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Free Will

DarkWinter

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What What What!?! Now we have a choice. Just because God knows the future doesn't mean we don't have a choice. God just simply knows what choice we will choose. It does matter what choice we have because God doesn't choose for us. We have Free Will, we decide our fate, God just knows ahead of time what we choose. Why in the world would God say that he chooses, because then he wouldn't be just. God says in the Bible that he would not have anyone go to Hell, but that all men come to him. But, if God were to make men believe in Him or give us no other choice, then He would be a tyrant. If God really decided ahead of time what we were to believe, then why wouldn't He make it so that we all chose Him. Wee, we have a choice, because otherwise we would all choose Him.
 
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FishFace

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What What What!?! Now we have a choice. Just because God knows the future doesn't mean we don't have a choice. God just simply knows what choice we will choose.

Hooray, someone else who hasn't read any of the philosophical material, but still thinks he has all the answers.
Sorry, that wasn't meant to sound quite as caustic as it did. Suffice to say, your unsupported assertion has already been noted, dealt with, and the refutation has not been responded to adequately by anyone.

It does matter what choice we have because God doesn't choose for us. We have Free Will, we decide our fate, God just knows ahead of time what we choose. Why in the world would God say that he chooses, because then he wouldn't be just. God says in the Bible that he would not have anyone go to Hell, but that all men come to him. But, if God were to make men believe in Him or give us no other choice, then He would be a tyrant. If God really decided ahead of time what we were to believe, then why wouldn't He make it so that we all chose Him. Wee, we have a choice, because otherwise we would all choose Him.

And this is simply more assertion without evidence. This is a philosophy discussion forum - it is not the place for you to make any claim you please without backing it up. May I suggest you take a look at the responses prior to yours in this thread, many of which say exactly what you just said, and the ensuing replies that those elicited.
 
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DailyBlessings

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Hooray, someone else who hasn't read any of the philosophical material, but still thinks he has all the answers.
Sorry, that wasn't meant to sound quite as caustic as it did. Suffice to say, your unsupported assertion has already been noted, dealt with, and the refutation has not been responded to adequately by anyone.
As far as I know, there was never any reasoned refutation. Darkwinter's answer stands.
 
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FishFace

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As far as I know, there was never any reasoned refutation. Darkwinter's answer stands.

Fine then, I'll repeat it, although it's been stated several times by me and others.

"Just because God knows the future doesn't mean we don't have a choice."

This just shows an unwillingness to think fully about the implications of God's perfect knowledge. If God knows what we will "choose" we cannot "choose" not to do that.
That's not a choice, it's not free will.

All responses so far have revolved either around assertions with no argument (like DarkWinter's) appeals to cause (such as elman's first, if I recall - God doesn't cause our choice - but the argument doesn't claim that) or appealing to some contorted logic of our decision causing God's knowledge retroactively.
This last one is the most interesting, but simply by acknowledging the fact that, at this moment in time, God knows your choice, the only get-out is that you've already decided, which isn't much of a get out at all.

Given that God has known forever, you must have been in a state of "decided" forever, which doesn't make sense since you haven't existed forever. Hence, reductio ad absurdum. If we assume that's not absurd, then there is no time where you ever actually made the decision, since God has always known the decision, and you've therefore always already made the decision. How exactly have you made a decision, if there was never a time when you hadn't? You never actually did the "making." Another absurdity.
 
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DailyBlessings

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This just shows an unwillingness to think fully about the implications of God's perfect knowledge. If God knows what we will "choose" we cannot "choose" not to do that.
That's not a choice, it's not free will.
So goes the argument, but there is no reason to think this. God's perfect knowledge, should he have it, would in no way prevent you from making a given decision. The decision is still made intentionally by you and of your own volition, and therefore is free in the sense that the church has usually meant it. You seem to be saying that for a person to have free will they would have to have supernatural powers roughly similar to the Newtonian God- the ability to alter the laws of the world at one's whim. It may very well be that some philosophers might even agree with you, be they Christian or no. This is clearly not the case however. I can't "choose" to fly, or speak in German without learning it first- but this doesn't really impinge on free will. If I choose to go to the grocery store instead, it is not because I am being forced to do so. If I choose to axe murder my neighbor, this also is a free choice on my part, and one that I can and ought to bear the consequences for (this being the interest the church had in free will to begin with).

