendant from a common ancestor with other apes is if the chromosomes fused.

In the article you cited, the relationship of different chromosomes in different species not discussed, and you should be aware that fusing, copying and deletion of chromosomes are all possibilities in the changing of the number of chromosomes in a genome. In humans, evolution could only be supported by a fused chromosome because we have one less than other apes and we can't have lost the chromosome since that would be a fatal mutation. In voles, you'd need to cite a specific species and point out it's genetic relationship with another specific species to make any sort of comparison based on the number of chromosomes alone as Miller has done based on humans and other ape species that have one more set of chromosomes.

In short, Miller was absolutely right -- there is no way evolution could account for our chromosome differences with other apes if the chromosomes were not fused.
 
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Smidlee

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In short, Miller was absolutely right -- there is no way evolution could account for our chromosome differences with other apes if the chromosomes were not fused.
And if it was found out that there wasn't any sign of a fused chromosome this wouldn't hurt evolution one bit as evolutionist would do what they always do which is to explain it away. It the same prediction which was made about the universality of the genetic code but when it was found out this wasn't true this had absolutely no effect of "universal common ancestor believers". Evolutionist makes all kinds of wild predictions including predicting exact opposites.
So I totally disagree when we are speaking to people who believe" Mutations" can do just about anything.
In the article even with a different number of chromosomes between sexes of a specie of voles, it was found not to be fatal. Noticed how it is assumed they evolve 60 to 100 time faster just because there are vast differences in DNA but very hard to see any physical difference.
 
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Deamiter

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And if it was found out that there wasn't any sign of a fused chromosome this wouldn't hurt evolution one bit as evolutionist would do what they always do which is to explain it away.
Isn't the whole point of science to explain what we see in the natural world? In contrast, when creationists see the DNA that is only ever found in chromosome end-caps in the MIDDLE of this human chromosome they don't come to the obvious conclusion that two chromosomes fused, but instead that God must have done it for some unknown reason because the creationist cannot be wrong about Biblical interpretation...

It the same prediction which was made about the universality of the genetic code but when it was found out this wasn't true this had absolutely no effect of "universal common ancestor believers". Evolutionist makes all kinds of wild predictions including predicting exact opposites.
The first sentence doesn't parse. Are you somehow claiming that scientists thought every creature would have exactly the same genetic code? Further, the mechanisms of evolution don't allow prediction of exact results because mutations are essentially random. Do you dispute that what you might call microevolution or adaptation can cause opposite results (as an extreme example, extinction with one mutation, thriving with another)? There's really nothing controversial here, and unless you say something more concrete than "evolutionists just make stuff up" so we can deal with individual cases, I'm not sure what you're trying to discuss here.
So I totally disagree when we are speaking to people who believe" Mutations" can do just about anything.
Oh, not anything! Mutations can't give a frog wings without going through many generations of advantageous precursors. Simulations of evolution have NEVER been able to produce an eye that can zoom precisely because there are no precursors to a moving lens whereas they can easily produce current eyes through small advantageous mutations. It's quite a straw man to claim that anybody claims mutations can do just about anything.
In the article even with a different number of chromosomes between sexes of a specie of voles, it was found not to be fatal. Noticed how it is assumed they evolve 60 to 100 time faster just because there are vast differences in DNA but very hard to see any physical difference.
Think about this for a second. Are you claiming that all sixty species of voles (and that's just those in this study) were taken on the ark just 4000 years ago? The different species certainly aren't visually obvious though the voles seem to be able to identify their own species (we often need to use genetic tests according to the article). If not, you're claiming that evolution moves MILLIONS of times faster than usual, not just 60-100!

Furthermore, it's no impossibility that evolution should move faster in some cases. Notice that they don't claim mutations happen faster in voles -- they just split into different species more often than other organisms. Given that their number of chromosomes seems to have a very wide range in which the voles can survive (unlike humans who experience death effects with the wrong number of chromosomes) it seems likely that their chromosomes are simply arranged such that they are more easily copied than in other organisms, and once copied they quickly lead to sexual isolation through well-understood means.

The article even mentions a detail that could be the explanation of increased speciation -- the voles' mitochondrial DNA is rather uniquely capable of inserting itself in the cell nucleus' DNA. Can you see how this would increase the rate of mutation and thus make speciation more likely?

Current understanding of evolution doesn't have it gradually moving at one speed, I'm sure you've heard of punctuated equilibrium where a small population can be geographically isolated after many generations of accumulated diversity and will rather quickly adapt through cutting down the diversity (keeping only the positive traits in the new environment). That one population of organisms would experience speciation more often than another is interesting, but hardly a challenge to current understanding of evolution. In fact, if you questioned some leading creationists on this, I suspect they'd even support the fact that these voles experience faster 'micro-evolution' than other organisms. It's just not that controversial a finding as you seem to want to make it.
 
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