Virginia Tech and Calvinism

[bradfordl]

I think Jesus disagrees with you. Consider:

Luke 12:24
Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds!

Apparently God thinks very much more of us than you give Him credit for. Jesus came to die for us, not the average atom or blade of grass.

No disagreement with my Redeemer at all. You (if elect) are of more value than a raven. That does not imply a level of importance that obligates God to explain one single thing to you, much less the purpose of any of His decretive will. Go read Job. Maybe it will convince you to do as that righteous man did and say:

Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

I know that after I have done all that I can, and even double that, in my life, the best I can do is join my fellow-servants and say:
"We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."
I know that my King and Redeemer has set upon me His unsearchable, immeasurable love, for no reason that lies within me, for I am but a worm.
I know that He has promised to work all things together for my good. He has marked me with the very blood He shed on a tree, clothed me in the righteousness He performed by imputation, took my sin upon Himself and paid its awful penalty at Calvary, arose to defeat death for me, ascended to the right hand of the Father to ever make intercession for me, sent His Holy Spirit to comfort me, and will one day recieve me into everlasting joy.

Why would I expect that He should need to explain any of His plans to me? He is my Prince and Master, I am His unworthy purchased possession. I will be satisfied with what I know now, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

 

[Boxmaker]

No disagreement with my Redeemer at all. You (if elect) are of more value than a raven. That does not imply a level of importance that obligates God to explain one single thing to you, much less the purpose of any of His decretive will. Go read Job. Maybe it will convince you to do as that righteous man did and say:
I know that after I have done all that I can, and even double that, in my life, the best I can do is join my fellow-servants and say:
"We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."
I know that my King and Redeemer has set upon me His unsearchable, immeasurable love, for no reason that lies within me, for I am but a worm.
I know that He has promised to work all things together for my good. He has marked me with the very blood He shed on a tree, clothed me in the righteousness He performed by imputation, took my sin upon Himself and paid its awful penalty at Calvary, arose to defeat death for me, ascended to the right hand of the Father to ever make intercession for me, sent His Holy Spirit to comfort me, and will one day recieve me into everlasting joy.

Why would I expect that He should need to explain any of His plans to me? He is my Prince and Master, I am His unworthy purchased possession. I will be satisfied with what I know now, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Thats disturbing. God only loves the elect and turely hates the rest. Not a passave hate, mind you, but God activly hates them.

 

[bradfordl]

Thats disturbing. God only loves the elect and turely hates the rest. Not a passave hate, mind you, but God activly hates them.

Disturbing?

Psa 139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
Psa 139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
Psa 139:19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
Psa 139:20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
Psa 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
Psa 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Does that disturb you as well?

But I find it curious that you take all that I posted, and reply to the one small phrase "(if elect)". Do you imagine the reprobate to be of more value than a raven? I don't see any scripture that relagates a raven to hell. I have the opinion that this is just another indication of your drastically inflated idea of the importance of humanity.... God adjusts His plans to accomodate our decisions, God shouldn't do anything that we can't see the purpose of, etc.
You make Him out to be a solicitous, nattering old fella wishing us wayward kids of his would just listen to his advice, because if we don't, some arbitrary rule will mean they will have to go to hell.

That is not the God Who created this universe, not the God of scripture.

 

[Boxmaker]

Disturbing?
Does that disturb you as well?

But I find it curious that you take all that I posted, and reply to the one small phrase "(if elect)". Do you imagine the reprobate to be of more value than a raven? I don't see any scripture that relagates a raven to hell. I have the opinion that this is just another indication of your drastically inflated idea of the importance of humanity.... God adjusts His plans to accomodate our decisions, God shouldn't do anything that we can't see the purpose of, etc.
You make Him out to be a solicitous, nattering old fella wishing us wayward kids of his would just listen to his advice, because if we don't, some arbitrary rule will mean they will have to go to hell.

That is not the God Who created this universe, not the God of scripture.

[BIBLE]Romans 5 - Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[/BIBLE]

Even the unrighteous are worth more to God than the Raven. One mans sacrifice brings life to all men. All Men. Not all men accept that gift from God and will go to hell as the next verse teaches. None the less, Jesus's act was for All Men. That is the God of the Bible.

 

[Elderone]

God exists in all dimensions. There are some 13 known dimensions and I believe that number has increased. God the Fater exists in all of those dimensions. Jesus exists in our dimensions plus the other "Godly" dimensions, same for the Holy Spirt. They exist as three seperate entities as we humans can precieve entities but they are one God because they are all linked in the "Godly" dimensions. One God, three persons = Trinity!

A decent, partial, explanation but not one whereby someone could say they understand the Trinity after reading it.

In your post #18 you said of the shooting "it was senseless". Do you really believe that?