I should remark that I do not actually believe in God's omnipotence as it has recently been posited, but I haven't yet seen a sound argument that necessitates its non-existence, without first drawing assumptions about its implications which do not follow, or which proceed from Western scientific perceptions of what the universe is and how it functions, which are often at odds with those held by the traditions which are putting forth a doctrine of free will in the first place. Your assumption that we all believe in linear time is a case in point- from your perception, we occupy a "place" along a timeline, held prisoner in a given spot that moves forward at a regular place with a past and a future; actions happen once and only once along that timeline. This perception proceeds from the culture you were raised in, and is not universally held.
 
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smog

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What What What!?! Now we have a choice. Just because God knows the future doesn't mean we don't have a choice. God just simply knows what choice we will choose. It does matter what choice we have because God doesn't choose for us. We have Free Will, we decide our fate, God just knows ahead of time what we choose.

Okay. What if I knew what you were going to choose. What if I could look at anyone in the world and know with absolute certainty all of their future choices. Could this happen if they had free will? I think it's easier to discuss this if we get God out of the picture.

Also, when people say that pre-knowledge implies that free will does not exist, it is by contraposition of the fact that (according to their definition) free will precludes pre-knowledge.

Why in the world would God say that he chooses, because then he wouldn't be just. God says in the Bible that he would not have anyone go to Hell, but that all men come to him. But, if God were to make men believe in Him or give us no other choice, then He would be a tyrant. If God really decided ahead of time what we were to believe, then why wouldn't He make it so that we all chose Him. Wee, we have a choice, because otherwise we would all choose Him.

A tyrant forces people to do X when it is contrary to their will. If you make it so everyone wants to do X (and want to want to do X, etc.), it can't be tyranny.
 
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Tiphereth

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I have written the following in another forum; tell me what you think.
Before I begin...

[I have omitted a brief tutorial on propositional and predicate logic. It will be posted below]

Back on topic

This is known as the problem of theological fatalism, that God's omniscience or omnipotence deprives creaturely free will. We can analyze two different forms of fatalism: one from omnipotence and one from omniscience:

... [I have left out the one from omnipotence for relevancy]

From omniscience

A more well-known version of problems with God and free will is that of God's omniscience and free will. It holds that God's infallible knowledge restricts a person from doing otherwise, hence depriving a person of their free will. This problem is an ancient one, deriving from musings on logical determinism by Aristotle and those before Him. St. Augustine once said:
And with respect to all His creatures, both spiritual and corporeal, He does not know them because they are, but they are because He knows them. For He was not ignorant of what He was about to create; therefore He created because He knew; He did not know because He created.

Saint Augustine of Hippo, On the Trinity, Book XV, Chapter 13
Theological fatalism is the thesis that God’s omniscience contradicts the free will of His creatures. To get an idea of what the argument revolves around, consider the following example:
God knows that tomorrow you will wear a blue-striped pair of socks amidst the one hundred pairs of socks you have. Now, can you pick something else instead, perhaps that black-and-white pair of socks?​
It seems that if you can, God can be mistaken. But, if God can't be mistaken you must pick the blue-striped pair. But, if you must pick something with no other possibility, what happened to your free will? This is what the issue is like.

The argument can be stated in the following way.
  1. If a person has free will, then if a person does a particular action, then it can be that a person does not do that particular action.
  2. If God is omniscient, then God's knowledge is infallible concerning all states of affairs.
  3. If God's knowledge is infallible concerning all states of affairs, then God knows that a person does a particular action.
  4. If God knows that a person does a particular action, then it is false that it can be that a person does not do that particular action.
  5. It is false that it can be that a person does not do that particular action and it is false that it can be that a person does not do that particular action.
  6. Therefore, either it is false that God is omniscient or it is false that a person has free will.
Formally:
  1. ((∀xy Fx → (Ax → Dxy)) ∧ Fp) → (Ap → Dpa)
  2. ((∀z Sz → Iz) ∧ Sg) → Ig
  3. Ig → Kgp
  4. Kgp → ¬Dpa
  5. ¬(Dpa ∧ ¬Dpa)
  6. ¬(Fp ∧ Sg)
Fx = x has free will
Ax = x does a particular action
Dxy = x could have done y
Sz = z is omniscient
Iz = z is infalliblly knowledgeable about all states of affairs
Fp = a person has free will
Ap = a person freely does a particular action
Dpa = a person could have refrained from that particular action
Sg = God is omniscient
Ig = God is infalliblly knowledgeable about all states of affairs
Kgp = God knows that a person does a particular action
  1. Modus ponens, universal instantiation
  2. MP, UI
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. law of non-contradiction, law of excluded middle
  6. reductio ad absurdum
(1) follows from that the ability to do otherwise is a necessary condition of free will. If one cannot do otherwise, then one cannot be said to have free will since free will implies a multiplicity of possible outcomes, as opposed to merely one.

