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Astronomical questions about the Big Bang

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shernren

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It seems to be a huge leap from finding this anamoly to finding enough dark matter to balance the reaction that was big bang. The equation still seems to be fudged, since the amount of dark matter is determined to be whatever was enough to BB work.

The enormous unlikelihood of BB is measured in terms of statistical absurdities. Mathematically, why is it any less absurd that the same light or nonmatter or whatver did its thing in situ a trillion, trillion times over on Day one of six?

Busterdog must know a lot more astrophysics than I do, since he apparently knows that not enough dark matter has been detected to make up for the amount predicted by the Big Bang theories. Tell me two things, O wise one:

1. How much dark matter has been detected to date, and

2. How much dark matter is needed for the Big Bang to work?
 

Citanul

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While we're on the subject, I'd also like to know about this:

The enormous unlikelihood of BB is measured in terms of statistical absurdities.

Leaving aside just how you can measure somethine with "statisitcal absurdities", I'd like to know how the likelihood of the Big Bang was calculated. Can someone point me in the direction of the repeated experiments/observations that led to the calculations?
 
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busterdog

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Busterdog must know a lot more astrophysics than I do, since he apparently knows that not enough dark matter has been detected to make up for the amount predicted by the Big Bang theories. Tell me two things, O wise one:

1. How much dark matter has been detected to date, and

2. How much dark matter is needed for the Big Bang to work?

1. Way less than enough.
2. A heck of a lot more.

In fact, I will accept your "wise" crack, since I am one of the very few here who ever admits being wrong.

However, not on this one.

By the way, what am I supposed about being mocked here? Do I challenge you to a duel? Tell you I am much better at some irrelevant skill like rhetoric or bar fighting? Do I argue about your grasp of the Gospel? What?
 
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busterdog

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While we're on the subject, I'd also like to know about this:



Leaving aside just how you can measure somethine with "statisitcal absurdities", I'd like to know how the likelihood of the Big Bang was calculated. Can someone point me in the direction of the repeated experiments/observations that led to the calculations?

On a number of related problems with BB:

http://www.geraldschroeder.com/tuning.html

[FONT=Arial, American Classic, Book Antiqua]Universal Acceptance Of Fine Tuning [/FONT]
Besides the BBC video, the scientific establishment's most prestigious journals, and its most famous physicists and cosmologists, have all gone on record as recognizing the objective truth of the fine-tuning. The August '97 issue of "Science" (the most prestigious peer-reviewed scientific journal in the United States) featured an article entitled "Science and God: A Warming Trend?" Here is an excerpt:

The fact that the universe exhibits many features that foster organic life -- such as precisely those physical constants that result in planets and long-lived stars -- also has led some scientists to speculate that some divine influence may be present.

In his best-selling book, "A Brief History of Time", Stephen Hawking (perhaps the world's most famous cosmologist) refers to the phenomenon as "remarkable."

"The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers (i.e. the constants of physics) seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life". "For example," Hawking writes, "if the electric charge of the electron had been only slightly different, stars would have been unable to burn hydrogen and helium, or else they would not have exploded. It seems clear that there are relatively few ranges of values for the numbers (for the constants) that would allow for development of any form of intelligent life. Most sets of values would give rise to universes that, although they might be very beautiful, would contain no one able to wonder at that beauty."

Hawking then goes on to say that he can appreciate taking this as possible evidence of "a divine purpose in Creation and the choice of the laws of science (by God)" (ibid. p. 125).

Dr. Gerald Schroeder, author of "Genesis and the Big Bang" and "The Science of Life" was formerly with the M.I.T. physics department. He adds the following examples:

1) Professor Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in high energy physics (a field of science that deals with the very early universe), writing in the journal "Scientific American", reflects on

how surprising it is that the laws of nature and the initial conditions of the universe should allow for the existence of beings who could observe it. Life as we know it would be impossible if any one of several physical quantities had slightly different values.

Although Weinberg is a self-described agnostic, he cannot but be astounded by the extent of the fine-tuning. He goes on to describe how a beryllium isotope having the minuscule half life of 0.0000000000000001 seconds must find and absorb a helium nucleus in that split of time before decaying. This occurs only because of a totally unexpected, exquisitely precise, energy match between the two nuclei. If this did not occur there would be none of the heavier elements. No carbon, no nitrogen, no life. Our universe would be composed of hydrogen and helium. But this is not the end of Professor Weinberg's wonder at our well-tuned universe. He continues:

One constant does seem to require an incredible fine-tuning -- The existence of life of any kind seems to require a cancellation between different contributions to the vacuum energy, accurate to about 120 decimal places.