 

[bradfordl]

Even the unrighteous are worth more to God than the Raven. One mans sacrifice brings life to all men. All Men. Not all men accept that gift from God and will go to hell as the next verse teaches. None the less, Jesus's act was for All Men. That is the God of the Bible.

More of your drastically inflated idea of the importance of humanity. You misinterpret the "all" to mean "every" because you presume great importance upon "every" man. That is the source of your inability to accept the truth of the Bible. You read where God creates vessels of destruction to show forth His wrath, and you dance around it in a hilarious waltz because it seems so.... so... unfair for God to treat such grand beings as humans like that. It is repulsive to you to think that there isn't some valuable spark in men that would enable them to "choose" salvation independent of God's intervening irresistably in their hearts. That would force you to accept your own complete insignificance in creation apart from Christ, and worse, your own wicked hatred for God apart from Christ, and that would burst your bubble of self-importance. So you keep trying to make those blinders fit. As long as your head is swelled enough, they stay on, but as scripture and events begin to reduce that swelling, it gets harder and harder to keep them on. Which is why you keep hanging around this one forum where biblical truth is believed.... you want with all your might to find a way to refute it, but you just can't. If you had, you would have left long ago to go waltz with fellow self-worshippers in other parts of CF.

So you stick around trying to find holes to dig your finger, looking for that chink in the armor, debating incoherently when you find none, because with that you can at least maintain the appearance of valid cause to reject scripture you don't like.

Well, to address your willfully silly and abstract use of a bloodbath to attack biblical truth, Blacksburg is 150 miles down the road from me. I have lifelong friends who taught there, who are alumni, whose children go there, and will go there. I am surrounded by grieving Hokies in my little town, and I take serious umbrage with any chuckleheaded use of the sorrows of my friends to support lying doctrines. Please find some other bone to chew on.

Job 14:1 "Man who is born of a woman is few of days and full of trouble.
Job 14:2 He comes out like a flower and withers; he flees like a shadow and continues not.

Psa 62:9 Those of low estate are but a breath; those of high estate are a delusion; in the balances they go up; they are together lighter than a breath.

Ecc 6:11 The more words, the more vanity, and what is the advantage to man?
Ecc 6:12 For who knows what is good for man while he lives the few days of his vain life, which he passes like a shadow? For who can tell man what will be after him under the sun?

Isa 40:6 A voice says, "Cry!" And I said, "What shall I cry?" All flesh is grass, and all its beauty is like the flower of the field.
Isa 40:7 The grass withers, the flower fades when the breath of the LORD blows on it; surely the people are grass.
Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

 

[Boxmaker]

More of your drastically inflated idea of the importance of humanity. You misinterpret the "all" to mean "every" because you presume great importance upon "every" man. That is the source of your inability to accept the truth of the Bible. You read where God creates vessels of destruction to show forth His wrath, and you dance around it in a hilarious waltz because it seems so.... so... unfair for God to treat such grand beings as humans like that. It is repulsive to you to think that there isn't some valuable spark in men that would enable them to "choose" salvation independent of God's intervening irresistably in their hearts. That would force you to accept your own complete insignificance in creation apart from Christ, and worse, your own wicked hatred for God apart from Christ, and that would burst your bubble of self-importance. So you keep trying to make those blinders fit. As long as your head is swelled enough, they stay on, but as scripture and events begin to reduce that swelling, it gets harder and harder to keep them on. Which is why you keep hanging around this one forum where biblical truth is believed.... you want with all your might to find a way to refute it, but you just can't. If you had, you would have left long ago to go waltz with fellow self-worshippers in other parts of CF.

So you stick around trying to find holes to dig your finger, looking for that chink in the armor, debating incoherently when you find none, because with that you can at least maintain the appearance of valid cause to reject scripture you don't like.

Well, to address your willfully silly and abstract use of a bloodbath to attack biblical truth, Blacksburg is 150 miles down the road from me. I have lifelong friends who taught there, who are alumni, whose children go there, and will go there. I am surrounded by grieving Hokies in my little town, and I take serious umbrage with any chuckleheaded use of the sorrows of my friends to support lying doctrines. Please find some other bone to chew on.

If God thinks so very little of us, why did He bother with saving any of us. Sorry, but I still believe that God thinks that His creation of men is very important to Him.

God gave Adam a job to do in the garden, not the ravens. When Adam broke His promise to God, God set about to redeem men to Him.

 

[Boxmaker]

A decent, partial, explanation but not one whereby someone could say they understand the Trinity after reading it.

In your post #18 you said of the shooting "it was senseless". Do you really believe that?

Yes. God can turn it to the good for those that believe and He has promised to do that. Still, I think it was sensless.

 

[bradfordl]

If God thinks so very little of us, why did He bother with saving any of us. Sorry, but I still believe that God thinks that His creation of men is very important to Him.

God gave Adam a job to do in the garden, not the ravens. When Adam broke His promise to God, God set about to redeem men to Him.