(2) follows from the definition of omniscience, which requires infallible foreknowledge.

(3) trivially follows since knowledge of a person's actions is a state of affairs and thus God has infallible foreknowledge of it.

(4) is true since it cannot be that God knows that a person does a particular action and a person actually refrains from it. So, given God's foreknowledge, the ability to do otherwise is impossible.

(5) follows from the law of non-contradiction. It cannot be that one can do otherwise and at the same time that is false.

(6) follows by reductio ad absurdum. If our premises derive a contradiction, then the conjunction of our premises are false.

There are various responses. I will entertain four of them.

The Psychologist Response

One common objection is that essential omniscient observation does not constitute compulsion, in other words, arguing against (5). I disagree for the very reason that essential omniscience compels such actions since it cannot be that God knows that a person does do a particular action and that a person does not do that particular action. Choice requires multiple possibilities, due to the Principle of Alternate Possibilities. Omniscience denies this. This objection is completely ignoring the very logic set down in the argument. Often, analogies to psychologists are drawn. Some may argue that psychologists frequently predict human behavior, but this does not mean they compel such behavior. These analogies are fatally flawed from the fallacy of false analogy. God, unlike the psychologist, is essentially omniscient, essentially omnipotent, essentially omnibenevolent, and essentially the creator of the universe. The psychologist is of limited knowledge, is of limited power, is of limited good, and is not the creator of the universe. These absolute properties of God are wherein contradictions arise: one cannot construct analogies ignoring such properties. The objection can also be answered a second way. The problem here is that God is essentially the creator of the universe. By creating a universe by which God possesses necessarily full knowledge of, He instantiates all such things into that which cannot be otherwise. This is also what Richard Gale has contended with regards to the free will defense.

The Boethian Response

A second objection is that God is essentially atemporal and that allows God to observe the future. It does not refute any specific premise and indeed fails to resolve the problem. All it provides is that in the timeless realm, it is always known that a person does do any particular action. While the Boethian Response explains such essential omniscience, it does not constitute a cogent rejoinder since theological fatalism already presumes such essential omniscience.

The Frankfurtian Response

A third objection is one raised by philosopher Harry Frankfurt. He argues against (2), citing various thought experiments to show that alternate possibilities are not necessary for the freedom of will. A typical case is given:
Black, an evil neurosurgeon, wishes to see White dead but is unwilling to do the deed himself. Knowing that Mary Jones also despises White and will have a single good opportunity to kill him, Black inserts a mechanism into Jones's brain that enables Black to monitor and to control Jones's neurological activity. If the activity in Jones's brain suggests that she is on the verge of deciding not to kill White when the opportunity arises, Black's mechanism will intervene and cause Jones to decide to commit the murder. On the other hand, if Jones decides to murder White on her own, the mechanism will not intervene. It will merely monitor but will not affect her neurological function. Now suppose that when the occasion arises, Jones decides to kill White without any "help" from Black's mechanism. In the judgment of Frankfurt and most others, Jones is morally responsible for her act. Nonetheless, it appears that she is unable to do otherwise since if she had attempted to do so, she would have been thwarted by Black's device. (Adapted from an example by John Fischer, 1982).

As quoted in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy – Foreknowledge and Free Will
Many would agree that Mary Jones acts freely. However, it is merely an illusion that there are not alternate possibilities. I think the problem with this thought experiment is quite simply that there are alternate possibilities. Let me give just two such possibilities, provided in the example itself:
  1. Mary Jones decides to not kill to White, the machine intervenes, and White is killed.
  2. Mary Jones decides to kill White, the machine does not intervene, and White is killed.
I have italicized where the difference between the two cases are. In the first, Mary Jones makes the choice to not kill White and in the second, she makes the choice to kill White. These choices are different. What some mistakenly paid attention to was that the outcome was the same i.e. White is killed. But, as the argument shows, what matters is the choice a person P makes, not whatever outcome is consequent of it. As some philosophers have noted, free will is more akin to trying rather than succeeding. One may have the free will to flap one's arms, but that does not mean that one will succeed at flight. Indeed, not even the outcomes are the same. In the first instance, the machine intervenes. And in the second instance, the machine does not intervene. Indeed, other possible outcomes exist. White, for example, may not die: Jones’ attempts might fail. And I instruct the reader to notice that “deciding to not kill White” is not the same as “not deciding to kill White.” Indeed, the former does not imply the latter. Perhaps Mary Jones therefore will make no attempt to either decide to kill White or decide to not kill White. She may perhaps go to the movies, or attempt to remove the machine, or so on. Thus, even Frankfurt’s example leads to alternate possibilities. I’m curious however, if indeed Frankfurt was right, how such lack of alternate possibilities would particularly apply to God and His creatures.