This means that if the energies of the Big Bang were, in arbitrary units, not:

100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000,

but instead:
100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000001,

there would be no life of any sort in the entire universe because as Weinberg states:

the universe either would go through a complete cycle of expansion and contraction before life could arise, or would expand so rapidly that no galaxies or stars could form.

2) Michael Turner, the widely quoted astrophysicist at the University of Chicago and Fermilab, describes the fine-tuning of the universe with a simile:

The precision is as if one could throw a dart across the entire universe and hit a bulls eye one millimeter in diameter on the other side.

3) Roger Penrose, the Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics at the University of Oxford, discovers that the likelihood of the universe having usable energy (low entropy) at the creation is even more astounding,

namely, an accuracy of one part out of ten to the power of ten to the power of 123. This is an extraordinary figure. One could not possibly even write the number down in full, in our ordinary denary (power of ten) notation: it would be one followed by ten to the power of 123 successive zeros! (That is a million billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion zeros.)

Penrose continues,

Even if we were to write a zero on each separate proton and on each separate neutron in the entire universe -- and we could throw in all the other particles as well for good measure -- we should fall far short of writing down the figure needed. The precision needed to set the universe on its course is to be in no way inferior to all that extraordinary precision that we have already become accustomed to in the superb dynamical equations (Newton's, Maxwell's, Einstein's) which govern the behavior of things from moment to moment.

Cosmologists debate whether the space-time continuum is finite or infinite, bounded or unbounded. In all scenarios, the fine-tuning remains the same.

It is appropriate to complete this section on "fine tuning" with the eloquent words of Professor John Wheeler:

To my mind, there must be at the bottom of it all, not an utterly simple equation, but an utterly simple IDEA. And to me that idea, when we finally discover it, will be so compelling, and so inevitable, so beautiful, we will all say to each other, "How could it have ever been otherwise?"
 
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Assyrian

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By the way, what am I supposed about being mocked here? Do I challenge you to a duel? Tell you I am much better at some irrelevant skill like rhetoric or bar fighting? Do I argue about your grasp of the Gospel? What?
Fish Slapping at dawn! Yay!
 
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busterdog

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A little old, but on point.

New Scientist, 9th Sept. 2006, p. 12. The article is entitled "Dark Matter 'Proof' Called into Doubt."
University of Arizona in Tucson announced on 21 August that his team has 'direct proof of dark matter's existence,' it seemed that the issue had been settled. Now proponents of the so-called modified theories of gravity, who explain the motion of stars and galaxies without resorting to dark matter, have hit back and are suggesting that Clowe's team has jumped the gun.
"'One should not draw premature conclusions about the existence of dark matter without a careful analysis of alternative gravity theories,' writes John Moffatt, of the University of Waterloo in Ontario, Canada, who has pioneered an alternative theory of gravity known as MOG (www.arxiv.org/astro-ph/0608675 )...Moffatt claims that his MOG theory can explain the Bullet Cluster without an ounce of dark matter."
 
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Citanul

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busterdog

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All that link appears to point out is that the universe is very dependent on a particular set of initial conditions. I don't see anywhere any explanations of how probabilities associated with the big bang were calculated.

That is the subject of much dispute as to whether it is a probability at all. I think it is clear that it is. Your phraseology "very dependent on a particular set of intial conditions" implies as much, unless you simply assume that those conditions did in fact exist 15 billion years ago.

The vacuum energy problem is a related problem regarding the rate of expansion post BB.
 
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Citanul

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That is the subject of much dispute as to whether it is a probability at all. I think it is clear that it is.

I'm not quite sure how there can be dispute about whether it's a probability or not. If an event has occurred then it's possible to assign a probability to it. What I'm questioning is whether it's possible to calculate the probability of the Big Bang occurring.
 
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pgp_protector

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If I make a 4.7564783 Pound Cake, and then analyze the cake, the requirements of that cake to make that cake will be quite exact.