And here is further evidence of the problem. You read entire posts addressing a variety of things and come away with just this one.

All of God's creation is very important to Him, because He created it for the sole purpose of glorifying Himself in it, and His glory is of the utmost importance to Him, as it should be and rightfully is. His creation of men, the redeeming of some, and even the destruction of many, is for His glory as one part of it, not the central aim of it. And your confusion over that is the root of much of your trouble with biblical doctrine. You are not as important as you imagine yourself to be.

God gave Adam a job to do in one teeny part of His whole creation, and he failed at that. But even that was for the ultimate purpose of God's glory.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[bradfordl]

Still, I think it was sensless.

So Paul was lying when he said this:

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[bradfordl]

If God thinks so very little of us, why did He bother with saving any of us.

Just had to address this. He did not bother to save any of us because He thinks anything of us other than that we are evil. He saves some of us for His glory alone. This is what you don't comprehend, and I really wonder why that is.

 

[Boxmaker]

Genesis 1: 26-31
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground." 27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

It would seem that man was created special, indeed, created in God's image and it was very good. Verse like that make it impossible for me to believe that God thinks so little of men, even after the fall. If God saw man as nothing but worthless sinners then He would do well to send us all to the lake of fire and have done with it. The fact that He did not do that leads me to conclude that God still sees men as special to Him.

 

[Elderone]

Box

Regarding your comment that the shooting at VT was senseless, you might wish to reconsider in view of the following:

Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3: Of God’s Eternal Decree

3:1 God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Rom_9:15, Rom_9:18; Rom_11:33; Eph_1:11; Heb_6:17): yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin (Jam_1:13, Jam_1:17; 1Jo_1:5), nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (Pro_16:33; Mat_17:12; Joh_19:11; Act_2:23; Act_4:27, Act_4:28).

Considering anything God's does as being senseless is the height of ego, or just plain ignorance.

Senseless - 1. (adj.) Absurdly foolish:
• ridiculous
• block-headed
• absurd
• clownish
• dizzy
• asinine
• outlandish
• crazy
• daft (chiefly British)
• ludicrous
• fatuous
• nonsensical
• cockamamie (US)
• nuts (colloquial)
• nutty (colloquial)
• outrageous
• preposterous
• silly
• stupid
• zany

Not something I would want to accuse God of.

Remember - Pr 9:10a The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom:

 

[Boxmaker]

Box

Regarding your comment that the shooting at VT was senseless, you might wish to reconsider in view of the following:

Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3: Of God’s Eternal Decree

3:1 God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Rom_9:15, Rom_9:18; Rom_11:33; Eph_1:11; Heb_6:17): yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin (Jam_1:13, Jam_1:17; 1Jo_1:5), nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (Pro_16:33; Mat_17:12; Joh_19:11; Act_2:23; Act_4:27, Act_4:28).

Considering anything God's does as being senseless is the height of ego, or just plain ignorance.

Senseless - 1. (adj.) Absurdly foolish:
• ridiculous
• block-headed
• absurd
• clownish
• dizzy
• asinine
• outlandish
• crazy
• daft (chiefly British)
• ludicrous
• fatuous
• nonsensical
• cockamamie (US)
• nuts (colloquial)
• nutty (colloquial)
• outrageous
• preposterous
• silly
• stupid
• zany

Not something I would want to accuse God of.

Remember - Pr 9:10a The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom:

I never said not implied that God is responsible in any way for the shootings. God did not predestine those shootings.

 

[MrGoodbar]

Box,

No one is saying that God thinks we are nothing. God obviously loves a great deal. He created us in His image, and His love was enough to sacrifice Jesus Christ in order to save us.

That said, though God IS love, there is nothing to compel God to instantly, or at any time, reveal His plan to us. We are presumptuous to think that He will do so, and to believe that after any horrific situation, He owes us, his creation, an explanation.

At the crucifiction of Christ, the disciples were devastated and horrified. God revealed His glory to them, but at the moment of Crucifiction, they could not have seen ANY glory in it.

 

[Elderone]

Quote
Originally Posted by Elderone
Box

Regarding your comment that the shooting at VT was senseless, you might wish to reconsider in view of the following:

Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3: Of God’s Eternal Decree

3:1 God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Rom_9:15, Rom_9:18; Rom_11:33; Eph_1:11; Heb_6:17): yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin (Jam_1:13, Jam_1:17; 1Jo_1:5), nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (Pro_16:33; Mat_17:12; Joh_19:11; Act_2:23; Act_4:27, Act_4:28).

Considering anything God's does as being senseless is the height of ego, or just plain ignorance.