The Molinist Response

The fourth objection is one raised by Luis de Molina in the 16th century and now championed by philosopher William Lane Craig. Essentially, it argues that if a person P were in situation S, a person P would freely choose X. It is counterfactual in the sense that the existence of S and P are not necessary and each counterfactual of freedom corresponds to each possible person. It is unclear if it refutes any specific premise. It is worth pointing out that Molinists argue that God possesses knowledge of all such counterfactuals. I agree with this. However, the problem once again arises that God knows which S, P, and X will obtain. All Molinism adds is the inclusion of the background surrounding the choice of a person P. God, regardless, knows that X and knows that S. Both must obtain. Indeed, God ensures S, P, and X through the act of creation, making my reply here similar in a manner to my reply to the Psychologist Response. As Gale has noted, presuming that the counterfactuals of freedom is a coherent concept, God chooses which people and situations to actualize (hence the "counterfactual" part). And I do not think that the counterfactuals of freedom constitute a coherent idea. If this counterfactuals hold, then I cannot act contrary to them. Thus, these counterfactuals of freedom constitute a type of "propositional" determinism, since I am incapable of acting otherwise of that counterfactual. Others might be interested in other objections namely the Grounding Objection. I would advise readers to go ahead and read the philosophical literature on it – it is quite interesting.
 
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Tiphereth

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A tutorial in propositional logic

The logical operators used in propositional logic are ¬, ∧, ∨, →, ↔, and ⊢.

¬ is the operator for logical negation and indicates the falsity of the atomic formula it precedes. For example, ¬p indicates the falsity of the atomic formula p. In English, it is generally indicated by the words "not..." or "it is false that...".

∧ is the operator for logical conjunction. It connects two well-formed formulas and indicates the truth of both well-formed formulas, which are called conjuncts. For example, p ∧ q indicates the truth of the conjunct p and the truth of conjunct q. In English, it is generally indicated by the words "and" or "but".

Wffs (well-formed formulas) are syntactically correct strings according to the syntax of the relevant formal logic. In this case, the formal logic is propositional logic.

∨ is the operator for logical disjunction. It connects two wffs, which are called disjuncts. Logical disjunction indicates that at least disjunct is true. Hence it is possible that both disjuncts are true. For example, p ∨ q indicates that at least one of the disjuncts is true. It may be that p is true, but q is false or that q is true and p is false or it may be that both p and q are true. In English, it is generally indicated by the word "or".

→ is the operator for conditionals. It involves two wffs, which are known as an antecedent and a consequent. Conditionals indicate that the truth of the antecedent guarantees the truth of the consequent or that the falsity of the consequent guarantees the falsity of the antecedent. For example, p → q indicates that the truth of p is sufficient for q and the truth of q is necessary for the truth of p. p is the antecedent and q is the consequent. That is, given p, q is true. It cannot be that q is false and p is true. q is thus necessary for p. In English, it is generally indicated by the words "if...then" or "implies".

↔ is the operator for biconditionals. It involves two wffs and it is indicated that both wffs are necessary and sufficient conditions for each other. For example, p ↔ q indicates that p → q and that q → p. In English, it is generally indicated by the words "if and only if" which is usually abbreviated as "iff".

⊢ is the operator for inference. It involves two wffs and it operates the same as a conditional. It indicates that the latter wff is derived from the former wff. However, this is a logical inference and thus the latter is a theorem of propositional logic. In English, it is generally indicated by the words "is derived from" or "derives" or "infers" or "is inferred from".