When we measure our universe & it's laws, of course the requirements to get this universe will be exact.

The problem is you're trying to measure the box from inside the box, with no idea if there's anything outside the box & no way to tell if there even is an outside to the box.
 
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busterdog

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If I make a 4.7564783 Pound Cake, and then analyze the cake, the requirements of that cake to make that cake will be quite exact.

When we measure our universe & it's laws, of course the requirements to get this universe will be exact.

As long as we all agree on your methods. I think they speak for themselves.

I wonder if you are also probably right? Since you know you are right then you must also be probably right. Just like when my Mom used to say, "Because I said so."

In the creation forum, we also know we are right and therefore we are also probably right. Works for me.
 
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busterdog

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I'm not quite sure how there can be dispute about whether it's a probability or not. If an event has occurred then it's possible to assign a probability to it. What I'm questioning is whether it's possible to calculate the probability of the Big Bang occurring.

Lets take two branches of the equation: 1. Background radiation allegedly being strong evidence makes BB very likely; 2. the fine tuning problem being extraordinarily unlikely, therefore what?

The argument is 1. means 2. is of no concern. I think that reasoning is quite flawed.
 
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Assyrian

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Lets take two branches of the equation: 1. Background radiation allegedly being strong evidence makes BB very likely; 2. the fine tuning problem being extraordinarily unlikely, therefore what?

The argument is 1. means 2. is of no concern. I think that reasoning is quite flawed.
But we can measure the fine tuning. Those are the numbers in our universe. Whether they are extraordinary or not say nothing about whether our universe came from a Big Bang or not. It is no more an argument against the Big Bang than saying pgp's 4.7564783 Pound Cake is highly unlikely because no one could make a cake that precise. The evidence that he made the cake, (Red Shift and Background Radiation) are unaffected by the exact composition of the cake.
 
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Assyrian

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According to the prosecution, Mrs Petersen broke into her neighbour house, went into the kitchen and battered the neighbour over the head a cast iron skillet. Mrs Petersen denies ever being in the neighbours house let alone her kitchen. However DNA evidence from epithelial cells on the kitchen worktop and the skillet handle prove that she was there.

No says the defence, that reasoning is quite flawed. Only a half dozen of Mrs Petersen's epithelial cells were collected in the kitchen. But how many cells does it take to lift a skillet? Clearly there weren't nearly enough of her cells in the kitchen to commit the crime.
 
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Citanul

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Lets take two branches of the equation: 1. Background radiation allegedly being strong evidence makes BB very likely; 2. the fine tuning problem being extraordinarily unlikely, therefore what?

You're not getting my point. It's only possible to talk about statistically measuring the likelihood of the Big Bang if you can show how the probabilities can be calculated, and you haven't done so.
 
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busterdog

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You're not getting my point. It's only possible to talk about statistically measuring the likelihood of the Big Bang if you can show how the probabilities can be calculated, and you haven't done so.

Not at all. We simply differ on whether there are in fact different measures of probability. The fine tuning is not an issue, since you rest comfortably on other grounds. To you the fine tuning argument is like the incredibly unlikely coincidence that chicken actually tastes like what it tastes like rather than all the other possible ways that chicken could taste.

I simply say that when you find a problem in how this chain events happened 15 billions years ago, you are not tasting chicken now, you are finding out why you shouldn't rest so comfortably on extrapolations backwards from what you can presently taste, despite your confidence in what you presently see..
 
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busterdog

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So essentially, you don't know how much dark matter there is, you don't know how much dark matter is needed, but according to your expert judgment there is way less than enough?

Oh, the hubris.

I needn't deal in quantities. The fine tuning of the BB energies requires a quantity of BB that has been modeled, but never measured. It is only this year that any quantity at all has been allegedly detected.

If there is hubris in rejecting the modeling that has been done, I don't have a problem with that.

I am reacting to big crunch, big tear and the tremendous uncertainty that has been admitted for the entire model. This is open to widely divergent debate because the quantities have been modeled, but aren't measured.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Lets take two branches of the equation: 1. Background radiation allegedly being strong evidence makes BB very likely; 2. the fine tuning problem being extraordinarily unlikely, therefore what?

The argument is 1. means 2. is of no concern. I think that reasoning is quite flawed.
There are two theories that deal with the fine tuning issue quite nicely.
 
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