Senseless - 1. (adj.) Absurdly foolish:
• ridiculous
• block-headed
• absurd
• clownish
• dizzy
• asinine
• outlandish
• crazy
• daft (chiefly British)
• ludicrous
• fatuous
• nonsensical
• cockamamie (US)
• nuts (colloquial)
• nutty (colloquial)
• outrageous
• preposterous
• silly
• stupid
• zany

Not something I would want to accuse God of.

Remember - Pr 9:10a The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom:

I never said not implied that God is responsible in any way for the shootings. God did not predestine those shootings.

 

[heymikey80]

If we are not supposed to see the Glory [of God] in this, then... what?

First, the damage sin does to people like us.

Second, the greatness of the Sinless One.

Third, the depth of sin we are entangled in.

Fourth, the depth to which Christ reached to save us.

Fifth, the greatness of God's power to save without corruption of sin.

Sixth, the coming judgment on all who consider evil in their hearts.

I'm sure there are even more. Do they include glorifying God? Sure.

That [Lk 13] doesn't really apply here. If God predestined these to show His glory, why would He hide that glory by only showing it when He judges the shooter? He did not do that with Pharo. He used Pharo to show His glory. Pharo considered himself a god. God clearly revealed to Pharo what God is. He lead Israel out of bondage.

Um, it applies quite well actually. God didn't reveal that glory among those on whom the tower fell, nor on those whose blood was mixed with their sacrifices. The denial doesn't really make any sense. It applies.

To require every action of corrupt men to reveal God's glory full-blown is to expect the Infinite to fit into a single limited event. Good luck with that -- you'll never find it. And if you do manage to fit a god into one event, you'll find Him quite small indeed.

Thats disturbing. God only loves the elect and turely hates the rest. Not a passave hate, mind you, but God activly hates them.

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. Mt 8:44-45

​

 

[Boxmaker]

Quote
Originally Posted by Elderone
Box

Regarding your comment that the shooting at VT was senseless, you might wish to reconsider in view of the following:

Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3: Of God’s Eternal Decree

3:1 God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Rom_9:15, Rom_9:18; Rom_11:33; Eph_1:11; Heb_6:17): yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin (Jam_1:13, Jam_1:17; 1Jo_1:5), nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (Pro_16:33; Mat_17:12; Joh_19:11; Act_2:23; Act_4:27, Act_4:28).

Considering anything God's does as being senseless is the height of ego, or just plain ignorance.

Senseless - 1. (adj.) Absurdly foolish:
• ridiculous
• block-headed
• absurd
• clownish
• dizzy
• asinine
• outlandish
• crazy
• daft (chiefly British)
• ludicrous
• fatuous
• nonsensical
• cockamamie (US)
• nuts (colloquial)
• nutty (colloquial)
• outrageous
• preposterous
• silly
• stupid
• zany

Not something I would want to accuse God of.

Remember - Pr 9:10a The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom:

The shootings were senseless. As God was not responsible for the shooting in any way, I have no problem saying the shooting was senseless.

Senseless
adjective
1. not marked by the use of reason; "mindless violence"; "reasonless hostility"; "a senseless act" [syn: mindless]
2. unresponsive to stimulation; "he lay insensible where he had fallen"; "drugged and senseless" [syn: insensible]
3. serving no useful purpose; having no excuse for being; "otiose lines in a play"; "advice is wasted words"; "a pointless remark"; "a life essentially purposeless"; "senseless violence" [syn: otiose]
4. (of especially persons) lacking sense or understanding or judgment [syn: nitwitted]

 

[heymikey80]

I never said not implied that God is responsible in any way for the shootings. God did not predestine those shootings.

To what extent would you take this? If God can't control actions of people in this creation, then He's certainly not going to be able to make those kinds of promises in the next.

And if those actions should not have occurred for any good purpose, and God could control those actions -- and didn't -- He'd be malevolent and neglectful.

To me we're either talking about someone not powerful enough to be God, or not good enough to be worshipped as God.

 

[Boxmaker]

To what extent would you take this? If God can't control actions of people in this creation, then He's certainly not going to be able to make those kinds of promises in the next.

That conclusion is not supported by your statement. God does not need to control peoples actions in order to fulfill any promise He makes. God says what He will do and He does it. Period.

And if those actions should not have occurred for any good purpose, and God could control those actions -- and didn't -- He'd be malevolent and neglectful.

Again, your logic is faulty. God does not control people, He leaves us to make choices, even when those choices have negative impacts on those around them. For the believer, God will work the evil for their good. For the unbeliever there is no such promise. God letting us live out our free will does not make God malevolent, it makes Him God.

To me we're either talking about someone not powerful enough to be God, or not good enough to be worshipped as God.

Then you don't understand God's power. Gods power is absolute and without the requirement to ordain everything to be so. Is God so weak that the only way He can make His will come to be is to unchangeable ordain everything? If so, then God unchangeably ordained the shootings. What ever the reason, God ordained that they would happen just as they happened or the Westminster is false.