There are several inferences rules in propositional logic, as stated succinctly in Wikipedia:

Basic and Derived Argument Forms

Name Sequent Description

Modus Ponens ((p → q) ∧ p) ├ q if p then q; p; therefore q

Modus Tollens ((p → q) ∧ ¬q) ├ ¬p if p then q; not q; therefore not p

Hypothetical Syllogism ((p → q) ∧ (q → r)) ├ (p → r) if p then q; if q then r; therefore, if p then r

Disjunctive Syllogism ((p ∨ q) ∧ ¬p) ├ q Either p or q; not p; therefore, q

Constructive Dilemma ((p → q) ∧ (r → s) ∧ (p ∨ r)) ├ (q ∨ s) If p then q; and if r then s; but either p or r; therefore either q or s

Destructive Dilemma ((p → q) ∧ (r → s) ∧ (¬q ∨ ¬s)) ├ (¬p ∨ ¬r) If p then q; and if r then s; but either not q or not s; therefore either not p or not r

Simplification (p ∧ q) ├ p p and q are true; therefore p is true

Conjunction p, q ├ (p ∧ q) p and q are true separately; therefore they are true conjointly

Addition p ├ (p ∨ q) p is true; therefore the disjunction (p or q) is true

Composition ((p → q) ∧ (p → r)) ├ (p → (q ∧ r)) If p then q; and if p then r; therefore if p is true then q and r are true

De Morgan's Theorem (1) ¬(p ∧ q) ├ (¬p ∨ ¬q) The negation of (p and q) is equiv. to (not p or not q)

De Morgan's Theorem (2) ¬(p ∨ q) ├ (¬p ∧ ¬q) The negation of (p or q) is equiv. to (not p and not q)

Commutation (1) (p ∨ q) ├ (q ∨ p) (p or q) is equiv. to (q or p)

Commutation (2) (p ∧ q) ├ (q ∧ p) (p and q) is equiv. to (q and p)

Association (1) (p ∨ (q ∨ r)) ├ ((p ∨ q) ∨ r) p or (q or r) is equiv. to (p or q) or r

Association (2) (p ∧ (q ∧ r)) ├ ((p ∧ q) ∧ r) p and (q and r) is equiv. to (p and q) and r

Distribution (1) (p ∧ (q ∨ r)) ├ ((p ∧ q) ∨ (p ∧ r)) p and (q or r) is equiv. to (p and q) or (p and r)

Distribution (2) (p ∨ (q ∧ r)) ├ ((p ∨ q) ∧ (p ∨ r)) p or (q and r) is equiv. to (p or q) and (p or r)

Double Negation p ├ ¬¬p p is equivalent to the negation of not p

Transposition (p → q) ├ (¬q → ¬p) If p then q is equiv. to if not q then not p

Material Implication (p → q) ├ (¬p ∨ q) If p then q is equiv. to either not p or q

Material Equivalence (1) (p ↔ q) ├ ((p → q) ∧ (q → p)) (p is equiv. to q) means, (if p is true then q is true) and (if q is true then p is true)

Material Equivalence (2) (p ↔ q) ├ ((p ∧ q) ∨ (¬q ∧ ¬p)) (p is equiv. to q) means, either (p and q are true) or ( both p and q are false)

Material Equivalence (3) (p ↔ q) ├ ((p ∨ ¬q) ∧ (q ∨ ¬p)) (p is equiv. to q) means, both (p or not q is true) and (not p or q is true)

Exportation ((p ∧ q) → r) ├ (p → (q → r)) from (if p and q are true then r is true) we can prove (if q is true then r is true, if p is true)

Importation (p → (q → r)) ├ ((p ∧ q) → r)

Tautology (1) p ├ (p ∨ p) p is true is equiv. to p is true or p is true

Tautology (2) p ├ (p ∧ p) p is true is equiv. to p is true and p is true

Tertium non datur (Law of Excluded Middle) ├ (p ∨ ¬ p) p or not p is true

A tutorial in predicate logic

Predicate logic is an extension of propositional logic. It incorporates the above logical operators. It also includes predicates, constants, and variables. It also introduces two quantifiers: ∀ and ∃.

A predicate is a modifier of a constant or variable. For example, in "John is tall", John is a constant modified by the predicate "tall". Predicates can be considered properties. Predicates are indicated by capital letters, such as P, Q, R and so on.

A variable is an unspecified thing, or unknown. For example, in "x is tall", x is a variable modified by the predicate "tall". Variables are indicated by lower-case letters towards the end of the alphabet: x,y,z.

A constant is a specified thing or individual. For example, in "John is tall", John is a constant. Constants are indicated by lower-case letters starting from the beginning of the alphabet: a, b, c.

A predicate relation is formed by a predicate and a constant or variable. For example, Px is a predicate relation indicating that x is predicated by P. These constitute wffs.

The quantifier ∀ quantifies a predicate over everything. It is a universal quantifier. For example, to state that ∀xPx indicates that for all x, x is predicated by P. This can be translated as everything is P. This quantification can be restricted by indicating a UD: universe of discourse. For example, one might label the UD as "cars." Thus, ∀xPx indicates that for all x in the universe of cars, x is P. This is generally indicated in English by "for all things" or "for all x" or "for everything".

The quantifier ∃ quantifies a predicate over at least one thing. It is an existential quantifier. For example, to state that ∃xPx indicates that for at least one x, x is predicated by P. This can be translated as some things are P. This quantification can also be restricted under a UD. This is generally indicated in English by "for some things" or "for some x" or "for at least one x" or "for at least one thing."

There are four new inference rules in predicate logic: UG (universal generalization), EG (existential generalization), UI (universal instantiation), and EI (existential instantiation). Here is a good place for an introduction to all four.

I will not employ modal logic, possible world semantics, nor epistemic logic in order to make the formalism relevatively simple to grasp.
 
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phsyxx

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this is the pre-determined plan of God.

BINGO!
pre-determined!
And, God's perfect plan is happening, and it was planned before creation and all of that complicated development bloo-blah stuff.
So, how can any act that is occuring NOT be in the plan of God?
Don't tell me it's free will, because that would imply that God does not have control over you, and that would also imply that he is not omnipotent, but rather powerless.
If God is powerless, he's no God at all.

If God is omnipotent, there is his will, and his will ONLY.
All others play to his tune.
IE - no free will for you matey.

God on the other hand does have the overulling will and as such, according to his rightiousness, can and will allow certain things to happen in a persons life

yeah. ALLOW.
As in - that is HIS will, to ALLOW it to happen. With full-knowledge that it WILL happen because he's ALLOWING it (non-specified event) to happen.
Thereby meaning, "If God wants it to happen, it will happen".
 
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smog

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Tiphereth: how would you respond to the following arguments?

God as an infinite improbability drive

Let's say person X can choose to do A, B or C, all three sensible options. If, before X can choose, I speak up and say X will choose to do A, I have one chance out of three to be right. If I am indeed right, this does not negate free will at all. I could have been wrong. Yet... I'm right :) Therefore, what I propose is this: take God's omniscience away and replace it by insane luck. In other words, God doesn't know anything about your choices. He only guesses, but it so happens that he always guesses correctly because he is unbelievably lucky. In effect, this is just like omniscience, but free will remains miraculously unscathed.

You could say that nobody has any choices because they cannot choose anything contrary to God's guess. That is a quite valid objection, but then we wouldn't be talking about God's "luck", and the concept of luck is what makes this argument different. Let's see it in a "possible worlds" setting: assuming a finite universe with a beginning and an end, there is a finite amount of choices to guess. One can imagine one universe for every possible combination of guesses God can make. In one of them, God will miraculously guess properly all the time. If that God claims to be omniscient, he will actually be right. Technically, it works. Despite being ruled by an omniscient entity, we don't see how this could attack free will. He's just... lucky.

Disregarding deities, there is another way to understand this scenario. Imagine that there is a box hidden in the universe that contains a large hard drive. That hard drive lists, for every person who ever existed and will ever exist, what choices they will make. If we assume those records are generated randomly, it is possible that by insane luck they get everything right. Would that negate free will? I don't think it could.

The conclusion I see is subtle, so I will spell it out. What my examples show is that you can build scenarios where there is effective omniscience yet free will still exists. The hidden cost is that you cannot be objectively certain that there is indeed omniscience. But since you can never be certain anyway, I'd argue this was always the case. In every situation where God is "omniscient", you could reasonably hypothesize that he is indeed omniscient but because of pure luck - and that loophole is arguably large enough for free will to sneak through.

Interactive knowledge

How does God know what we will choose anyway? We could posit that he simply asks us. Imagine we have a double in a parallel universe who is forced to tell God the truth. If he asks that double "what will your choice be if you are placed in this situation", he will receive the answer and our free will is preserved for the most part. Furthermore, there is no logical reason that this process could not be "atemporal" (I'm adding scare quotes because an atemporal intelligent entity is in itself a ridiculous idea - understand it more like "outside of our time", as if there was some sort of super-time God does his stuff in).

Correlative knowledge

- God knows P does X iff P chooses to do X
- P chooses to do X iff God knows it

Now it's important to see what I'm doing there. What I am doing is that I am correlating knowledge and choice, in effect saying that they are actually the same thing. This is akin to entangled quantum pairs: they are indifferently 0 or 1, but they always have the same value, regardless of where they are.

Choosing X means God knew it. God knowing X means you chose it. There is no logical ordering of both events. They are correlated. A bit like in the previous example, this means that if God is atemporal (I'm not putting any more scare quotes but I'm thinking them), our choices are as well. That is not such a silly position: atemporally, each of us could have a large grid of (situation, action) pairs and each of those grids "could have been different", just like God's knowledge "could have been different". Then when we choose in the real world, we just look up what we atemporally decided to do in the situation we are in and then we do that.
 
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elman

elman
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Originally Posted by elman
Love is helping someone in need. See the parable of the good samaritan. Also see the description in Matt 25:31 and following. I can tell a computer responds to its programming and cannot decide to love me as in help me or hurt me as in harm me. Are you unable to tell a computer is not able to make any decision but simply responds to programming? Which post?

But what is the difference with a human? You can consider that a human being's brain is his "programming". What is the difference then? If there is any part of our brain that is "special" and gives rise to that difference, what would happen if we cut a human brain open, extracted the special part and connected it to a machine?
You would have a machine with a human brain, not just a machine. The human brain is able to chose to love you or hurt you. A machine is not able to chose to do that. A human brain is not progamed by some outside entity. We decide things as humans that are not forced on us by outside forces.
 
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elman

elman
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So now you've moved the criteria back to a decision. There's nothing wrong with that in itself, but you've not answered the question, since you still haven't told us how we can tell whether a computer (or a human) is being loving or not. What you now need to tell us is how you tell whether a human, cat or computer is deciding something, or is just "responding to programming."

As a way of giving us the criteria, you might want to consider what's the most decision-like thing that isn't a decision under this definition you're giving us, and what's the least decision-like thing that is a decision.

Look at the parable of the Good Samaritan. That is a person decided to help someone in need. You would not seriously argue that all humans are programed to react this way would you?
 
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elman

elman
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I have responded to what you said, allbeit sarcastically.


Ok.....I tried reading, but unfortunately it didn't make any sense.....


Whatever causes you to make choice "X" could be any number of things, but as long as the outcome is known, the action is determined.
SIMPLE.
Stop trying to appeal to the "but I could do this instead", it's a flawed argument as you assume that God's knowledge is dependent on your actions.

Look at your life like a videotape, if that helps.
God sees the video, like he's watched it a hundred times over. He knows when it comes to point "X" in the film where you make choice "X" it will always happen and it always has the same outcome.
Now, as a character, you BELIEVE you can make a different choice, and indeed a CHOICE - independent of anything, but the viewer - GOD, knows you DON'T.

In this sense you have the ILLUSION of choice, and it seems real from the human perspective.
BUT it's illusion, and, seen from the Godly perspective, the illusion is shattered.
It is a flawed concept to see our life as a video. We are the producers and directors and actors in this ongoing video. Why would you believe our choices are not real? What evidence do you have they are illusion? Are you asking me to believe something when there is no evidence to support it?
 
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elman

elman
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Fine then, I'll repeat it, although it's been stated several times by me and others.

"Just because God knows the future doesn't mean we don't have a choice."

This just shows an unwillingness to think fully about the implications of God's perfect knowledge. If God knows what we will "choose" we cannot "choose" not to do that.
That's not a choice, it's not free will.

All responses so far have revolved either around assertions with no argument (like DarkWinter's) appeals to cause (such as elman's first, if I recall - God doesn't cause our choice - but the argument doesn't claim that) or appealing to some contorted logic of our decision causing God's knowledge retroactively.
This last one is the most interesting, but simply by acknowledging the fact that, at this moment in time, God knows your choice, the only get-out is that you've already decided, which isn't much of a get out at all.

Given that God has known forever, you must have been in a state of "decided" forever, which doesn't make sense since you haven't existed forever. Hence, reductio ad absurdum. If we assume that's not absurd, then there is no time where you ever actually made the decision, since God has always known the decision, and you've therefore always already made the decision. How exactly have you made a decision, if there was never a time when you hadn't? You never actually did the "making." Another absurdity.

Your problem is you cannot believe God knows the future without determining what the future is. When you say God knowing the future takes away our free will you are saying God is the cause of our decisions and not us. Therefore this statment of yours above is incorrect: "All responses so far have revolved either around assertions with no argument (like DarkWinter's) appeals to cause (such as elman's first, if I recall - God doesn't cause our choice - but the argument doesn't claim that)"
 
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elman

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=smog;34975608]Okay. What if I knew what you were going to choose. What if I could look at anyone in the world and know with absolute certainty all of their future choices. Could this happen if they had free will? I think it's easier to discuss this if we get God out of the picture.

Also, when people say that pre-knowledge implies that free will does not exist, it is by contraposition of the fact that (according to their definition) free will precludes pre-knowledge.

Yes I can know my dog is going to come to me when I call him. He still has the option to not come. The difference when we take God out of the picture, is I make mistakes in my knowledge of the future. God does not.

A tyrant forces people to do X when it is contrary to their will. If you make it so everyone wants to do X (and want to want to do X, etc.), it can't be tyranny.
It may not be tyranny but humans are not involved. If you make it where everyone wants to do x then the tyrant is not forcing people to do X when it is contrary to their will, because their will has been programmed where it is not contrary to their will.
 
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elman

elman
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God knows that tomorrow you will wear a blue-striped pair of socks amidst the one hundred pairs of socks you have. Now, can you pick something else instead, perhaps that black-and-white pair of socks?
Yes I can pick something else and if I do that means you were wrong in your assumption that God knew I would wear the bluestripted sockes because God does not make mistakes.
It seems that if you can, God can be mistaken. But, if God can't be mistaken you must pick the blue-striped pair. But, if you must pick something with no other possibility, what happened to your free will? This is what the issue is like.
God cannot be mistaken therefore your first assumption cannot be correct if that is not what I am going to chose.

The argument can be stated in the following way.
If a person has free will, then if a person does a particular action, then it can be that a person does not do that particular action.
Not understandable.

If God is omniscient, then God's knowledge is infallible concerning all states of affairs.
If God's knowledge is infallible concerning all states of affairs, then God knows that a person does a particular action.
If God knows that a person does a particular action, then it is false that it can be that a person does not do that particular action.
It is false that it can be that a person does not do that particular action and it is false that it can be that a person does not do that particular action.
Therefore, either it is false that God is omniscient or it is false that a person has free will.
Or it was false that God knew the person was going to do something he was not going to do.



The Boethian Response

A second objection is that God is essentially atemporal and that allows God to observe the future. It does not refute any specific premise and indeed fails to resolve the problem. All it provides is that in the timeless realm, it is always known that a person does do any particular action. While the Boethian Response explains such essential omniscience, it does not constitute a cogent rejoinder since theological fatalism already presumes such essential omniscience.
GobblyGook. God is not limited in our time frame and His knowledge does not control what happens in our time frame. He allows us to exist in our time frame and make our own choices. Some of the choices are not what He would like for us to do. Free will is about the cause of our actions. If we are the cause of our actions we have free will and what anybody knew about what we were going to do does not remove the cause of our actions and therefore does not effect our free will.
 
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elman

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If God is all knowing and is not bound by time (his creation) than he knows the outcome of all events past, present, and future. From the moment of creation he knew that Adam would sin, that he would have to send his son to die on a cross, and even what everyone of us will eat for breakfast tomorrow, and how we will die.

Therefore if the outcome of every action and decision in our lives already has a determined outcome, we have no real choice in our lives, free will is just an illusion.

The only possible conclusions I can make from this are:

A) We are just "pets" if you will of God or some intelligent being, our lives have no real signficance sine we do not control them.

-or-

B) God does exist, but is not the God of the Bible, because that God could not exist because in order to be God, the being must be all knowing, and if our actions aren't predetermined it implies that there is something that God does not know. So if God did not know that Adam would sin, than he was not truly God.

I'd like to hear what you have to say, until then take chances -be a fatalist.
Repeat God is able to know what we are going to do and still let us make our own decision. God knew I would sin and God knew Adam would sin, but He created us anyway and give us the ability to chose. Our ability to chose is not an illusion. It is real and real consequences flow from our choices.
 
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phsyxx

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Quote:
Originally Posted by elman

You would have a machine with a human brain, not just a machine. The human brain is able to chose to love you or hurt you. A machine is not able to chose to do that. A human brain is not progamed by some outside entity. We decide things as humans that are not forced on us by outside forces.

Elman, have you...by any chance, read "I, Robot" by Isaac Asimov?
 
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